Stat x Change for a Spy x Family

[Qawsedf234]

Twilight is very likely superior,

Very likely isn't the same as confirmed to be better than though.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Very likely isn't the same as confirmed to be better than though.

It can be interpreted as such. Aka, it's pretty much confirmed. He was stated more than once to be the best agent there, and has shown to keep up with a serious Yor in speed at least. (Although he was eventually going to be overwhelmed). While Fiona can't even perceive Yor at full strength.

At least in speed, Loid being faster than Fiona is fine.

 

[KobsterHope07]

So basically;

• Loid's LS will now to be comparable to Fiona
• The justification of Loid's speed will change to "Capable of reacting and dodging attacks from Yor, although he was slowly getting overwhelmed by them" or something like that

 

[Qawsedf234]

has shown to keep up with a serious Yor in

If you mean the castle thing then she was so hammered that her missing a kick was enough to knock herself out and she consistently shows issues with controlling herself with alcohol.

I wouldn't use that as justification that he's superior to Nightfall.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

If you mean the castle thing then she was so hammered that her missing a kick was enough to knock herself out and she consistently shows issues with controlling herself with alcohol.

I wouldn't use that as justification that he's superior to Nightfall.

She slipped and went to sleep because she was drunk, it has nothing to do with the speed of her attacks. Alcohol doesn't hinder her speed, or martial arts at all. In some cases, it can make people stronger (due to adrenaline, since alcohol can make you more aggressive, which is definitely Yor's case).

 

[Qawsedf234]

it has nothing to do with the speed of her attacks.

If it inhibits areas like control, emotions and other physical areas then it will influence her speed.

Considering that Loid doesn't have anything close to Yor physically at the moment, to suggest that he avoided some of her drunk attacks to suggest he's > Nightfall speed wise is just baseless. He's comparable to her considering all of the tennis arc stuff, but the only way I can see you putting her above her is using his offscreen training with Yor. But we have no idea how it went, just that Loid was not confident in NIghtfall defeating her.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

If it inhibits areas like control, emotions and other physical areas then it will influence her speed.

Again, that is not a given, as I linked to the last person who brought up this point. The effects of alcohol are variable depending on a person's tolerance, personality, and experience with the substance. Yor, on top of being resistant to ill effects of intoxication (Blowfish Poison only acts as a pain killer), has also proven that physically, she is not affected by the intoxication of the alcohol. She can perform acrobatic moves, and martial arts normally, so her motion control is vastly intact.
You, friend, have little to no reason to assume Yor's physically impaired because of the alcohol. I, on the other hand, have all the reasons to believe the alcohol would have another effect, also common on people, that is to give the person adrenaline and aggressiveness, which would make them stronger.
Also, alcohol making a person strong is a very commonly Japanese troupe.

Loid is not too far behind in speed, thus, should be above Fiona, who is helpless.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yor, on top of being resistant to ill effects of intoxication (Blowfish Poison only acts as a pain killer), has also proven that physically, she is not affected by the intoxication of the alcohol.

Yes she is

• One glass causes her to massively slur her words and attack Loid for getting to close to her
• That alcoholic drink with the blowfish poison caused her to forget everything the previous night
• One wine bottle was enough to get her incredibly drunk and pass up when she fell
• Her entire family was noted by Loid to be bad drunks
• A single gulp of alcohol was enough to make her not sober

Yor belongs to a rom-com series. She has a consistent and debilitating weakness to alcohol and her cooking skills are bad enough to legitimately kill animals.

Loid is not too far behind in speed

I'm not seeing solid evidence here, especially since the only time he ever dealt with her speed was when she was black out drunk and passed out soon afterwards.

Plus I'm not even suggesting you change his speed rating. Just alter a line to be "Comparable to Nightfall".

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yes she is

Sigh...

• One glass causes her to massively slur her words and attack Loid for getting to close to her

has also proven that physically, she is not affected by the intoxication of the alcohol.

• That alcoholic drink with the blowfish poison caused her to forget everything the previous night

physically, she is not affected by the intoxication of the alcohol.

• One wine bottle was enough to get her incredibly drunk and pass up when she fell

physically, she is not affected by alcohol.

• Her entire family was noted by Loid to be bad drunks

physically, she is not affected.

• A single gulp of alcohol was enough to make her not sober

physically.

I do not have to explain why the points you addressed are not in any way, shape or form a counter-claim to what I've said. You do know I was referring to cognitive and motor controls, regarding reflexe, and overall finesse when fighting, and that none of these even attempt to address her showcasing outstanding proficiency on these aspects despite her state.

This was all a bunch of nothing. I know Yor is mentally affected by alcohol, that still doesn't result in a lower attacking speed for an drunk-empowered agressive Yor.

I'm not seeing solid evidence here, especially since the only time he ever dealt with her speed was when she was black out drunk and passed out soon afterwards.

Plus I'm not even suggesting you change his speed rating. Just alter a line to be "Comparable to Nightfall".

Loid keeping up with agressive Yor is the solid evidence, you're just disregarding it based on confirmation bias, and false equivalency.

I am contending you on the justification of the speed rating, yes. Because "Comparable to Nightfall" is flat out incorrect.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I do not have to explain why the points you addressed are not in any way

But you completely missed what I responding to there

not affected by the intoxication of the alcohol.

She is physically effected by the alcohol, something you claimed she wasn't. She loses almost all emotional control and consistently blacks out from alcohol.

. You do know

I didn't. I thought you were talking about her resistance to the effects of alcohol which is why I lined up multiple anti-feats showing she has negative resistances to alcohol.

Because "Comparable to Nightfall" is flat out incorrect.

Being comparable to Nightfall is shown in the Tennis Arc. Superior to Nightfall relies on scaling to an inebriated Yor who passed out in the very next set of panels. The speed is fine to keep, but using Yor to justify Loid as being superior to Nightfall is not in my view.

The changes can be applied, I just suggested the wording for his speed to have a single word changed. If people agree with your view then sure, you can keep it as its written now.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

But you completely missed what I responding to there

She is physically effected by the alcohol, something you claimed she wasn't. She loses almost all emotional control and consistently blacks out from alcohol.

I didn't. I thought you were talking about her resistance to the effects of alcohol which is why I lined up multiple anti-feats showing she has negative resistances to alcohol.

You were responding to no one, then. I personally believe I left enough context clues to give you understanding on what I was talking about, such as;

• "She can perform acrobatic moves, and martial arts normally, so her motion control is vastly intact. You, friend, have little to no reason to assume Yor's physically impaired because of the alcohol"
• "it has nothing to do with the speed of her attacks. Alcohol doesn't hinder her speed, or martial arts at all. In some cases, it can make people stronger"
• "has shown to keep up with a serious Yor in speed at least."

The topic was clearly how her movements were not affected by these things. It would be nonsensical for me to bring up how her mental state is while she is drunk, as that has no impact on her overall combat speed. Thus, responding with your replies doesn't really impact my claims, although it was just a case of misunderstanding this time around.

Being comparable to Nightfall is shown in the Tennis Arc. Superior to Nightfall relies on scaling to an inebriated Yor who passed out in the very next set of panels. The speed is fine to keep, but using Yor to justify Loid as being superior to Nightfall is not in my view.

The changes can be applied, I just suggested the wording for his speed to have a single word changed. If people agree with your view then sure, you can keep it as its written now.

Sorry to say, but given how Yor has shown to be as physically capable in combat as before, I do not believe that should outright discard this scaling.

Again, it might be a singular word, but accuracy is something we should aim to preserve. This example might be extreme to this case, but to illustrate why a singular word might be the difference between a incoherent rating to an accurate one, replacing "Planet level" to "Universe level" is just a singular word apart as well. Of course, as I said, it is a rather extreme example, but one that illustrates my point very well, the words have different implications, and the one with the more coherence to the story is the one we should strive for.
I do not need to say that, Loid keeping up with her during the Tennis Arc is not really a hint to him being limited to her level. (Fiona was also try-harding, as seen with her damaged hands, while Loid was not)

Thus, I suggest the wording should be something similar to this.

"Speed: Supersonic+ (Kept with a serious Yor for some time, although he was eventually going to be overwhelmed by her, thus, should be somewhat superior to Fiona who couldn't perceive Yor's movement at full strength. His status as Westalis' best agent should also be indicative of his superiority)"

Or a better version of this. I am not fluent in English, so the way I word things might sound unnatural

 

[Qawsedf234]

Of course, as I said, it is a rather extreme example, but one that illustrates my

It doesn't, because you're using a straw man example of a 3-A vs 5-B Tiering rating vs me saying to change one word to "comparable to Nightfall". Your example is not about us being accurate but actively using the incorrect tier for something. It would only apply if I suggested a speed change for Twilight, which I never did.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

It doesn't, because you're using a straw man example of a 3-A vs 5-B Tiering rating vs me saying to change one word to "comparable to Nightfall". Your example is not about us being accurate but actively using the incorrect tier for something. It would only apply if I suggested a speed change for Twilight, which I never did.

"Your example is not about accuracy, but about inaccuracy of a tier for something"

My example illustrates the point, but if you're actively trying to miss it, then it becomes difficult to accomplish this task.

example of a 3-A vs 5-B Tiering rating vs me saying to change one word to "comparable to Nightfall".

The example was trying to say "one word can change the whole implication of the justification", the tiers themselves are not part of the point here, they are just for illustration, and do not apply to your scenario. The take away applies to your scenario. I feel like you do not know what an example is supposed to accomplish.

"Big inaccuracy isn't the same as little inaccuracy" is redudant. Obviously it isn't the same. They're even inaccurate about different subjects altogether, but my point is on their resemblance, which is the fact they are inaccurate in the first place because of a singular word. Again, make an attempt to see my point before you reply, please... Either way, I do not intend to convince you any longer.

 

[KobsterHope07]

So, have we come to agreement on Loid’s rating/justifications

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So, have we come to agreement on Loid’s rating/justifications

Not quite. Since @Qawsedf234 is a staff, we'd need opinions from other staff to see if they agree with me, or them.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So, have we come to agreement on Loid’s rating/justifications

The ratings are fine, I've said that before.

I just wanted a word changed from "Superior to" to "Comparable to" since we don't really have any hard evidence for his speed superiority in my view.

 

[KobsterHope07]

So the changes to Loid's profile can be implemented. I probably do after this thread is over so I can do both at the same time

 

[KobsterHope07]

I have updated Loid's profile as well as updated the Verse Page so it would displayed the calculations

 

[pogo]

Yeah