Star Wars Revision: Godly Sith Lords (Legends)

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Hey since we're mentioning Mace Windu, the canon version of him has a calc (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...tar_Wars:_Yet_another_lightning_blocking_feat) of him being Massively Hypersonic+. It was already accepted by Assaltwaffle, but it wasn't used yet. I believe it scales to at least all the High 7-A Jedis.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I need Matt to look through the change i have on Sidious.

As for the speed one that's MFTL+, i'm not even 100% sure if that's only Dark Empire Sidious alone or something. Though considering that this took place after his "physical" death in the death star of the Legends version of the story, that might be the case.

Either way, i need him to look over it but for now the change has finally been done on him so...yeah///

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The edits seem fine. Although I have to see some things on with Ever.

 

[Js250476]

You could probably also list he's superior to Vitiate for speed to

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@Js: If Matt gives a yes to that after his talk with Ever or whatever, i can do so with it.

 

[Js250476]

Okay I thought everyone agreed to Sidious being superior to Vitiate tho unless it's a different issue

 

[SaiyanSage]

Not a bad list my friend my only critiscism is the Windu possibly being 4-B part, since the novelisation claims Sidious held back against Mace and oneshot him when he was going serious (Still tho Dooku scaling to Mace could be interesting)

But we have to consider how much Sidious was holding back, given the nature of Vaapad and Palpatine's own knowledge of it, I would too agree that he was holding back but it reminds me of the 'Vader being at 80% of Sidious' power' quote which is not a bad comparison either way lol. Essentially Windu could be 80% of Sidious' power, though the question would stand of whether or not Vaapad should contribute to that 80% mark. Though also remember that Anakin disarmed Windu and he was distracted from that pain when Sidious shot his full-powered lightning before knocking him through the window.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@Js: That could be by power. I didn't quite follow if it was also in terms of speed though that actually would make a whole lot of sense. I just dk what Ever and Matt thinks of that.

That and it would fit quite a lot with this part if he was that fast like Vitate like here: "Effortlessly struck down several Jedi Masters before they could react. Moved with such speed that Anakin Skywalker viewed him as fading out of existence"

 

[Js250476]

So in that case just discuss it with Matt and Ever and see if it's okay then

 

[Dziga]

Where did that 80% quote came from? I always forget.

 

[Js250476]

From George Lucas iirc

 

[SaiyanSage]

Where did that 80% quote came from? I always forget.

George Lucas made the statement that Vader was 80% of Sidious' power, where specifically escapes me...

 

[Dziga]

I don't know about you guys but I'd like to see Large Star+ level Vader... Althought I know it's not happening.

 

[SaiyanSage]

I don't know about you guys but I'd like to see Large Star+ level Vader... Althought I know it's not happening.

Technically Vader could even get the Solar System tier since he is still part of the Rule of Two, and thus, should scale to Sidious. At the very least, he gets the Planet tier scaling for certain because Vader is stronger than Bane.

 

[Js250476]

Sidious kinda broke the Rule of Two tho with becoming the strongest Sith ever and all that stuff

 

[Hellbeast1]

@Saiyan I'd be hesitant to claim that Windu is in the same tier as Sidious the reason for this is Windu has been shown to be roughly on equal grounds to Dooku who is miles behind Sidious and Anakin. Considering Anakin heavily injured him in one hit (Cheap Shot but still) this makes me think Windu is probably closer to the Low 5-B level of the scale rather then 4-B.

 

[Js250476]

Mace should still be Tier 4 tho I feel he's still somewhat comparable to Sidious and he's comparable to Mother talzin and he should be above Brakiss I think

 

[Hellbeast1]

@Saiyan I doubt Vader is anywhere close to Palpatine (At Vader's strongest he was pretty much killed by a shockwave and some lightning from Sheev). Plus as JS says Sidious is an exception to the rule of two (with his power and trying to be immortal and all that)

 

[SaiyanSage]

Sidious kinda broke the Rule of Two tho with becoming the strongest Sith ever and all that stuff

True, but it was because of that chain that Bane started with the Rule of Two that caused Palpatine to be the strongest of all time. Even then, Plagueis could've been the strongest if he properly learned the Midi-Chlorian Manipulation.

But the point is that Palpatine still invoked the Rule of Two when he chose Vader as his apprentice, even if Vader would've served more as an enforcer. So Vader at least should be considered for the similar scaling, as Vader should be able to contend with the likes of Windu and Dooku, more so than Yoda and Sidious directly.

 

[SaiyanSage]

@Saiyan I'd be hesitant to claim that Windu is in the same tier as Sidious the reason for this is Windu has been shown to be roughly on equal grounds to Dooku who is miles behind Sidious and Anakin. Considering Anakin heavily injured him in one hit (Cheap Shot but still) this makes me think Windu is probably closer to the Low 5-B level of the scale rather then 4-B.

Which is why I considered the question of whether or not Vaapad should be taken account during the fight on Windu's behalf. As Vaapad channels the inner darkness within Windu, Mace also had a superconducting loop within Sidious forming a complete circle of power for Windu to manifest.

In the case of Dooku, I don't disagree, but at the same time Dooku would have no reason during the time of the Clone Wars to challenge Palpatine as their goals were aligned. Even then, the Count was roughly 15-20 years older than Palpatine so it would've foolish for him to even try and challenge his master as he probably would've died shortly to old age.

 

[SaiyanSage]

@Saiyan I doubt Vader is anywhere close to Palpatine (At Vader's strongest he was pretty much killed by a shockwave and some lightning from Sheev). Plus as JS says Sidious is an exception to the rule of two (with his power and trying to be immortal and all that)

Still, he is at Dooku and Windu's level, who are still close to Yoda and Sidious. Though the argument stands between Dooku and Yoda is that the Grandmaster held back, which he did.

Vader's death was more in line with the lightning as Sheev did design that failure into the suit specifically, so that kinda makes sense more so than the shockwaves lol.

Here's probably the most accurate scaling I can think of at the moment:

Solar System:

Sidious

Yoda

Mace Windu (aamped via Vaapad)

Star:

Dooku (should be more powerful than Naga Sadow's Sith Crosiar via being the apprentice of Sidious for ten years, having been considered amongst the greatest of the Jedi Order's history)

Mace Windu (normally)

Planet:

The Jedi Council members

Quinlan Vos/Anyone within range of a Council members' powers


Anakin Skywalker is a bit tricker to pinpoint but at the very least he is within the Planet tier normally as he's been able to contend with Dooku at various points during the Clone Wars. At the start of ROTS, he should be likely Star level for outmatching and killing Dooku, thus placing the accolades of Skywalker being the most powerful Jedi of his era with merit and credit. By the time of the Mustafar duel, as Vader, he should be solidily ahead of every Force senstitive par Yoda and Sidious, possibly even Windu, but the emotional and mental toll of Skywalker hinders him.

 

[Js250476]

And Luke should be Solar System to for obvious reasons

 

[SaiyanSage]

Hence why I didn't include him ;p. Techincally any of the Skywalker's are at the Celestial level, given enough time and training, as Luke himself was able to harm Abeloth.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

I agree with Dooku's and Windu's rating proposed by SayainSage


Vader should also be there as he is canonically > Dooku

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

This needs to be analyzed further, if Vader's getting upgraded then all the ancient Sith lords will by default an so will many other characters from the Old Republic

 

[SaiyanSage]

This needs to be analyzed further, if Vader's getting upgraded then all the ancient Sith lords will by default an so will many other characters from the Old Republic

The Old Republic era isn't really that much different from the Prequel era, they just have more access to ancient artifacts and such.

The average Jedi/Sith can still scale to Multi-Continent, anyone on the Old Republic Council can scale, possibly, to Planet tier. Satele Shan would be the only exception to the Solar System tier as defaulted to Yoda and Sidious respectively. We would need to see how she would fare to the likes of Windu and Dooku to see if she qualifies for a Star tier, given she is a descendent of Revan it is likely altough she could end up at a base Planet tier as well.

The ancient Sith Lord Marka Ragnos should scale to Star as even Ragnos should be superior to Sadow's binary star explosion as Sadow had to use the Sith Crosiar to accomplish this feat. On the other hand, there isn't too much on that era specifically, most of the information really stems once Exar Kun enters the picture onward.

Oh, Darth Plagueis should automatically scale to Solar System tier as he was the Master to Sidious by the time of The Phantom Menace, thus again the Rule of Two should make the scaling in alignment with Sidious' power. Even Tenebrae should get a 'Star, possibly Solar System tier' because of this too.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I agree with SaiyanSage.

 

[SaiyanSage]

I agree with Dooku's and Windu's rating proposed by SayainSage

Vader should also be there as he is canonically > Dooku

Thanks!

True, and that's fair in regards to Dooku.

I think that scaling I made is probably the best for what the Star Wars page could follow on for future reference... Lol, patting myself on the shoulder much? X'D.

Oh, and the average Jedi Kight and/or Master should scale to the Multi-Continent tier.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I agree with scaling Plagueis and Tenebrous to Sidious, though the latter should be just likely 4-B. Tenebrous sought of Plageuis' power in contempt. He believed himself much stronger than Plageuis. Though he eventually realized Plageuis was stronger than he had thought, he still believed himself above his apprentice. He should thus be at the very least comparable to Plageuis.

Plageuis himself was reffered to as the strongest Sith to have ever lived. While this is likely hyperbole, it still speaks volumes to his power: He knew things even Sidious did not know; he unlocked the secret to immortality, and his death weakened over 10 thousand Jedi across the galaxy, putting him above the likes of the Valley of the Jedi, which is the spirit of 1 thousand Jedi.

Marka Ragnos was stated to beable to crush Naga Sadow. And this was as a weakened spirit. He also challeneged Plagueis' claim to the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, againt, as a spirit. He was famed for his power, being by far the strongest Sith in that age.

Also, if we acknoeledge Sith of that age could be comparable to Rule of Two era Sith, it opens the way for scaling Karness Muur to at least High 4-C. As far as I am aware, Karness Muur doesn't scale to anyone except for Ragnos, so it wouldn't cause any problems.

Here is what I think:

• Karness Muur: At least High 4-C

• Tenebrous: At least High 4-C, likely 4-B

• Marka Ragnos: At least High 4-C, likely 4-B

• Plageuis: 4-B

Also, is this off-topic? Should I start a seperate thread?

Does this make sense. I don't really feel that strongly about it, so I am wondering if it is legitimate. Also, does Karness Muur scale to anyone I am not aware of?

 

[Js250476]

Just curious how high is Brakiss tier wise? Cause I was wondering how many characters should scale to him

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

@Master I see your reasoning could make sense,but if Marka Ragnoss and co. get upgraded to High 4-C or 4-B the likes of Tulak Hord would be upgraded accordingly which in turn bumps Darth Nox and Darth Thanaton to 4-B as well. I believe this would cause massive inconsistencies

 

[MasterOfArda]

Why would Tulak be upgraded?

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

@Master he's comparable to Ludo Kresh, Exar Kun and other ancient sith lords

 

[MasterOfArda]

Ah.

Okay.

 

[SaiyanSage]

I agree with scaling Plagueis and Tenebrous to Sidious, though the latter should be just likely 4-B. Tenebrous sought of Plageuis' power in contempt. He believed himself much stronger than Plageuis. Though he eventually realized Plageuis was stronger than he had thought, he still believed himself above his apprentice. He should thus be at the very least comparable to Plageuis.
Plageuis himself was reffered to as the strongest Sith to have ever lived. While this is likely hyperbole, it still speaks volumes to his power: He knew things even Sidious did not know; he unlocked the secret to immortality, and his death weakened over 10 thousand Jedi across the galaxy, putting him above the likes of the Valley of the Jedi, which is the spirit of 1 thousand Jedi.

Marka Ragnos was stated to beable to crush Naga Sadow. And this was as a weakened spirit. He also challeneged Plagueis' claim to the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, againt, as a spirit. He was famed for his power, being by far the strongest Sith in that age.

Also, if we acknoeledge Sith of that age could be comparable to Rule of Two era Sith, it opens the way for scaling Karness Muur to at least High 4-C. As far as I am aware, Karness Muur doesn't scale to anyone except for Ragnos, so it wouldn't cause any problems.

Here is what I think:

• Karness Muur: At least High 4-C

• Tenebrous: At least High 4-C, likely 4-B

• Marka Ragnos: At least High 4-C, likely 4-B

• Plageuis: 4-B

Also, is this off-topic? Should I start a seperate thread?

Does this make sense. I don't really feel that strongly about it, so I am wondering if it is legitimate. Also, does Karness Muur scale to anyone I am not aware of?

Hm, I don't see it as off-topic. If Vitiate and Sidous are gonna be changed from their previous tier, then anyone associated with their power will also be affected too. Sidious' power reflects the Rule of Two era, Prequel era, and Clone Wars era. Vititate's power reflects the Old Republic era, as Vitiate was almost two thousand years old by that point, Marka Ragnos given comended on Vitiate's power when the latter was only 13 years old.

Honestly I see Karness Muur scaling closer to Naga Sadow than Marka Ragnos considering all things. Murr was more of a healer and sorcerer, much in the same way as Sadow himself. The only other contention of Muur's power was when Vader was looking for Muur's talisman in hopes of overthrowing Sidious, but Vader was unsure if the talisman could overthrow the Emperor as Vader didn't know the full power of Palpatine.

Going a bit further into the past, Tulak Hord has a feat of pulling a massive ship from the sky. Which mirrors a similar power Dooku himself has done before, so at the very least the elite Ancient Sith Lords could scale to Dooku's feat as reference. I'll go into more detail later if you like.

 

[SaiyanSage]

Just curious how high is Brakiss tier wise? Cause I was wondering how many characters should scale to him

There isn't much to say on Brakiss, not that he's weak as he dueled with Luke Skywalker twice in combat but he's used his Force power in more manipulative ways.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Honestly I see Karness Muur scaling closer to Naga Sadow than Marka Ragnos considering all things. Murr was more of a healer and sorcerer, much in the same way as Sadow himself. The only other contention of Muur's power was when Vader was looking for Muur's talisman in hopes of overthrowing Sidious, but Vader was unsure if the talisman could overthrow the Emperor as Vader didn't know the full power of Palpatine.

Still, it implies Karness was somewhat comparable to the emperor.

 

[SaiyanSage]

Honestly I see Karness Muur scaling closer to Naga Sadow than Marka Ragnos considering all things. Murr was more of a healer and sorcerer, much in the same way as Sadow himself. The only other contention of Muur's power was when Vader was looking for Muur's talisman in hopes of overthrowing Sidious, but Vader was unsure if the talisman could overthrow the Emperor as Vader didn't know the full power of Palpatine.

Still, it implies Karness was somewhat comparable to the emperor.

Honestly that speaks more the Emperor's power than it does Murr's, since Vader didn't know the full capacity of Sidious' strength in comparison to Murr's talisman. Vader assumed it would be enough, though the likely case would be that it would backfire on Vader and force Sidious to his apprentice for his betrayal. Which goes back to the OP stating that Sidious and Vitiate are the Avatars of the Dark side/Dark side incarnate.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Okay. But what about Plageuis and Tenebrous?

 

[SaiyanSage]

Plagueis for sure gets the Solar System tier. Tenebrous should be 'likely 4-B'.