Standard Format for Verse-Specific P&As Proposal

[Bobsican]

Yeah, I'm getting complaints off-site on the lack of one, especially as we're starting to get rather unusual sections for this kind of pages.

What this thread aims to do is to gather feedback on this draft, publish it, then modify the current Verse-Specific P&A pages to then fit it over time.

 

[Psychomaster35]

This should be fine, but assuming there are various subspecies/subtypes inheriting the common abilities everyone shares that have unique abilities, wouldn’t it make sense to list users for each of those subspecies/subtypes so we can get a better understanding of who gets what?

For example, we have X Ability with subtypes Y Ability and Z Ability. Notable users of Y Ability would be A, B, and C, while Notable users of Z Ability would be D, E, and F.

 

[Bobsican]

That's covered in the Types section, and is then explained further in the Powers and Abilities section as explained there. It's just labeled as optional as naturally not all verse-specific P&As are that complicated.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looking alright so far.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

I believe it should be said, the complaints he's refering to is him insisting someone's page was wrong because it went into an explanation of how the power worked rather then only what it did

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Shadowbokunohero @Ogurtsow @Crazylatin77 @Zaratthustra @Just_a_Random_Butler @ElixirBlue @Tllmbrg @Nehz_XZX @Agnaa @Dereck03 @Marvel_Champion_07

What do you think about this?

 

[azontr]

I was given permission by @Deagonx to comment here, as I have a very passionate disagreement with a specific aspect of this draft.

Information such as how it's obtained, prerequisites for it, or terminology shouldn't be listed deeply here as they pertain topics that reach too outside the focus of the site.

as others that are merely divided by political or cosmetic aspects and the like are unecessary for indexing purposes.

As you may already know from our debate @Bobsican last night, I do not at all agree with discouraging a profile to be descriptive in the functions of a Power System, how it is obtained, etc. Not only do several pages already do this without opposition, but we should not be discouraging a page creator to be detailed and thorough in anything.

I believe it is most effective to make this an optional standard; A profile creator should have the ability to freely detail their page with the functions of an ability, just as a Summary in a character profile will detail a character's backstory, which doesn't NEED to be indexed, but is still there. At the same time, leaving the pages that do not do this in tandem with those that do is also okay in terms of indexing.

 

[Antvasima]

azontr does seems to make good points above. However, thread moderators are only allowed to let regular members to each submit a single relevant post to our staff forum.

 

[azontr]

azontr does seems to make good points above. However, thread moderators are only allowed to let regular members to each submit a single relevant post to our staff forum.

@Deagonx did do just that. The above post was meant to be my only input on this topic without further permission from a higher staff member.

Just clarifying that, sorry if this counts as breaching that boundary.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. I was just making a reminder, in case you did not know.

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

To be fair, I have talked about Verse-specific format with Bob already.

So, I definitely support the implementation of a standard format for these types of pages, especially considering that we already have Verse-specific ability pages with varying appearances. I believe that establishing uniformity would be really beneficial.

But I have a question, Bob. Are you suggesting that in the Summary section, we should not include detailed information about how the ability is obtained, prerequisites, or terminology, but it would be allowed in other sections of the page? Or are you implying that such information is not allowed anywhere on the page?

If it's the latter, I have mixed feelings about excluding this information entirely. While I agree that the summary should be concise and not overwhelmed with excessive details (hence "summary"), completely omitting such information seems a bit unusual. Maybe we could explore the possibility of creating a separate section specifically dedicated to things such as prerequisites, and how they are obtained instead?

 

[Antvasima]

Can you investigate how our current verse-specific powers and ability pages are structured, in order to see if this fits well with Bobsican's suggested format in practice? I think that we should preferably adapt his suggested format according what has already been established, rather than try to heavily revise most or all of the pages in question for no good reason.

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

Can you investigate how our current verse-specific powers and ability pages are structured, in order to see if this fits well with Bobsican's suggested format in practice? I think that we should preferably adapt his suggested format according what has already been established, rather than try to heavily revise most or all of the pages in question for no good reason.

All I can say is, the way most of these verse-specific powers and abilities are structured right now, they definitely deviate from Bobsican's suggested format.

In Bob's draft, he has 4 headers: the Summary, Types (Optional), Powers and Abilities, and Users.

Due to time constraints, I wasn't able to personally visit all Verse-specific Powers and Abilities (P&A) pages. However, I did review a significant number, approximately 10-20 or more. Based on my observations, it is evident that the majority of these pages deviate from the suggested heading structure and instead employ their own distinct approaches to organizing their heading sections.

Examples of pages that I think are too different from what Bob suggested (Not that I am not criticizing the pages, I personally think that most of the verse-specific pages are well-written, I'm just listing them here):
Aethyr Manipulation (Warhammer Fantasy)
Alchemy (Fullmetal Alchemist)
Aura (RWBY)
Nen (HxH)
Haki (One Piece)
Slayer Magic (Fairy Tail)
Honkai Energy (Honkai Impact)

Some pages do somewhat follow or do have a structure that is similar to what Bobsican suggested, but they either lack some parts, have some sections/headings swapped around, or have some additional sections, for example:
Truths (Umineko no Naku Koro ni)
Light Hawk Wings (Tenchi Muyo)
Dynamax (Pokemon)
Heart (Kingdom Hearts) (This one's really close, it's just lacking the Users section)

The majority of verse pages currently adopt a different approach by listing the types as the main headings, unlike Bob's proposed format where the types would be listed under a dedicated "Types" section. Additionally, I've reviewed approximately 12 or 13 physiology pages that somehow have the verse-specific P&A categories, and I can say that their structures definitely vary significantly.

Do the pages fit well with Bobsican's suggested format in practice? While I personally believe it is possible to modify the pages to adhere to Bob's proposed format, the level of effort required may vary. Some pages currently lack a section listing the users of the specific ability (or some other sections for that matter), so revising them to conform to Bob's format would depend on the willingness and availability of verse supporters (As I think there are certain sections that can only be completed by them). Also, what about the Physiology pages that have the same verse-specific category?

Also, @Bobsican, would the Weakness part of the ability be also accommodated by the "Powers and Abilities" heading section, or not?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that we need to revise Bobsican's suggested format then, make it considerably less restrictive, and probably allow for several layout options as well.

 

[Bobsican]

I was given permission by @Deagonx to comment here, as I have a very passionate disagreement with a specific aspect of this draft.

As you may already know from our debate @Bobsican last night, I do not at all agree with discouraging a profile to be descriptive in the functions of a Power System, how it is obtained, etc. Not only do several pages already do this without opposition, but we should not be discouraging a page creator to be detailed and thorough in anything.

Eh, multiple wrongs don't make a right, there were barely any standards before and so users could do almost anything, someone even thought verse-specific P&As were no different from explanation pages, for instance.

Also, thing is that in such cases very often we get bloated with information that is too irrelevant for our purposes, we're not going to pull a Codex and list a in-depth description of a good portion of a series in a page that doesn't describe stuff that'd pertain the statistics of the characters (in fact, this is an issue I find in some verse pages too, which are often complained on off-site out of being unecessarily large), and the pages you've linked are in fact good examples of this issue, being a bit all over the place and confusing for visitors, more isn't always better.

Basically nothing gets even compromised for our purposes if this stuff gets skipped, anything that'd properly pertain the capabilities of a character would be actually indexed somewhere, rather than just broadly said expecting visitors to inherently be aware of what it'd fall as, by that logic we wouldn't have Powers and Abilities to begin with and instead just link scans of all a character has shown like off-site respect threads.

I believe it is most effective to make this an optional standard; A profile creator should have the ability to freely detail their page with the functions of an ability, just as a Summary in a character profile will detail a character's backstory, which doesn't NEED to be indexed, but is still there. At the same time, leaving the pages that do not do this in tandem with those that do is also okay in terms of indexing.

That'd defeat the point of making a standard in the first place, pages that don't obey this standard wouldn't be deleted, but would just be fixed over time, which is quite plausible to do considering verse supporters basically have to only adjust a few pages at most (not many verses have more than a single verse-specific P&A page). I could manage to get the verse-specific P&As to an higher standard in the last months, I'd be fully willing to help continuing on that.

But I have a question, Bob. Are you suggesting that in the Summary section, we should not include detailed information about how the ability is obtained, prerequisites, or terminology, but it would be allowed in other sections of the page? Or are you implying that such information is not allowed anywhere on the page?

Not anywhere on the page IMO for the before-mentioned reasons, complex descriptions that'd actually pertain our purposes would be mentioned as reasonings in the P&A section.

If it's the latter, I have mixed feelings about excluding this information entirely. While I agree that the summary should be concise and not overwhelmed with excessive details (hence "summary"), completely omitting such information seems a bit unusual. Maybe we could explore the possibility of creating a separate section specifically dedicated to things such as prerequisites, and how they are obtained instead?

I'd rather if anything compromise to optionally linking to a blog post, explanation page, or even a page in another wiki in some cases for this kind of stuff, it'd make stuff look neater and way easier to sort out without directly derailing from the purpose of the site.

The majority of verse pages currently adopt a different approach by listing the types as the main headings, unlike Bob's proposed format where the types would be listed under a dedicated "Types" section. Additionally, I've reviewed approximately 12 or 13 physiology pages that somehow have the verse-specific P&A categories, and I can say that their structures definitely vary significantly.

Well, I think that we need to revise Bobsican's suggested format then, make it considerably less restrictive, and probably allow for several layout options as well.

I could update the proposed standard accordingly, although other standard formats usually don't allow "custom" headings, and in any case it'd be impossible to make one that fits all the current pages without being so broad to the point it's not a standard anymore.

Do the pages fit well with Bobsican's suggested format in practice? While I personally believe it is possible to modify the pages to adhere to Bob's proposed format, the level of effort required may vary. Some pages currently lack a section listing the users of the specific ability (or some other sections for that matter), so revising them to conform to Bob's format would depend on the willingness and availability of verse supporters (As I think there are certain sections that can only be completed by them). Also, what about the Physiology pages that have the same verse-specific category?

Physiology pages adhere to basically the same standards as a "proper" verse-specific P&A TBH, especially as apparently there's a few pages that overlap as both, as we've both discussed off-site.

Also, @Bobsican, would the Weakness part of the ability be also accommodated by the "Powers and Abilities" heading section, or not?

Good catch, that'd be fine there.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

My gut instinct is to disagree with verse-specific power pages being treated differently than normal ones, with the exception of allowing some amount of explanation that may be more necessary than for our blanket cover-all abilities. The draft above does seem to discourage these explanations and so I think, if we must put this through, that we ought to change that to allow more in-depth explanations. They do no harm.

I'm understanding the argument that it may become too wordy and thus actually serve as a detriment to the purpose of understanding, so I think encouraging simple explanations is best- but denying them altogether seems wrong.

 

[KingTempest]

I honestly believe this would be a beautiful guideline, but it shouldn't be a strict rule on how they need to be formatted.

Like for example, the Haki page shows everything. Shows who can use it, how you get it, what it does, how to improve it, and more.

You're telling me I need to delete/reformat all of that because a different organized way on how to do it?

 

[Damage3245]

I honestly believe this would be a beautiful guideline, but it shouldn't be a strict rule on how they need to be formatted.

Like for example, the Haki page shows everything. Shows who can use it, how you get it, what it does, how to improve it, and more.

You're telling me I need to delete/reformat all of that because a different organized way on how to do it?

I agree with KingTempest.

We shouldn't let this guideline serve as a limiter for pages that don't need it.

The guideline would be useful for people who don't know where to begin for making their own Power page, but that should be it.

 

[Bobsican]

My gut instinct is to disagree with verse-specific power pages being treated differently than normal ones, with the exception of allowing some amount of explanation that may be more necessary than for our blanket cover-all abilities. The draft above does seem to discourage these explanations and so I think, if we must put this through, that we ought to change that to allow more in-depth explanations. They do no harm.

I'm understanding the argument that it may become too wordy and thus actually serve as a detriment to the purpose of understanding, so I think encouraging simple explanations is best- but denying them altogether seems wrong.

Well, the main reason they're treated differently from normal P&As is because they're fundamentally different. One just describes a power or capability with inherent attributes to virtually any work of fiction for our purposes, while the other groups up a bunch of different and often otherwise unrelated P&As that can be generalized for a given set of characters that can use it in a specific verse.

And that's why a compromise was brought up before for particularly large in-depth descriptions of this kind of stuff just getting their own explanation page or blog post, especially considering even the Editing Rules try to separate the two, with most of the purpose of explanation pages in fact being intended for this stuff:

• Keep in mind that the contents of Explanation Pages should strictly use formal language, and not rely on content such as fan terms or personal pronouns referring to the author(s) of the page in question. They should also strictly focus on explaining content that can't properly fit into profile pages, such as extensive reasoning for the scale of a verse cosmology or other complicated functions and structures within it, to provide justifications and background context for their currently listed powers and tiers in this wiki, without overlapping with the structure and function of verse-specific powers and abilities pages. Explanation Pages should be linked to as justifications in the associated relevant verse and character profile pages.

I honestly believe this would be a beautiful guideline, but it shouldn't be a strict rule on how they need to be formatted.

Like for example, the Haki page shows everything. Shows who can use it, how you get it, what it does, how to improve it, and more.

You're telling me I need to delete/reformat all of that because a different organized way on how to do it?

I agree with KingTempest.

We shouldn't let this guideline serve as a limiter for pages that don't need it.

The guideline would be useful for people who don't know where to begin for making their own Power page, but that should be it.

I mean, that same kind of issues also happened when we got a standard format for character pages and the like, allowing users to just do whatever kinda defeats the point of having a standard, at that point they may as well just rip off the formatting of a currently existing page.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I do not understand why this difference you're describing absolutely requires less context be given. As I said, I can somewhat appreciate the approach that overexplaining a topic may actually lead to less overall understanding- many walls of text to describe a given verse's version of magic is probably unnecessary. But in general, appropriate explanations ought to be encouraged, not the converse.

 

[Antvasima]

I also agree with KingTempest.

Some modified and less restrictive guidelines would probably be useful though.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that forcing our members to completely overhaul all verse-specific powers and abilities pages to considerably more ill-fitting and inflexible formatting seems like a very bad idea. My apologies.

Some optional and more flexible guideline suggestions might work though.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I think that forcing our members to completely overhaul all verse-specific powers and abilities pages to considerably more ill-fitting and inflexible formatting seems like a very bad idea. My apologies.

Some optional and more flexible guideline suggestions might work though.

Such as?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. Just some very basic structure suggestions based on our current verse-specific powers and abilities pages.

 

[Bobsican]

I do not know. Just some very basic structure suggestions based on our current verse-specific powers and abilities pages.

In that case merely rewriting what's currently proposed wouldn't do.

The current structure varies wildly, they're almost explanation pages on terms of how variable they are, even with the common traits in common out of the premise we'd still have to worry about the order of each part being all over the place, so if we can't really standarize beyond what's effectively covered in the Common Editing Mistakes page, I don't think doing a standard format page is a good idea then, but I'm open for other ideas.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I do not think that a traditional mandatory standard format page is feasible in this case either, but some loose instructions might be useful.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

Unless somebody is willing to accommodate great flexibility in a draft for an information page based on the structures of our current VSPAA pages, I do not think that this thread will ever progress anywhere.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Unless somebody is willing to accommodate great flexibility in a draft for an information page based on the structures of our current VSPAA pages, I do not think that this thread will ever progress anywhere.

Then what should we do here?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, either close this thread or write a much more flexible instruction page draft that will not force us the greatly revise most of our current pages of this type.

 

[Damage3245]

I think this can probably be closed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so then. Thank you to everybody who helped out here.

 

[Antvasima]

There are recurrent problems with our members linking to blog posts in powers and abilities sections, instead of proper verse-specific powers and abilities pages, so I think that we should at least write some kind of very loosely defined official instruction page for this.

Verse-specific Powers and Abilities

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Bobsican]

Would it be fine to work on basically a general template for them that users can just go differently from if desired? That way it'd be possible to standarize this stuff while also avoiding the previous concerns of having to reformat basically every single current verse-specific P&A

 

[Antvasima]

If it is optional/not mandatory that is probably fine, but we mainly just need a page that explains what a "Verse-specific Powers and Abilities" page is, how it should loosely be set up, including adding two standard categories at the bottom (one "Verse-specific Powers and Abilities" category and one for the relevant verse), and that these should be turned irnto egular pages, not blog posts, before they are linked to in powers and abilities sections.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bump.