Stamina: A veritable clustertruck

[Crabwhale]

Hello there, and welcome to something I've been meaning to inquire about for a very long time. Simply put, our stamina page I feel is lacking somewhat, and from the general consensus I've had while asking people in private, there seems to be some agreement on that.

Now let me preface this by saying, yes: I know stamina is left as a vague and non-standardized statistic intentionally. I don't necessarily disagree with that, entirely. But at the same time, we have many, and I assure you, there are many, profiles that are using the same wording for very different feats. That part, the page does make an attempt to warn people against, but I don't think it's evident enough.

I suppose you can brush that off as an arbitrary issue, but that ignores the purpose of having the rating in the first place.

Another problem I feel is the inherent lack of distinction between stamina feats. Let me explain what I mean by that by providing an example: in Neon Genesis Evangelion, Angels possess an organ in their core which is called an S2 Engine (or Super Solenoid). This organ effectively functions as a perpetual motion machine that allows them access to limitless energy. That's limitless stamina, as would be agreed by most people.

However, on the other hand, if an Angel's Core is destroyed, that's them dead. They don't possess the capacity to get back and keep going after that, despite having limitless energy. Now while you can say "well duh, you're removing the Core and therefore the thing that provides them with the limitless energy in the first place", but that is ignoring the point. There is a marked difference between endurance and the ability to take damage and keep going.

That's also not mentioning mental stamina in the equation as well, as Ultima pointed out in a DM.

So all this, and what is my proposal? Well I'm open to them as they come, but at the very least there needs to be at least some measure of standardization of values, even if it's as simple as "human", "peak human", "superhuman". Failing that, outright banning the use of summary words and leaving just the description would be preferable.

On the topic of endurance, tolerance and mental fortitude, while I don't propose splitting up different kinds of stamina, for that would be unnecessarily drawn out and needlessly complicated, I would put more emphasis on said split in the page itself, so as to at the very least make the community more mindful the split does exist.

 

[Antvasima]

Here is the draft that I created long ago for stamina levels, but since it didn't cover different types of stamina, or take into account time compression for Massively FTL+ characters and the like, it was not accepted.

Stamina levels draft

Below Average - Characters equivalent to real world out of shape or feeble humans, who will tire even after simple exertion.

Average - Characters with stamina comparable to regular real world humans, such as unathletic inviduals who will tire after brief periods of exertion.

Above Average - Characters that are capable of intense exertion for prolonged periods of time, such as athletic, highly trained, or generally physically very fit individuals.

Peak Human - Characters whose stamina have reached the upper limits of human capabilities, such as Olympic level athletes.

Superhuman - Characters whose stamina have reached beyond the maximum real world human level.

High Superhuman - Characters who can exert themselves continuously to extreme degrees for more than a day.

Metahuman - Characters who can exert themselves continuously to extreme degrees for more than a month.

High Metahuman - Characters who can exert themselves continuously to extreme degrees for more than a year.

Godlike - Characters who can exert themselves continuously to extreme degrees for more than a century.

Infinite - Characters who can exert themselves continuously at peak performance for infinite periods of time.

Take note that different types of stamina should preferably be listed and explained.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I agree about that we really need to improve the Stamina page. I am just not sure how.

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Crazylatin77 @Jvando @Zaratthustra @SamanPatou @Just_a_Random_Butler @ElixirBlue @Dino_Ranger_Black @JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @The_Impress @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96 @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @DMUA @Jasonsith @KieranH10 @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @Amelia_Lonelyheart @DragonGamerZ913 @The_Divine_Phoenix @ZackMoon1234 @Dark-Carioca @MistaClean

Do any of you have any constructive suggestions?

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

I also have a old draft of stamina levels that I can share, although like Ant's, it doesn't take into account other types of stamina feats.

 

[ByAsura]

I’ve always been meaning to make a thread like this.

A very simple fix would probably be giving the ability to survive fatal wounds its own page with different levels, while stamina can just refer to the ability to perform laborious activities over time. I could see this working for someone like Frieza, who was cut in half with virtually no stamina.

There’s a few complications, like zombies and vampires, but that’s kind of already covered by other powers like type 7 immortality.

It’s probably not even that much work because few pages actually have endurance feats like surviving disembowelment under stamina.

Edit: I might draft up a page tomorrow if my suggestion gets any interest.

 

[Armorchompy]

On principle I disagree with more organized stamina ratings since stamina feats are much more up to interpretation than even intelligence ones, which are already kinda difficult to pin down sometimes.

Which is more impressive, staying awake for a month or fighting for a week? Barely surviving 20 deep stab wounds or being absolutely unhindered by getting your hand chopped off in a fight? Keeping up a telekinetic spell for three days or withstanding hours of some abstract mental torture? Fighting for six days but being incredibly tired afterwards, or fighting for four days without breaking a sweat?

I'm sure we could come up with answers for these but the point is that it's all very subjective. If we do use organized levels, I think it should be something very simple, something like:

• Unknown - Self-explanatory
• Below Average - Self-explanatory
• Average - Self-explanatory
• Athletic - Mostly to be given to characters that are in impressive physical form but have no noteworthy physical feats, or simply those with feats that aren't too impressive.
• Very High - To be used for feats that are impressive but not really superhuman. This is left a little vague on purpose, because again, pinpointing the level of stamina it takes to do something is almost arbitrary, so Very High would cover things that range from simply being very athletic to being able to keep on fighting for hours or after serious injuries.
• Extremely High/Superhuman, which includes literally everything that is superhuman, no matter by what degree
• Infinite - Self-explanatory

And that's it. I don't think making anything more complicated would be productive since Stamina is, in the end, very subjective and case-by-case, and should be analyzed by the feats that come along with the rating, not the rating itself. Quite honestly I'd rather have the ratings nuked almost completely than a needlessly precise list of ratings that doesn't fit the topic

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'd still prefer is we avoid making an official tier list; nothing wrong with having stuff like low, average, high, very high, godlike, ect. Limitless is the only thing that's really specific enough to have official clarifications. But aside from that, it doesn't really need a list. Furthermore, below average human and peakhuman ect gets misleading when talking about animals; insects, arachnids, and small fish have among the highest stamina levels in the real world, where as lions, tigers, and especially ligers have really poor stamina.

Also, I agree that there are like a bunch of different categories of stamina; including physical vs mental vs spiritual and all that. But we can't really make big distinctions in tier list format. However, it was agreed to keep it mostly description/summary based. Though I will note I have made quite a few profiles who just have generic "Very High" ratings, though some of those characters really only have "There giant pool of HP" to really describe their stamina. Though, it is still worth mentioning as opposed to just having nothing.

 

[MistaClean]

I agree with Armorchompy

 

[Armorchompy]

Another possibly cool idea I had was adding examples of "peak human stamina" feats in our stamina page, to use as reference. I can't come up with anything on the spot but I'm sure there's some MMA match out there where one of the fighters got absolutely pummeled for rounds and rounds yet kept holding on, or reports of people surviving after a gunshot to the liver, I dunno, something like that.

 

[Antvasima]

I’ve always been meaning to make a thread like this.

A very simple fix would probably be giving the ability to survive fatal wounds its own page with different levels, while stamina can just refer to the ability to perform laborious activities over time. I could see this working for someone like Frieza, who was cut in half with virtually no stamina.

There’s a few complications, like zombies and vampires, but that’s kind of already covered by other powers like type 7 immortality.

It’s probably not even that much work because few pages actually have endurance feats like surviving disembowelment under stamina.

Edit: I might draft up a page tomorrow if my suggestion gets any interest.

I think that the ability to survive wounds that should be fatal is covered under a type of immortality.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, both Armorchompy and Medeus make good points above.

 

[Damage3245]

Failing that, outright banning the use of summary words and leaving just the description would be preferable.

This is my preference.

I would rather just look at a list of stamina feats than a particular term which lacks clear definitions.

 

[ByAsura]

@Ant Immortality and the ability to tolerate wounds can be very different things.

Though, the suggestion to forgo label should entirely actually seems like a much more appealing prospect now that’s I’m seeing it (I just do that anyway).

 

[Antoniofer]

Stamina is one of those ratings that can't be measured by numbers, so normally people will have troubles evaluating them without some reference. Writting stuff such "High", "Very High", and "Extremely High", what is what people generally write in the profiles, are arbitrary ratings that do not really means anything.

What it can be made is something a kin to what SPW does and divide the ratings in three groups: Peak Human, Enhanced and Supernatural. Peak Human, despite its name, it can also include pretty athletic examples of human perfomance, not just the most extreme examples; Enhanced or Superhuman is beyond of what a human in real life can reach, but its still physically possible, and generally only available in the animal kingdom; finally there's is Supernatural, that, well, is everything that is beyond of what is naturally possible (that can be tricky, as one can say that Supernatural Stamina could be Self-Sustenance, or that SUpernatural Endurance is Immortality type 2). Human level is for characters with no notable feats basically, where Below Human is for those that sucks in the field.

The other issue is that the Stamina section is used to cover Stamina, Endurance and Energy Supply, whenever several profiles only refer to one aspect while leaving the other in blank; see that one character can fight nearly at peak conditions when it has ate in 1 week, but that does not necessary means in would stand a stab in the chest and not twist in agony.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

I 100% agree with Armorchompy and DarkDragonMedeus

 

[Antvasima]

This is my preference.

I would rather just look at a list of stamina feats than a particular term which lacks clear definitions.

Though, the suggestion to forgo label should entirely actually seems like a much more appealing prospect now that’s I’m seeing it (I just do that anyway).

Stamina is one of those ratings that can't be measured by numbers, so normally people will have troubles evaluating them without some reference. Writting stuff such "High", "Very High", and "Extremely High", what is what people generally write in the profiles, are arbitrary ratings that do not really means anything.

Strictly using descriptions of what characters can do related to stamina, and avoiding specific terms, may be the most practical solution, yes, but a large part of our profile pages do not write anything beyond "High", "Very High", "Extremely High", or even "Infinite because it is a robot"...

I suppose that those pages could technically get "Unknown" stamina ratings, but we cannot realistically edit almost 29,000 pages.

 

[Damage3245]

Strictly using descriptions of what characters can do related to stamina, and avoiding specific terms, may be the most practical solution, yes, but a large part of our profile pages do not write anything beyond "High", "Very High", "Extremely High", or even "Infinite because it is a robot"...

I suppose that those pages could technically get "Unknown" stamina ratings, but we cannot realistically edit almost 29,000 pages.

We don't need to edit 29,000 pages in one go. We just need to settle on future guidelines, new profiles will be made according to the new standards, and old profiles will be corrected over time if anyone spots a profile that has a label like "High" with no supporting feats.

 

[ByAsura]

Isn’t leaving a profile with some random rating and no justification something that should be rectified anyway?

 

[Antvasima]

We don't need to edit 29,000 pages in one go. We just need to settle on future guidelines, new profiles will be made according to the new standards, and old profiles will be corrected over time if anyone spots a profile that has a label like "High" with no supporting feats.

Yes. We can probably modify our Stamina page instructions, and let the change happen gradually.

 

[Armorchompy]

We could also make it so the ratings are optional. After all, something like "Stamina: Superhuman. Could fight for many hours without rest, even after receiving several injuries." works perfectly fine even without the "Superhuman"

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

I think there should be explanations on the different aspects of stamina. For example:

Mental Fortitude: An explanation about how characters have the strength to endure mental/psychological attacks
Physical Stamina: An explanation about how characters can run/fight without their body tiring
Injury Tolerance: An explanation about how characters can undergo physical pain and how many wounds they can endure

Hopefully this make sense, I think adding examples would also help people understand as well.

 

[Armorchompy]

In the stamina page, I fully agree, but I assume you aren't suggesting that all profiles have this division?

 

[Antvasima]

I think there should be explanations on the different aspects of stamina. For example:

Mental Fortitude: An explanation about how characters have the strength to endure mental/psychological attacks
Physical Stamina: An explanation about how characters can run/fight without their body tiring
Injury Tolerance: An explanation about how characters can undergo physical pain and how many wounds they can endure

Hopefully this make sense, I think adding examples would also help people understand as well.

In the stamina page, I fully agree, but I assume you aren't suggesting that all profiles have this division?

Mentioning this in our Stamina page seems like a good idea to me, but I also agree with Armorchompy about that it cannot be mandatory to describe all of the types.

 

[Therefir]

The terms "human", "peak human", "superhuman" don't sound so bad actually, working with such broad terms would allow us to classify profiles without having to differentiate between fighting several days at a time, to being able to keep fighting after suffering a fatal wound.

We have classifications for Attack Potency, Speed, Lifting Strength, Striking Strength, Durability, Range, and Intelligence, so I disagree with banning ratings all together for Stamina.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I don't actually use ratings anymore for the profiles I've created since it's broad. I simply just write a description detailing the characters feats regarding Stamina/Endurance and so on.

I think there should be explanations on the different aspects of stamina. For example:

Mental Fortitude: An explanation about how characters have the strength to endure mental/psychological attacks
Physical Stamina: An explanation about how characters can run/fight without their body tiring
Injury Tolerance: An explanation about how characters can undergo physical pain and how many wounds they can endure

Hopefully this make sense, I think adding examples would also help people understand as well.

I don't have an issue with mentioning this on the Stamina page.

 

[Crabwhale]

We could also make it so the ratings are optional. After all, something like "Stamina: Superhuman. Could fight for many hours without rest, even after receiving several injuries." works perfectly fine even without the "Superhuman"

This would be my preferred alternative as well.

 

[Crabwhale]

Isn’t leaving a profile with some random rating and no justification something that should be rectified anyway?

This, I agree with fully. If the Stamina section is that barebones, it needed work to begin with, even without this potential revision.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

This, I agree with fully. If the Stamina section is that barebones, it needed work to begin with, even without this potential revision.

This is true. I've seen many profiles that just say Very High... with no justification.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Yeah, just on the stamina page itself. Users can can take the information and condense it into the single section, that we already have for stamina, on the profiles itself.

 

[Damage3245]

We have classifications for Attack Potency, Speed, Lifting Strength, Striking Strength, Durability, Range, and Intelligence, so I disagree with banning ratings all together for Stamina.

But for those other classifications, the ratings are mandatory. Are you suggesting we make them mandatory for Stamina as well?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Stamina is an incredibly complex and multilayered topic that escapes easy classification. I don't think standardized phrases are necessary or worth encouraging (quite the opposite in fact) and putting anything except the justification, i.e. explanation, of the stamina may as well be optional.

The stamina page already notes

Avoid using standardized words or phrases (such as "High" or "Very High") on their own to describe stamina levels without further explanation, as it is an extremely wide field that contains numerous aspects that are not possible to properly equate to each other, for example pain resilience, endurance, and recovery time. It is strongly recommended to explain and elaborate on the feats that the characters have displayed in this area instead.

which, in my opinion, mostly already reflects that.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

This is true. I've seen many profiles that just say Very High... with no justification.

So what would be the difference between Superhuman, Very High, and Extremely High?

To specify, what stamina feats would apply to each level of stamina?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

So what would be the difference between Superhuman, Very High, and Extremely High?

To specify, what stamina feats would apply to each level of stamina?

DonTalkDT pretty much summed up that Stamina is complex.

Stamina is an incredibly complex and multilayered topic that escapes easy classification. I don't think standardized phrases are necessary or worth encouraging (quite the opposite in fact) and putting anything except the justification, i.e. explanation, of the stamina may as well be optional.

The difference between the ratings isn't something that can be easily defined in my honest opinion. It's not impossible, just not easy.

 

[KingTempest]

The other issue is that the Stamina section is used to cover Stamina, Endurance and Energy Supply, whenever several profiles only refer to one aspect while leaving the other in blank; see that one character can fight nearly at peak conditions when it has ate in 1 week, but that does not necessary means in would stand a stab in the chest and not twist in agony.

^

I disagree with the example on message 2. Someone can fight fodder for a week and get KO'd from a stab in the shoulder from someone relative.

There needs to be a balance and an accurate way to measure the different concepts of stamina, endurance, etc.

And I also massively disagree with leaving it up to interpretation, or else anyone can interpret "can get beat up for 10 minutes" very high because it seems really high to them.

We should have standards that work in case to case situations instead of making stamina a page that promotes headcanon ratings

 

[Armorchompy]

They're not "headcanon ratings", they're simply estimates. Estimates that should not be taken at face value, and are secondary to the actual feats that the profile should present.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I've also seen some people use the argument that some stamina feats are non-combat applicable.

Like, say if a character waited a whole week for a package to come. Would that be applied to combat? If not, then what's the point of having the stamina feat in their profile if it can't be applied to combat?

 

[KingTempest]

Estimates based on no official rating.

What would qualify as "very high" in contrast to 'extremely high"? Or what would be the peak for "average human"?

We need standards to decide that or else... literally everything is up to interpretation

I've also seen some people use the argument that some stamina feats are non-combat applicable.

Like, say if a character waited a whole week for a package to come. Would that be applied to combat? If not, then what's the point of having the stamina feat in their profile if it can't be applied to combat?

It'll be noted that it can't be applied to combat

We have abilities on profiles that are non-combat applicable. This'd be the same

 

[RandomGuy2345]

What would qualify as "very high" in contrast to 'extremely high"? Or what would be the peak for "average human"?

I feel like I have an idea of what can be interpreted as "very high" compared to "extremely high".

Not too sure about the human part though.

 

[Armorchompy]

Estimates based on no official rating.

What would qualify as "very high" in contrast to 'extremely high"? Or what would be the peak for "average human"?

We need standards to decide that or else... literally everything is up to interpretation

What are the minimum required standards for Acrobatics? Or Stealth Mastery? We don't need iron-solid, set in stone standards for the most minute stuff, that just makes the entry level to profile-making way too high and makes all past profiles obsolete for very little gain.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I feel like lasting hours in a fight would be a justification for "very high" stamina.

I also think that lasting days in a fight would be a justification for "extremely high" stamina.

There's also characters that have Supernatural Willpower/Pain Tolerance that would be considered stamina feats as well, so lasting for hours in a fight plus having a very good Pain Tolerance could result in Extremely High.

This is just I how see it.