Speed ratings in a void without time

[Antvasima]

We seem to have a growing problem.

It has become increasingly common to rate any character that has moved in a void without time (usually portrayed as a blank page/white background) as having "infinite speed", and then scale the entire franchise from that, regardless how much it contradicts all other speed displays.

This is a rather common plot convenience within fiction, such as after a universe has been destroyed, or in a void outside of regular space-time, but should preferably also just be treated as this, or a hax ability, or we risk to allow widespread unreasonable boosting of a wide variety of franchises, that risks to severely undermine the reliability of our wiki.

For example, Thanos was able to move after spacetime had been destroyed in "The Infinity Finale", and Loki was able to do the same during the "Secret Wars". Should we scale all Marvel characters as having "infinite speed" because of this? Of course not, as it has no bearing on their other showings. It is simply Plot-Induced Stupidity so the story is able to continue to proceed.

We can make exceptions if it is explicitly stated as a valid power within the story itself, but even then it should probably be listed as a hax ability, unless the character is actually able to use infinite speed in practice in other circumstances (have the entire world literally stand still around him or her, alternately literally travel anywhere instantly).

Hence, I suggest that we modify the related speed page explanation/description accordingly. Suggestions for how to word a concise paragraph are appreciated.

 

[Antvasima]

In addition, if you know of characters that have been scaled from such a misunderstanding, please mention them below, so we can do something about the problem.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Your idea seems ok to me

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

This is exactly the problem I had with scaling characters who can move through a void with no time and space, it's too common among franchises and characters who aren't known for speed to scale such. I'm in full support of this.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I also agree with this

 

[Reppuzan]

Seems okay. What franchise would be affected by this in particular?

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan Well, I just had to prevent scaling most BlazBlue characters to infinite speed, and I seem to recall that it has been a topic for other franchises previously. We will likely also have to adjust Zen'ō's, and possibly Giorno Giovanna's ratings, in order to prevent the idea from spreading further.

 

[Antvasima]

Only franchies who have basically a majority of characters scaled from "infinite" speed would be effected right? And not franchies who have like only a few characters with that rating?

No, almost any character scaled from moving within a void without time would be affected, unless this is explicitly treated as infinite speed within the story.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I am also in agreement with your proposal. Question would we have to change the speed for the characters Paper Mario and Darkspine sonic as well if this is to be implemented.

 

[Antvasima]

@Grudgeman1706 Presumably, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

So, does anybody know of more characters that will need to have their statistics adjusted, or have suggestions regarding what to say in the Speed explanation page?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Since most people seem to be in agreement, I agree as well.

This would affect nearly every character with Infinite speed, only ones that I know would stay at Infinite would be the Cyber Sleuth cast.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Professor Zoom says hi, Dark ovo. Though, why is the CS cast infinite again?

 

[Antvasima]

Zoom would also remain at his previous rating.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Though, it does seem off to me that Kirby and Goku would be lolblitzing Dimentio.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

@Cal

They consistently match and defeat enemies who are above the concept of time and were capable of moving in higher dimensional space.

@Ant

Alright. I'm digging every page with "Infinite" on it to see which characters this will effect.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, before someone mentions it, pretty sure that the Sinnoh gods will remain the same speed. The feat comes from time and space destroying time and space around them by fighting. And Dialga still has time flow with a heartbeat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We should probably keep Infinite Speed for characters who have displayed that consistently, rather than anyone who walked in a void.

I agree with this.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I also doubt Giorno's feat would change.

@Dark. Having no concept of time (literally) sounds immeasurable to me.

 

[Antvasima]

@Darkanine Thank you for the help.

 

[Promestein]

I agree with Matt, and with this, generally.

The Creation Trio and Giorno should retain these speed values.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Hmm what about classifying it as immeasurable if there is literally no concept of time being applied?

 

[Antvasima]

@TLT1 I thought that you wanted to apply much stricter standards to the immeasurable rating?

 

[Antvasima]

Why should the Creation Trio and Giorno retain the infinite speed ratings?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

The Outsider can probably retain his original rating since he's infinite in size. As Cal said, the Pokemon God tiers can retain it. Sun Wukong (Myth) actually flew an infinite distance, so he keeps it too. Nightgaunts can also keep the rating since they traveled infinite space

GCat, The Elder Gods, Claude Triello (No justification anyway), Becquerel should probably no longer have Infinite.

Not sure about Spaw. I'll let Matt decide that. Also not sure about Arthur Penhaligo, sounds more like really good teleportation than speed. I'll ask Godking Superman about it.

Also not sure about Ryuzu Yourslave and Trishula Anchor. They can move outside of time, which may no longer count as infinite.

That's all I found so far.

Edit: Every Digimon character with Infinite speed would keep it to, since they can keep up with Eaters and/or keep up with entities that fight Eaters consistently.

 

[Antvasima]

@Darkanine Again, thank you for the help.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Superboy Prime keeps infinite also. There's likely no other way to interpret living timeline.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

We should also presumably write a list of charscters who's speed will be changed from this.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Dark. Ryuzu and Trishula should change, given that the former was just timestop, and the latter already had Time resistance on her profile.

 

[Antvasima]

@Grudgeman I would appreciate help with writing the list, as I am busy with the daily backlog.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@TLT1 I thought that you wanted to apply much stricter standards to the immeasurable rating?

yeah

ideally for immeasurable speeds we wud require something like beyond linear time (2-D time)

but in this case, the speed would be immeasurable by definition because you cant properly measure it but that wont work tiering-wise, and, it wont be immeasurable on our scale (since on our scale immeasureable is beyond infinite)


overall i agree with your original proposal and beyond 1-D time for immeasurable stuff

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Let's focus on rescaling the characters who have gained infinite speed from walking in a timeless void at the moment, and handle your project at a later date then.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@Grudgeman I would appreciate help with writing the list, as I am busy with the daily backlog.

I'd be more than happy to help, however it doesn't appear we have a infinite speed category to look through which makes this difficult to search without prior knowledge. For now though I'll list out characters we do know need to be changed like paper Mario and sonic and Giorno. And the others listed by staff.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Okay. Let's focus on rescaling the characters who have gained infinite speed from walking in a timeless void at the moment, and handle your project at a later date then.

understood

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Since most people are agreement, here are the characters that comes to mind that I believe should have it removed:

Paper Mario

Dimentio

Zeno

Darkspine Sonic

I'll continue to discuss this later. I'm heading for bed.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Kayto Shields has no justification so that should be changed anyway.

Alice Sunrider is also not justified.

Not sure about Chaos Knight. I thought predating time was Immeasurable? Same goes for Elder Tita.

Not sure about The Entity. Sounds more like Immeasurable than Infinite.

I believe we already agreed that Paper Mario and Dimentio would no longer be Infinite. Count Bleck too.

Hunting Horrors would stay since they apparently traveled infinite space.

Not sure about Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe).

I'll let Cal and others decide for Unow, since I'm not really familiar with their lore.

Elysium. No justification. Dragonmasterxyz may know why she's infinite though, so I'll wait for his word.

Atlach-Nacha sounds like its just a timeless void, but I dunno since the wording is a bit odd.

Shadow Me exist outside of time, so I'm not sure if that stays infinite or not.

Erazor Djin doesn't get Infinite anymore since he just moved in a timeless void.

Asaga has no justifications.

Zera (Image Comics) I have no idea about. I think her justification needs updating.

Security Officer (Marathon) I'm not to sure about. He was able to move when time was completely frozen it seems like.

Combining this with my older post, that should be all of them. Or at least, the majority of them.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Characters with infinite speed that need to be changed(work in progress).

Paper Mario

Sonic the Hedgehog (Game Character)

GCat

Claude Triello

Ryuzu Yourslave

Trishula Anchor

The Elder Gods

So far these are the only ones confirmed for changing but I will continue to update it when more names appear.

Edit:lol Darkanine basically did it for me

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@Darkanine I believe Shadow Me should keep their rating as their reasoning sounds almost identical to hunter Solomon Zoom.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks. Is anybody willing to help with removing the infinite speed ratings? I suppose that we should replace them with "Unknown" instead.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I think that Dormammu should probably have his infinite speed rating removed, yes.