Speed ratings in a void without time

[Ryukama]

@Cal I'm sorry but that's not really an actual argument. Simply the fact that you find it weird that a character from an entirely different series is faster, doesn't mean the person has infinite speed. We have to go off whether or not it's best to lable such feats as that.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Didn't GER move in time that was effectively "erased" as opposed to just a void? That definitely seems infinite.

 

[Ryukama]

@Azzy it was also explicitly stated that GER should not be able to take action due to time being erased yet he still did. I believe his rating is alright.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, King Crimson erases time. And apparently from what I talked to people who have access to the original scans, the "None" Speed Rating actually means that speed doesn't apply to GER.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Never said I didn't agree. I just said it felt weird.

Since I proved my point about the characters I wanted infinite to be infinite, this can go any direction, and I'll help with the changes regardless.

 

[Ryukama]

@Cal Alright then. Thanks for the help.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

so dimentio and mario are now going to be mftl+ instead?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I haven't seen any argument for him not being. I think Ryu was very clear about it. Lord Xcano's example doesn't work because not only is that from another series, but it was also done with the usage of an Infinity Stone, and object more primal and more powerful than Dormammu.

 

[LordXcano]

@Matt It was putting a general concept into easier-to-understand terms. It's no different than if I explained the concept of "outlier" using Roshi's moon bust.

 

[Sera_EX]

Moving in a void and moving in erased time are not enough. It's just a circumstance.

But if you could move in no measurement of time (yet you did it while time flows as normally) your speed is infinite. You have displayed the ability to travel beyond temporality, while inside of it.

Unless you move outside of the universe's temporality, or are independent of it (or normally existing outside of it) you do not have infinite speed. This is only way infinite speed can be quantifiable by a given standard.

I want to reiterate this because this is actually something talked about in quantum physics. It is commonly theorized in order to be able to travel unaffected by time, you have to exist outside it's temporality, otherwise you are just moving faster along the flow of time. Nonlinear time is a different case.

 

[Antvasima]

Even going with the Dimentio example seen above, I'm still leaning towards this being a hax-type ability.

Take Dormammu (MCU) as an example. He resides outside of time in his own dimension. Infinite/Immeasurable speed. However once Doctor Strange introduces the concept of time there he gets downgraded to a more human level.

Same concept. A character can move that quickly when in a void, but outside of the void they are still constrained by time.

I am personally leaning towards LordXcano's interpretation that abilities to move within a timeless void should only be treated as a specific hax, not automatically as infinite speed when time is in effect.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I would appreciate if somebody could make a list of all the above-mentioned profiles that have not been adjusted yet (largely due to being admin-locked).

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I agree with Ryukama that if Dimentio would receive the Infinite speed rating, Mario with a temporary power-up should scale accordingly.

 

[Ryukama]

Also, I agree with Ryukama that if Dimentio would receive the Infinite speed rating, Mario with a temporary power-up should scale accordingly.

Thank you. And also to adress Dino's point of it "making more sense" for Dimentio to be infinite speed than Mario due to being an ancient and the host of the Chaos Heart. One this point is completely invalidated by the fact that Mario defeated Dimentio. Therefore his speed is automatically greater than or at least remotely comparable to Dimentio's, regardless of how you find this to be "unbelievable."

Even within lore it makes sense for Mario to have similar powers. Just like Dimentio is an Ancient fused with the true host of the Chaos Heart, Mario is the prophecized wielder of the Pure Hearts, a weapon made by Ancients meant to counter Chaos Heart's power.

Yeah Mario's schtick isn't dimension manipulation like Dimentio, but they are powered by similar forces, similar origins and by the lore are meant to be comparable, if not Mario being superior. And I don't see how writing the Dark Prognosticus validates infinite speed more than defeating someone with infinite speed.

Once again I am fine with Dimentio not being considered infinite speed, but there is no reason at all why Mario should not get that rating if Dimentio does.

 

[Reppuzan]

Needs to be Changed

• Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe)
• Sonic the Hedgehog (Game Character)
• GCat
• Becquerel
• Claude Triello
• The Elder Gods
• Spaw and Hell Kings (i.e. Zera (Image Comics))
• Erazor Djin
• Atlach-Nacha
• Kayto Shields
• Asaga
• Alice Sunrider

Hope I didn't miss any.

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan Thank you for the help.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

@Ryu and Ant

I'm just saying it's quite hard to validate, even with an item boost. Despite being prophecized hero, Mario still isn't a dimensional character like Dimentio. Hence, why I'm more comfortable with the latter solution of regarding it as hax rather than Infinite Speed for both characters. Whatever people thoughts on Dimentio, I'm fine either way. I just find Mario's glaring but I rather not make a big deal out of this. Anyway, I have to go to bed so please let me know if any changes are made.

 

[Ryukama]

@Again the fact that Dimentio's schtick is manipulating dimensions does not matter at all. Mario defeated Dimentio and is powered by a force meant to counter him by prophecy.

With all due respect, you are pretty much only debating on a matter of how you feel at this point. By both the game's lore and basic, logical powerscaling, Mario's speed scales to Dimentio's. What "you're more comfortable with" doesn't take precedence over that.

It'd be more "glaring" if we have Mario's AP the same as Dimentio's yet speed literally infinitely lower. We can't cherrypick the stats of someone we want to powerscale when clearly all stats scale.

But in either case good night and I'll let you know.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

This isn't picking or personal. The issue lies with the fact the playable cast in SPM were able to do this when Sammer's Kingdom was destroyed BEFORE they gotten all of the Pure Hearts. It raises questions in why the need Pure Hearts to achieve a rating in the first place and contradicts the fact they need it to begin with. If it weren't for this event, I would have no qualm with the ratings.

 

[Ryukama]

You never brought that up previously. The Sammer Kingdom thing was not the only issue you brought up during this. Before now it's all been about "Dimentio has dimensional powers and wrote the Prognosticus," "I'm uncomfortable with Paper Mario being rated like this" and "It's more believeable for Dimentio be infinite speed."

I'm sorry but as much as I respect you, those aren't good arguments. They're arguments from incredulity and belief. Either both are this fast or neither are. Everything indicates Paper Mario's speed scales to Dimentio's.

And outliers and PIS exists. Just because Mario did this once at a time he shouldn't have, doesn't mean this has to be discarded when he defeats someone who legitamately is at this rating via a temorary power up.

Again if Dimentio's speed isn't given this rating fine. But there's no reason not to scale Paper Mario's speed to whatever Dimentio's is. If he's infinite so is Mario.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

This isn't belief, this happens to be a major event that will undoubtedly raise questions and conflict but this discussion is bound to get more aggressive, so I'm just going to stop here. I rather not waste either of our time clashing over a rating that neither of us cares where it's regarded as a hax or speed, especially when I have nothing against you. I rather not bring our feelings for each other get involved before it starts getting personal, so let's just end it. Anyway, just inform me later.

 

[Ryukama]

I'm not going to get aggresive and apologies if I am appearing to be now. I don't have personal qualms with anyone just because I disagree with their opinion, especially on something like how powerful a fictional character is. I have nothing personal with you either of course and still respect you greatly.

And you never brought up the Sammer thing before. You said "you didn't believe" Mario scales to Dimentio before because he has dimentional powers, is an Ancient and the creator of the Prognosticus. Those are not very good arguments. Perhaps the Sammer thing is more solid, but the fact that Dimentio wrote a book and has a different schtick to his powers does not negate the fact Mario scales to him. Especially when Mario is powered by something meant to counter Dimentio's abilities and used that power to defeat him by prophecy.

Again I don't think one scene of Mario doing something he shouldn't be able to likely out of PIS negates when he legitamately fights someone who should be capable of such a feat. Outliers don't invalidate other actual feats. Of course this is all assuming we still consider said feats infinite speed. Which it's fine if not.

But that is also all I have to say on the matter, so good night.

 

[Antvasima]

So, what are we going to do about the remaining profiles?

Also, are there any more suggestions for how we should word the explanation in the speed page?

 

[Antvasima]

Anybody?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Dormammu shoud remain Infinite. He fits the requirements.

Sonic and the Spawn characters should have infinite speed removed.

The Elder Gods shouldn't be...

Also, why the hell is Raiden Multi-Galaxy level? If his One Being feat happened off-screen, is only part of the lore, and every single other portrayal of him is nowhere near that level, we shouldn't use it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks for the input. Feel free to adjust the speeds accordingly.

As for Mortal Kombat, that is an issue for a separate thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, we still need some sort of appropriate explanation for the speed page. One that both incorporates the points from my initial post, and that of Sera might be an idea. Although I am very uncertain if we should incorporate hax abilities into the infinite speed requirement, as she suggested.

 

[Sera_EX]

We shouldn't include hax.

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed. Would you be willing to write a new suggestion for the speed page explanation? I am extremely tired and dizzy from overwork.

 

[Sera_EX]

Certainly.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[Sera_EX]

How about this?:

"Moving within a void alone is to enough to have infinite speed. This is a rather common plot convenience within fiction, such as after a universe has been destroyed, or in a void outside of regular space-time, it should preferably also just be treated as this. To possess full infinite speed, the character(s) must have exhibited the conditions of existing in such a void normally, or is independent of the universe's space-time."

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks. I modified it a bit:

"Moving within a timeless void is not a sufficient justification to receive the infinite speed rating. This is a rather common plot convenience within fiction, such as after a universe has been destroyed, or when travelling outside of regular space-time, and is generally strongly contradicted by all regular speed feats. In order to qualify, a character must have exhibited the capability of existing in such an environment normally, or to be independent of universal space-time."

 

[Antvasima]

I am uncertain about the "or to be independent of universal space-time" part though. It is hard for visitors to understand.

 

[Sera_EX]

You're right. It's best to omit that part for the sake of our visitors.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. The current suggestion would be:

"Moving within a timeless void is not a sufficient justification to receive the infinite speed rating. This is a rather common plot convenience within fiction, such as after a universe has been destroyed, or when travelling outside of regular space-time, and is generally strongly contradicted by all regular speed feats. In order to qualify, a character must have exhibited the capability of naturally existing in such an environment."

Does anybody think that we have forgotten something/should add something to the explanation?

 

[Reppuzan]

I think that definition is fine.

So what would be considered as justifications for "existing in such an environment normally"?

Being born in it? Living independent of standard space for a significant period of time?

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally uncertain. Presumably to be a natural part of that type of environment, like movie Dormammu is. Although I am uncertain about his inclusion, given that he did not have infinite speed when time was activated.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Perhaps moving in area's devoid of space/time regardless of circumstance just does not require or give someone infinite speed?

I don't know if it's just me but I've been following that line of thought the past few days; I think what we would benefit from more is getting an answer to the following: "why exactly does moving in a place devoid of space-time w/e grant one infinite speed?" And, "Does being in a space-time continuum hinder their speed?"

Also, I don't particularly agree with the whole moving in a timeless void =/= infinite speed with the reason being "common plot convenience within fiction", I understand that some characters can have moments where they run around when the whole continuum is busted and literally every other feat is of infinitely lower value; we already have something to deal with moments like this. Which is outlier.

I'd prefer we don't have a repeat of the whole pocket dimension stuff, where due to a select few verses we have to look at all instances as if they're all the same as the former. As for how we're trying to deal with the situation reminds me of that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you make a good first point, but regarding the second, something can be both a plot convenience and an outlier at the same time.