Speed in order to blitz

[Furudo_Erika]

I dunno where to put this, so I'll just put it here.

I see that the Speed Blitz page does not have a value in order to classify it as a "blitz", but it does state that it is "the act of one attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving or reacting to them"
I wonder if I could add in a minimum value to make a speed blitz, like the One-Shot page does with an AP difference of 7.5x.

Since a blitz is when they cannot perceive or react to their target, I would assume they would be "Subsonic" in comparison as they as faster then their eye can see.
Just like One-Shot being the difference between the lower ends of Human level and Street level 300 / 40 = 7.5...
Then blitzing would be the difference between the lower ends of Average Human and Subsonic speeds; 34.3 / 5 = 6.86.

Using the logic on the One-Shot page, to "blitz" a target, they would need to move at least 6.86 times faster than their target's perception and reaction speeds.

Just a thought I had.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Problem is subsonic is pretty overkill, you don't need to be hard to see to blitz others, especially at close range, speedblitz is honestly a pretty case by case and broad concept.

I think it would be hard to react to profissional boxers so maybe attlethic to peak human speeds could work.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

difference of 7.5x.

It's amazing how nobody uses it. I think it could even be deleted from the page

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

All normal humans technically have Subsonic perception, but perception/speed are two different things. But yeah, the speed gap doesn't need to be that much to be a blitz; I'd roughly say 3 or 4 times is the gap required.

 

[Thelastmlg]

As far as i know perception speed only allows you to know something is happening, if you don't have the reactions to dodge it you eill know it only after being punched.

Without perception speed, you wouldn't even be aware of what's punching you.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

I agree Speed blitz shouldn’t be like Subsonic vs Average human

Blitzing depends on a bunch of things like starting distance

I can see a 200km/h car coming if I’m extremely far away
If a car suddenly accelerated from 0-200km/h a meter away from me I’d get blitzed

 

[VinnyXD]

It's amazing how nobody uses it. I think it could even be deleted from the page

This is funny and true

 

[Furudo_Erika]

With Athletic speed, the speed difference is 1.54x. It would be hard to keep up, but quite possible to still fight.
With Peak Human speed, the difference is barely over 2x, quite hard to keep up, but still possible.
With Superhuman speed, the difference is 2.486x. This probably would be nearly impossible for normal humans to keep up.

With this, I can agree on 2.5x to 3x speed for blitzing.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Yeah i think 3x for a full on blitz works, is arbitrary but it makes sense

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Yeah i think 3x for a full on blitz works, is arbitrary but it makes sense

Yeah. 2.5x speed is still possible to fight through, but extremely difficult. I would say 3x speed for blitzing as well.

 

[KingTempest]

We can't work on arbitrary.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

We can't work on arbitrary.

It should just remain vaguely higher imo
We can just leave it as case by case

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I say blitzing would be a few times faster than another character, but that is just my opinion.
I am also leaning on what DarkDragonMedeus said about blitzing being 3x to 4x faster, with my choice being the former.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I also agree that 3X to 4X is the best bet

So what's the proposal, add a note in the blitz page, to be used in VS Threads ? The One Shot gap (should) be used just to avoid stomps, I guess having the same note to speed would be good to avoid speed blitz

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I also agree that 3X to 4X is the best bet

So what's the proposal, add a note in the blitz page, to be used in VS Threads ? The One Shot gap (should) be used just to avoid stomps, I guess having the same note to speed would be good to avoid speed blitz

I would say that there should be a note in the Blitz page that in order to qualify as a blitz, the difference in speed has to be at least 3x greater than the other character (or 3.5x, if we go in the middle of 3x to 4x), and I also agree the one-shot page should stay to avoid stomps.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

bump

 

[Planck69]

This is extremely arbitrary. Why are we talking about this like it's already accepted?

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I don't see it as talking as if it is accepted.
Some people just agree that 3x to 4x speed just makes sense for blitzing, but no one has accepted it. It is arbitrary, sure, but the same thing could be said for a few official things on the wiki as well, some things just have to be arbitrary.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I'm not saying that 3x to 4x speed for blitzing should be listed as a fact here, but rather a general idea on what would become a "blitz".

 

[KLOL506]

I hear that a mere 2x faster speed is enough to blitz.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I just don't see 2x as fast enough to blitz. Sure, it is quite hard to fight someone 2x faster, but it would still be possible to fight them.

 

[KLOL506]

Maybe mention that the multiplier should only be used when there is a difference in the calculated speeds of the characters?

Just like how we use the 7.5x multiplier for AP stomps only when two characters' calculated AP have a difference of 7.5x

 

[Furudo_Erika]

That's what I was thinking. Like if Character A is Mach 10, then Character B would be Mach 30.
But it should only be used when Character A is shown to be completely overwhelmed and cannot even fight back or react at all.
If they have a lot of difficulty fighting them, but are still somewhat able to, then perhaps 2x speed may work, but eh.

 

[KLOL506]

That's what I was thinking. Like if Character A is Mach 10, then Character B would be Mach 30.
But it should only be used when Character A is shown to be completely overwhelmed and cannot even fight back or react at all.
If they have a lot of difficulty fighting them, but are still somewhat able to, then perhaps 2x speed may work, but eh.

Again, those two characters would need to have a calculation showing that they are Mach 10 and Mach 30 respectively.

And even then it depends heavily on context, not all verses use a set number for a multiplier to determine a blitz.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Professional boxers can throw punches at 25mph (11.176 m/s) on average, with Ricky Hatton reaching over 32 mph (14.3053 m/s)
The fastest punch in the Guinness World Records is held by Keith Liddell, who can throw punches that clocked in at 45mph (20.1168)
I would say that in order to completely blitz a normal human, then a character would need to be faster than the fastest fighters in real life.
So, 15 m/s to 20 m/s (Or 3x to 4x faster)

Although Keith Liddell is not really a professional fighter, he still appears to be quite athletic, but I would say that Ricky Hatton is a better option since he is a professional boxer, so my decision on 3x speed for blitzing remains intact.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

And even then it depends heavily on context, not all verses use a set number for a multiplier to determine a blitz.

This is true, and I know one or two good examples, but didn't quite stopped us from doing the 7,5X gap for AP

I still believe we can make one for speed, but if "arbitrary" or "depend on verse" is really that much of a problem, we should also nuke the AP Stomp gap

 

[Thelastmlg]

I mean, this is for versus threads only, not scaling or anything.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Yeah, these numbers are just a support to avoid stomp/blitz threads

 

[Bobsican]

I'm just going to mention that it's pretty common for characters to dodge SoL moves (most commonly lasers), and just be rated as having Relativistic reactions or so, rather than SoL as the speed ratings don't work like that.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Yeah distance exists, dodging at point blank easily gives you ftl speed but dodging it at medium range and beyond normally is just at best relativistic.

 

[joshpiece]

Bump, I like this idea it would be a good way to help make better vs match’s.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

There are different meaning of blitz tho. One is just move/punch before your opponent can block/dodge. Another one is moving so fast in a fight you can't be tagged all while raining punches and kicks from all directions.

 

[XDragnoir]

What distance are you guys using for a base tho? I am sure a 2x gap at H2H range is a blitz but it wouldn't be from 10m away, i don't want to overcomplicate this, but i think it would be good to have some speed gaps for each important range (H2H, 10m, 100m, 1km, 4km) since having a single one wouldn't be enough.

That's in the case you guys are indeed thinking in adding this, IMO this would help to have less speed equal matches (just like the 7.5x for AP helps a lot in non-hax fights).

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, range is also relevant for the purposes of speed blitz
A character having FTL physical combat isn't the same as a character having a FTL gun, as the range means that the target has different timeframes to react, with the move having to travel and all.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I mostly mean blitzing in melee range. If someone can blitz at a further distance, then they likely blitz at a closer distance as well.
As for 2x speed in H2H combat...you could likely still fight, but it would be quite difficult to do so. I see blitzing as "being overwhelmed by speed by such a degree that it is impossible to even react or fight back at all", and if you are still capable of fighting to an extent, then I would not count that as a "blitz".

Say if Character A is 7x physically stronger than Character B, but Character B has 2x combat speed. Both get in a fist fight, it is safe to say that B would be able to dodge most of A's attacks and land nearly all of their blows, but if A manages to land a single blow, then B would take serious damage if not get incapacitated immediately.

I say a blitz occurs when it is next to impossible to react or even land a single blow to another character via sheer speed alone, as a much stronger character can potentially one-shot a faster character if they manage to land a hit. How I interpret a "blitz", is that it would have to be next to impossible for Character A to even land a hit in the first place. Character B needs to be fast enough where they never get struck at all, so I will still say 3x minimum for complete blitzing in melee range.

 

[Continuum19]

Professional boxers can throw punches at 25mph (11.176 m/s) on average, with Ricky Hatton reaching over 32 mph (14.3053 m/s)
The fastest punch in the Guinness World Records is held by Keith Liddell, who can throw punches that clocked in at 45mph (20.1168)
I would say that in order to completely blitz a normal human, then a character would need to be faster than the fastest fighters in real life.
So, 15 m/s to 20 m/s (Or 3x to 4x faster)

Although Keith Liddell is not really a professional fighter, he still appears to be quite athletic, but I would say that Ricky Hatton is a better option since he is a professional boxer, so my decision on 3x speed for blitzing remains intact.

Do you know if it's possible for a well trained fighter to dodge Keith's 45 mph punch?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

"People feel like "x" makes sense"
"It should be y"
"I hear z is enough"

Outstanding thread guys.

Do you know if it's possible for a well trained fighter to dodge Keith's 45 mph punch?

Also a necro, please do not bring it up dead threads

 

[KingTempest]

necro