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[Speed Equalized] Chara vs Super Dimentio

Tivanenk said:
Chara doesn't have much determination, that's Frisk.
Click to expand...

No, they do. Just not much as Frisk. Also, we don't know their limits of determination at their absolute form. It could be even more than Frisk's.
 
Tivanenk, Chara can just reset to exit Dimension D, and Chara is the concept of the negative feelings associated with becoming more powerful through killing, unless everyone who embodies those feelings dies he is unkillable, and that includes Dimentio. Not to mention Chara has mid-godly regen and Dimentio has no method of erasing existence. So Dimentio doesn't even have a way to kill Chara, let alone bypass SAVE and LOAD.
 
@Landmaster NLF means no limits fallacy, it's basically when you say something doesn't have limits because it hasn't shown them. Saying that a character can resist a hax despite not having shown resistance to that hax is NLF, although no one has bothered explaining how powerful Dimentio's mind control is, so for all I know it might be something that can be stopped purely by willpower or something (which seems to be the case for a surprising amount of mind hax.)
 
Blahblah9755 said:
@Landmaster NLF means no limits fallacy, it's basically when you say something doesn't have limits because it hasn't shown them. Saying that a character can resist a hax despite not having shown resistance to that hax is NLF, although no one has bothered explaining how powerful Dimentio's mind control is, so for all I know it might be something that can be stopped purely by willpower or something (which seems to be the case for a surprising amount of mind hax.)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info :)
 
Current tally, if I haven't miscounted, is:

Chara: 6

Dimentio: 6

Inconclusive: 1

Man, this is close!
 
Going for inconclusive due to reasons stated. Technically, SAVE and LOAD makes Chara unkillable, but I doubt Chara can take down Super Dimentio. And since this is Speed equalized... That just makes it even more inconclusive.
 
Chara's Regenerationn and incorporeal nature would be extremely troubling for Dimentio's projectile attacks, and I'm not 100% sure that Dimentio really has an answer for Chara's Possession and Soul Manipulation.

SAVE and LOAD and Determination as a whole is also big issue for Dimentio.

My vote's for Chara.
 
Now I stopped to look, Dimentio has several powers not mentioned in your profile.

He have Forcefields, A Orange Energy (IDK if Fire, Energy or Elemental Manipulation), True Flight, Levitation, Intangibility, Creation, Some kind of Destruction or Reality Manipulation (IDK the classification of this), Illusions, Intangibility/Creating Intangible Clones, Creating Tangible Clones (appear to be about thousands), Flipping Between Dimensions (this is a powerful HAX, and yes, this is mathematical dimensions), Destroying Matter-Time-Space-Universes, Creating Matter-Time-Space-Universes, Void Manipulation, Mathematical Dimensions Manipulation, and several others.

I believe that writing a prophetic book (Dark Prognosticus) would give him also Long-Range Precognition, but IDK for sure.
 
The "Forcefield" is likely what the Mirror Magic on his page is referring to and he does not have Intangibility, Mario clearly hits him, and he already has cloning on his page.

He already has Reality Manipulation, that "Orange Energy" is a simple explosion.

Destroying Universes is the reason he has his AP?

The flipping between dimensions would not help him because it's flipping between 2-D and 3-D.
 
No, Mirror Magic refers to ability to play its image in mirror. By the way, it is also missing Magic itself in his profile beyond the Magic Mirror. And he has Intangibility, you can see that Mario tries to attack him at times but it is not intended, and just going through it. Just do not have all the time. Overall it uses when it is moving, not when stationary.

Perhaps.

Yes, that's why, but I believe it also includes inter the powers, as in the case of Mammoth Mogul.

Whether will help in this battle or not, I'm talking about the powers he has and do not appear in the profile here, just because I do not think it is necessary to open a new thread for it.
 
He attacked a clone, Chugga literally addresses that.

Keep in mind, I don't think Dimentio's Void Manipulation will help him out against a conceptual entity who could regenerate from nothing and reset itself.
 
NotAMarioFan(lol) said:
I have to go with Dimentio the Chaos Heart would protect him from Clara's attacks. But I'm not sure but as for now Super Dimentio.
Click to expand...
I don't think it would protect him from Soul Manipulation and Possession, the Chaos Heart making Dimentio invincible should be regarded as an NLF.

Even then, most of Dimentio's forms of attack won't do anything against Chara because of their Determination and Incorporeal nature.
 
He did not attack a clone or illusion, see that when Dimentio stopped Mario has been able to attack him, as I said. Clones that did him in this battle were not clones, were illusions, so all clones were intangible here (unlike Dimentio). It was only to make tangible clones here.
 
The whole area was an illusion, but that doesn't in anyway mean Dimentio is intangible, and if they were intangible, Mario wouldn't have touched them to begin with, so I'm not seeing what you are trying to prove here.

None of the clones even remotely attempted to attack Mario, so it's not as if they'd be any useful here either.
 
Besides, I'm not seeing anything about being conceptual entity in Chara's profile, the only thing I see is close to that Acausality.

"An entity that is acausal has no true beginning or end, and is thus essentially immune to offensive causality manipulation and time travel. Even if you go back in time and kill an acausal being in the past or prevent him/her/it from being born/created, it will still exist in the present and other timelines. Often, even if an acausal being is killed in the present, it can still survive by appearing from another timeline. Thus, acausal beings are very difficult to permanently destroy, often requiring the use of high-level reality warping."

This means that no matter how the past or future opponent is, Chara will always be there. And to destroy permanently a timeline, Chara may still appear in another timeline.

But I do not see why a being that does not begin and end in the entire space-time would be problem for a force that destroys all timelines.
 
Chara's Immortality is Type 8, Reliant Immortality:

"The power to be immortal so long as a certain object, person, concept etc. exists."

Chara's reasoning for this immortality is the fact that they are conceptual entity that embodies "the player's will to kill those in their way just to gain things such as exp and gold; the feeling which you use to justify to yourself the happiness you acquire from murdering an enemy just to level up." and they will continue to exist as long as this feeling can be felt by a sentient being.
 
No, if someone can feel the need to kill, Chara will exist. Which isn't really helping Dimentio's case.
 
Talonmask said:
Chara's reasoning for this immortality is the fact that they are conceptual entity that embodies "the player's will to kill those in their way just to gain things such as exp and gold; the feeling which you use to justify to yourself the happiness you acquire from murdering an enemy just to level up." and they will continue to exist as long as this feeling can be felt by a sentient being.
Click to expand...
Question about that, if Super D just nukes the universe, wouldn't Chara cease to exist in the current timeline due to the lack of the concept?

Furthermore, do concepts themselves (like D) count as "Sentient" for that? I mean, let's say "D" destroys the universes and erases the timeline, then all that exists is him and Chara. D himself is a concept of evil (or darkness, it's been too long since Paper Mario).
 
Aparajita said:
Question about that, if Super D just nukes the universe, wouldn't Chara cease to exist in the current timeline due to the lack of the concept?

Furthermore, do concepts themselves (like D) count as "Sentient" for that? I mean, let's say "D" destroys the universes and erases the timeline, then all that exists is him and Chara. D himself is a concept of evil (or darkness, it's been too long since Paper Mario).
Click to expand...
No, because then they would have ceased to exist when they destroyed the reality of Undertale, and in this case, Dimentio is a sentient being, so Chara will still exist.
 
No, because then they would have ceased to exist when they destroyed the reality of Undertale, and in this case, Dimentio is a sentient being, so Chara will still exist.

As well "Dimentio is a sentient being"?
 
"kill those in their way just to gain things such as exp and gold; the feeling which you use to justify to yourself the happiness you acquire from murdering an enemy just to level up." does not seem to be the kind of feeling that Dimentio has, after all, and the enemy is himself, his goals go far these.
 
In Undertale LV is LOVE/Level of Violence, which is your capacity to hurt others, leveling up is increasing your level of violence, that is what Chara embodies.

It doesn't have to be his goal, if Dimentio is even remotely capable of feeling the urge to hurt others (which he definitely is), Chara will exist.
 
People he'd kill for loyalty or consequence of the destruction of all, he wanted the seat of power, not by anger or desire to kill someone. This was not the feeling that he has shown, there is nothing that says he has no desire or will to hurt anyone. Count Bleck showed that wish, Dimentio not.
 
You do realize that with destroying the universe, he would be killing millions upon millions of people? He had to have known, killing for something is still having a desire to kill, it shows your capacity to hurt others.
 
"In Undertale LV is LOVE/Level of Violence, which is your capacity to hurt others, leveling up is increasing your level of violence, that is what Chara embodies."

Read please. Dimentio possesses a strong capacity and will to hurt, there's no working around that, he manipulated Mario and co. into doing his bidding and sought to destroy everything and create a universe in which he would rule.
 
MonaPizzaX said:
Chara is just a kid with a knife. S/he needs frisk determination to save/load (sorry for my bad english)
Click to expand...
You do realize that Chara is at their absolute here and no longer needs Frisk? Please read their profiles and refrain from downplaying.
 
Talonmask said:
"In Undertale LV is LOVE/Level of Violence, which is your capacity to hurt others, leveling up is increasing your level of violence, that is what Chara embodies."
Read please. Dimentio possesses a strong capacity and will to hurt, there's no working around that, he manipulated Mario and co. into doing his bidding and sought to destroy everything and create a universe in which he would rule.
Click to expand...
But he didn't kill because he wanted to kill. He had his own goals. Ever wonder why Chara never showed up on the neutral route? Because Frisk didn't kill because he wanted to do so, but rather of self-defense.

I'm voting for Dimentio because of void manipulation and his mind manipulation factors btw.
 
That doesn't not counter my point, regardless of his goals, he possessed the capacity to hurt someone, not out of self-defense, but because he could.

Dimentio doesn't have possession, and I've already addressed that his void manipulation will not put Chara down.
 
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