Speed Equal Snafu

[Sir_Ovens]

Ok so the current speed equal rules state that a naturally faster character cannot be blitzed by a naturally slower character who has a speed amp. But like this rule is so arbitrary and dumb? When you equalize speed, that doesn't become a factor anymore. Amping speed is now an ability and an advantage. It should not be discounted just because one character would blitz the other in a non-speed equal setting.

And while we're on the topic, I think it should be made clear that speed equal applies to the fastest reactions and combat speed. This means that they do not equalize to movement speed, which is what I see on some threads now.

 

[Wokistan]

Nah it's pretty good. A slower character beating someone via being faster is really stupid. The intention of equalizing speed was to take speed out of the equation entirely, not for you to get to pick and choose who wins because one person has an amp. Removing that also encourages people to hide speed feats and categorize them as amps instead, because then they'd cheat around the rule. We don't really stand to benefit from encouraging more vs debate metagaming.

And yeah the base for equalizing isn't movement speed lol that would make like half the site get put in a really weird spot and pretty much just negate the reason for equalizing.

 

[FinePoint]

I have to agree with Wokistan.

It seems extremely unfair to let someone win a matchup via speed against a character they would normally be 1000x slower than, for example.

Equalization rules have always been iffy to me, and I've not been able to get answers from people. It would benefit everyone if the wording was clearer. Maybe an example should be given, or something.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I honestly feel the same way that the others about the amp part, and I also think is good to make completely clear the speed equalization part.

Since we are talking about speed equal rules I think should be added a note that in cases where a character fight mainly via summons (be it because the characters itself is useless without them or because it could only damage the opponent with a summon do to tier difference) the speed equalization apply to the summon, in other words, the opponent became as fast as the summon instead of the summoner since the one doing the actual fight is the summon. This would prevent that people do claims like the one from the case "stands blitz because the opponent speed is equalizated to the user while the stand speed stay the same", which is dumb and with the same logic any summoner match become a blitz if they begin with their summons, for example with the same logic Ash will always blitz if he have Pikachu, which obviously don't make any sense.

 

[Wokistan]

Well the reason stands don't blitz people is because the users of the stands demonstrably do not have such a massive discrepancy in terms of what they can react to, rather than anything summoner specific, and I think it's generally a better idea to avoid getting summoner specific both because of the ability to pull up really weird summoners like I did last time, and due to people who'll mix and match. Your idea could be cheesed out by someone who just summons some slow, slovenly brute and that magically amping the summoner, for example.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Is because of the weird possible summons that I said the part about a character that fight mainly with summons (so that don't fight himself) or that only can damage the opponent with a summon because of tier difference (summoner physically 10-B and with a 7-B summon against a 7-B opponent for example), also in the case of characters who fighting style rely mainly in summon beings to fight for them then most of the time the summon have a far higher speed than the summoner so this can cover that. Though if in the end is too specific then I guess it can be discarted, at least if is made clear that specific cases like the stand users one aren't blitz.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So this thread is a no then?

 

[The_Impress]

And yeah the base for equalizing isn't movement speed lol that would make like half the site get put in a really weird spot and pretty much just negate the reason for equalizing.

...Wait what? This actually makes people with high movement speeds just be what, missiles now?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah that's still an issue worth discussing even if the former revision is rejected.

 

[Imaginym]

I am a bit curious about Speed Equalization.
Like, what makes something a Reaction Speed or a Movement Speed or Combat Speed?
How does Speed Equalized affect which?

Well the reason stands don't blitz people is because the users of the stands demonstrably do not have such a massive discrepancy in terms of what they can react to,

Huh?

rather than anything summoner specific, and I think it's generally a better idea to avoid getting summoner specific both because of the ability to pull up really weird summoners like I did last time, and due to people who'll mix and match. Your idea could be cheesed out by someone who just summons some slow, slovenly brute and that magically amping the summoner, for example.

I mean, I look at say.... https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Jotaro_Kujo
Speed: Superhuman (Ran approximately 400 meters in 22 seconds[21]) with Massively FTL reactions
At least Massively FTL with Star Platinum

As is, Speed Equalizes to the Slower Speed, right? & a Stand is just an "Ability" of the character, not a Summon, right?

So if you're faster than Jotaro, Speed Equalized being Equalized to the Slower character means you go to Jotaro's Superhuman, right?
Thus, Star Platinum Speed Blitzes you, doesn't it?
& if you're faster than Star Platinum or slower than Jotaro, you still get Speed Blitzed, don't you?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I am a bit curious about Speed Equalization.
Like, what makes something a Reaction Speed or a Movement Speed or Combat Speed?
How does Speed Equalized affect which?


Huh?


I mean, I look at say.... https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Jotaro_Kujo
Speed: Superhuman (Ran approximately 400 meters in 22 seconds[21]) with Massively FTL reactions
At least Massively FTL with Star Platinum

As is, Speed Equalizes to the Slower Speed, right? & a Stand is just an "Ability" of the character, not a Summon, right?

So if you're faster than Jotaro, Speed Equalized being Equalized to the Slower character means you go to Jotaro's Superhuman, right?
Thus, Star Platinum Speed Blitzes you, doesn't it?
& if you're faster than Star Platinum or slower than Jotaro, you still get Speed Blitzed, don't you?

.... My ******* brain hurts.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I am a bit curious about Speed Equalization.
Like, what makes something a Reaction Speed or a Movement Speed or Combat Speed?
How does Speed Equalized affect which?


Huh?


I mean, I look at say.... https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Jotaro_Kujo
Speed: Superhuman (Ran approximately 400 meters in 22 seconds[21]) with Massively FTL reactions
At least Massively FTL with Star Platinum

As is, Speed Equalizes to the Slower Speed, right? & a Stand is just an "Ability" of the character, not a Summon, right?

So if you're faster than Jotaro, Speed Equalized being Equalized to the Slower character means you go to Jotaro's Superhuman, right?
Thus, Star Platinum Speed Blitzes you, doesn't it?
& if you're faster than Star Platinum or slower than Jotaro, you still get Speed Blitzed, don't you?

This is a legit question about the topic. I've faced that multiple times when debating JoJo Vs Threads. The speed that is being equalized is Jotaro's speed, not Star Platinum's.

 

[Imaginym]

.... My ******* brain hurts.

I apologize if I explained poorly, or misunderstood things.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Imo the Stand's combat, reaction and movement speed should be equalized in the same way the user speed is.

 

[The_Impress]

I mean I think that’s a verse-focused argument, if Stands are abilities vs. summons, because summons do also get speed equalized.

 

[Imaginym]

I mean I think that’s a verse-focused argument, if Stands are abilities vs. summons, because summons do also get speed equalized.

Nonetheless, whether it's an Ability or a Summon, it feels a little problematic that you can get Speed Blitzed by it, whether Speed is Equalized or not.
If any setting has similar "abilities" to Stands, couldn't a similar matter come up?

 

[Blahblah9755]

And while we're on the topic, I think it should be made clear that speed equal applies to the fastest reactions and combat speed. This means that they do not equalize to movement speed, which is what I see on some threads now.

What exactly are you suggesting changes here? Because first off, this is wrong, since we equalize based on combat speed, not reactions, which are distinct even if they often overlap. And second, this is already stated clearly in the versus thread rules.

Nonetheless, whether it's an Ability or a Summon, it feels a little problematic that you can get Speed Blitzed by it, whether Speed is Equalized or not.
If any setting has similar "abilities" to Stands, couldn't a similar matter come up?

I feel like the best solution to this is to handle it like SBA, and give a default assumption, but say that it can be decided on by the OP or discussed in the thread if necessary. Something like, “in cases where a character possesses multiple combat speeds, the OP can choose which combat speed characters are equalized to. If not specified, assume it equalizes to the fastest combat speed they possess at the start of the fight. If this is deemed unfair, discuss an alternative combat speed to use in the thread.”

 

[The_Impress]

What exactly are you suggesting changes here? Because first off, this is wrong, since we equalize based on combat speed, not reactions, which are distinct even if they often overlap. And second, this is already stated clearly in the versus thread rules.

I don't feel like a single person across the wiki treats it like this, because that makes higher speed characters master dodgers due to having laughably higher reflexes than their opponents, negating speed equalization to begin with.

Honestly we should probably just give, a speedblitz margin first, because I don't think we ever do.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Have you actually read the speed equalization rules? Any speed other than combat speed is supposed to have the same multiplicative decrease applied to it that combat speed would, so the only time this would make someone a master dodger is if they already are a master dodger whose reaction speed surpasses their combat speed.

 

[The_Impress]

Have you actually read the speed equalization rules?

For the record I have read multiple policy pages, yeah. Most of them are shit and need excessive rewrites, to an extent I have made multiple staff threads to unfuck them.

I know what the page says, dude, I'm saying what's said by you is wrong.

In general quit saying shit while not giving further context because I'd presume you're just saying something the page doesn't list (which you just did, currently you're rephrasing your own argument to be less wonk by saying "no we actually multiplicatively decrease that"), and bigger one, don't act condescending over it, no one's exactly going " rEaD tHe RuLeS" on you, something undermining my knowledge of wiki standard, you could just clarify what you meant normally :/

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I do agree with the need to change speed equal rules
I also agree with Wokistan points regarding slower characters winning against faster characters by speed amp

Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.

I believe this is one of the issues. it equalized the speed of the faster character but doesn't do anything to the slower character. so a person with a combat speed of superhuman that can fire a projectile at lightning speed or light speed would always be at an advantage or if they have something faster than their own combat speed because it's not getting affected by current speed equal rule (although at that point those matches shouldn't be added due to the slower character technically winning because of massive speed advantage) making it hard for them to be in a speed equal match

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Following, and, BUMP

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

The point of equalizing speed is to make it a non-factor initially. The current rule on this is just completely arbitrary and stupid and solely exists because "but slower character win through speed dum" which, as already stated, is a non-argument.

So, I agree with the OP.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, rule is kind of arbitrary, it essentially equalize and denies one or more abilities of the character just because it may be unfair. If the battle remain being a speedblitz, or may turn into one during the duration of the battle, even after equalizing, then well, too bad.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I feel this need to be talked majorly

For the record, i didn't encounter a problem about speed issue until my Kokushibo vs Misaka, that's where it became so confusing for me (and in the end the matches got abandoned by me and the others)
Other issue i encounter is my Max Steel vs Raikou and yeah, it has the problem that (are now) being talked in this thread

 

[StekFence]

On the topic of stand specifically, just have the op equalize to the stands speed. Problem solved.