Speed Equal gone?

[Tllmbrg]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/minor-addition-adding-speed-equalized-to-standards-battle-assumptions.108594/#post-3373360

Since lots of staff showed dislike to the idea in general and the thread got closed might as well have a dedicated thread for it
Personally I'd support discouraging it rather then outright ban it

Since there're battles that outside are a really good idea so for those cases I think speed equal is okay, but we should disallow it for just a random ass match

 

[The_Impress]

N o .

 

[Tllmbrg]

Details woman

 

[Wokistan]

Given you barely need to be faster than someone to stomp them, especially at close range, gonna say no. It's the one concession we make because almost every match needs it to function in a normal way, because speed OP. If it works without equalizing you shouldn't equalize, but there's not a ton of fights that work without equalizing.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, I'm not saying we should get rid of it outright, I only was strongly against making it a SBA. I'm neutral on the topic, though I did say it's double standardish to allow SE but not allow hax disabling. But at the same time, barely any threads would be added to profiles. In fact, Matt I vaguely recall mentioned he'd prefer if we removed notable victories and losses from profiles if Speed equalized is going to be allowed.

I think we should just mostly stick to our main rules, policies, and guidelines.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Huh?

 

[The_Impress]

To be fair, by the logic of "Speed Equalized shouldn't be SBA", "In character, but willing to kill." should be removed from SBA as well. That's also forcing a standard which breaks character showcase :V

 

[Wokistan]

Sure

 

[ElixirBlue]

I mean, one is about stats and the other is character motivation. Otherwise, most hero vs hero fights are going to end them up as friends with no conclusion.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The only change we should eventually make is to start having categories for AP and Speed, like we have for tiers, so that one can use the Intersection API to filter for working not speed equalized matches.
If matches that work without speed equal are easier to find they would also be more common. At least that's my thinking.

 

[Bobsican]

The only change we should eventually make is to start having categories for AP and Speed, like we have for tiers, so that one can use the Intersection API to filter for working not speed equalized matches.
If matches that work without speed equal are easier to find they would also be more common. At least that's my thinking.

I'm sure that was declined out of the sheer effort this would lead to, it's a pretty site wide proyect that affects every single profile, and I don't think it's something a bot can take care of.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm sure that was declined out of the sheer effort this would lead to, it's a pretty site wide proyect that affects every single profile, and I don't think it's something a bot can take care of.

I know, but a man can dream.
Also we can, like, do it gradually. It ain't like there is any reason those categories have to consistently be on every profile.

 

[Bobsican]

TBH I wouldn't oppose it, it's just a category, like any other addition it doesn't have to be something consistently on everything from the start.

Anyways, regarding Speed Equalization being SBA, well, often I even have to say "Speed not equalized" as otherwise it's assumed that it is quite often from what I've seen. I don't think it should be removed for the sake of match-up making, and I would support Speed Equalization just being applied by SBA to avoid headaches from new members doing match-ups, although I'm also fine with the "unequalized" variant being the default option by SBA to remain consistent with the "at peak" part of SBA.

 

[The_Impress]

I mean, one is about stats and the other is character motivation. Otherwise, most hero vs hero fights are going to end them up as friends with no conclusion.

Standard Tactics is literally a field on the pages now , and if they don't, good.

Most Non-Speed Equalized matches are going to end up as one side speed blitzing the other horribly therefore creating a stomp.

Exact same logic you're using there :V

 

[ElixirBlue]

Not sure they are the same thing.

One prevents fights from finishing thanks to pesky morality. (100% In Character)

The other negates skill/intelligent/activated hax/AP is useless/and possibly durability. (Speed)

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

I'm not sure yet if I agree with this CRT or not

 

[ElixirBlue]

I agree with Speed Equalized as an option but not mandatory. I like to prove how strong Sonic is without speed blitzing his opponents.

 

[The_Impress]

Not sure they are the same thing.

One prevents fights from finishing thanks to pesky morality. (100% In Character)

The other negates skill/intelligent/activated hax/AP is useless/and possibly durability. (Speed)

Said Pesky Morality is a part of character and is very definitely misrepresentation you're doing on threads. Superman wouldn't ever kill a person for the lolz, you're violating decades of character representation, and this is STANDARD

This is you just cherrypicking here, both lead to misrepresentation, both are something that we do list on profiles (Again, see Standard Tactic), both are being applied to make matches more feasible only, and the distinction you're making (Stats vs. Character) is an arbitrary or semantic reasoning based off your own ideal of "Stats are more important than character"

Also again do people not know SBA doesn't make shit mandatory? It's a guideline. Not a rule.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Said Pesky Morality is a part of character and is very definitely misrepresentation you're doing on threads. Superman wouldn't ever kill a person for the lolz, you're violating decades of character representation, and this is STANDARD

both lead to misrepresentation

Sure, but neither would be represented to the other side if speed blitz was allowed. One look on the opponent’s page and they see the difference in speed and already conclude the match, without talking about Haxes, Skill, intelligence or even AP. Ultimately, Low interaction.

and the distinction you're making (Stats vs. Character) is an arbitrary or semantic reasoning based off your own ideal of "Stats are more important than character"

To be fair, by the logic of "Speed Equalized shouldn't be SBA", "In character, but willing to kill." should be removed from SBA as well. That's also forcing a standard which breaks character showcase

I was just talking about character motivation because you were implying they have the same consideration in how we handle it to be same with Speed. I was just highlighting that there’s a difference between the two that make them both unique cases.

do people not know SBA doesn't make shit mandatory? It's a guideline. Not a rule.

Speed Equalized is unique to VSBW, as far as I can tell. Death Battle, and others, don’t use it as far as I can tell but VSBW is not Death Battle. New users definitely needs to see them in OPs if Speed Equalized's are being used in a match.

 

[The_Impress]

One takes a look at the character being Superman, and says "No." Ultimately, low interaction :V. Also love that you forget our Speed margins are ******* massive and even of you are the same speed tier (Massively Hypersonic+) you can very well speedblitz, so you have to check values and verify regardless. Same amount of effort.

You're highlighting that difference and I said that difference is arbitrary

Death Battles doesn't use alot of shit, like the concept that "being a bajillion times stronger still means the opponent can somehow tank your punches" and "blatant stomps are somehow extended to full fights".

Also you're forgetting not everyone comes from a Vs. Debating background, and this is their first community. In-character but willing to kill would STILL be important to list anyhow. And our standards of Verse Equalization, Setting, Range and Character Version is unique to us as well

 

[Ionliosite]

I agree with Zark on this tbh.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Zark seems correct here

 

[ElixirBlue]

I also agree with Zark, I think

Which is weird, because I think she is agreeing with me that Speed Equalization should be an option unlike the manipulation of morality listed in SBA we always seem to have to do for verse matches.

I don't know what Ion and Ican'tthinkof1goodname is agreeing with but I'm assuming its the same.

 

[The_Impress]

I am less so agreeing "it should be an option", moreso "if you're saying this isn't valid for SBA then fix the in-haracter thing and remove it as well" :V

SBA is always optional lol, your point there is completely nonsensical to me ngl

 

[ElixirBlue]

SBA is always optional lol, your point there is completely nonsensical to me

Is it? More often than not, SBA is brought up a lot when the OP doesn't have a lot of info and other debaters use SBA on everyone. Doesn't seem optional, as going against SBA when people want to default to it while others don't, creates a toxic thread.

So, if someone wants a non speed equalized match, but the OP hasn't said anything, and someone says "SBA! SBA! Speed is equalized!!", how can someone argue against that without it turning into a shit show?

I am less so agreeing "it should be an option", moreso "if you're saying this isn't valid for SBA then fix the in-haracter thing and remove it as well"

...? I still don't see how Speed has the same benefit of being listed as "Standard Battle Assumption" compare to in-character morality manipulation, that allows even coward characters or characters that don't fight at all, to give it their all.

 

[ElixirBlue]

hmm.......

hmmmmm.....

Actually, after thinking about for an hour or so, I might have to change the direction my head was heading in with this. Zark might have a point about making Speed Equalized in SBA much easier and simpler for everybody than it not being in there.

(I feel Zark's glaring eyes on me like she did when I was arguing Buggy vs Kamala Khan)

 

[QuasiYuri]

Am I the only who find weird that Speed equal is allowed, but not some others stats being equalized?

Technically anything changing statistics should be optionnal; if the standard is "we don't take the character with all of his true stats" it kinda go against it being the base of anything.

 

[The_Impress]

More often than not, SBA is brought up a lot when the OP doesn't have a lot of info and other debaters use SBA on everyone.

Then they're wrong.

Every single point in SBA can be ignored by the OP.

"Assumptions alternative to these ones can be freely used, are equally legitimate, and threads using different assumptions can be added to profiles just like these ones can." From the SBA page itself.

 

[Wokistan]

I think what Elixir is saying is arguing for not SBA standards when OP doesn't specify, which no you can't do. OP (and technically mods) are free to set their thread according to standards contrary to SBA, but if they don't say shit SBA is in play by default.

 

[The_Impress]

If they don't say shit it's the OP's problems, not SBA. If you think your character is being disadvantaged, just remake the match with conditions you prefer.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I'm just bringing up likely arguments that could happen and be aware of that possibility.

I'm so use to Speed Equalized that I don't particularly care if its SBA for matches. Personally. I'm thinking about new users and how they could get confused, as I was(still am) ignorant.

That, and, can you add the same match to profiles twice?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean if you want to neg and severely limit many unique vs debates because speed and AP would have to be very similar for two characters to even fight, then yeah you can get rid of Speed Equalized

If you didn't get my Sarcasm, I'm completely against getting rid of Equalized Speed Matches

 

[ElixirBlue]

I am,

Pro: Speed Equalized existing and being used

Iffy: Speed Equalized in SBA

 

[Thelastmlg]

I agree that speed equal shouldn't be on SBA but still a option, like, most matches i saw here have it, the number of possible versus threads would probably be halved or worse.

Also willing to kill =/= going to kill for the lolz, if the character doesn't kill, SBA won't do shit, they will just incap.