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Speed downgrades for high-tiers to below-lightspeed

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Goodyfresh

Goodyfresh

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Hey so I'm a HUGE fan of Toriko with a pretty much encyclopedic knowledge of everything in the series, and I am almost positive that none of the high-tiers are actually FTL. The idea that they are is based on a feat by Bambina in which he supposedly had to move FTL in order to dodge "Mold Spears" being thrown at point-blank range at near-lightspeed. But here's the thing. They WEREN'T at lightspeed, just a significantly high percentage of it (relativistic). Even if he can dodge projectiles at near-lightspeed at point-blank range, that still only would require lightspeed-reflexes and high-relativistic speed; one does not actually NEED FTL speed to dodge near-lightspeed attacks, all one needs is speed near that of light even higher than that of the attacks.

Why do I think he is not FTL? Because I do not think ANY of the Eight Kings or human characters in Toriko are FTL, and "ANOTHER" is the only entity in the series which is truly FTL! Why? Because the series made a HUGELY BIG DEAL about the fact that Another can surpass lightspeed, as if it is unique in that respect. Moreover, the mechanics of the series have been established that IN ORDER TO SURPASS LIGHTSPEED, a being like Another has to ENTER A HYPERSPACE DIMENSION, the Back Channel. We never saw Bambina do so when he was dodging the Mold Spears! He was just moving normally. His movements did not open a rift in space, and it is EXPLICITLY stated that wherever a being surpasses lightspeed in the Toriko-verse, it opens up a rift in space (Gate into the Spirit World, specifically) which will then stay in that spot seemingly indefinitely, because that is what Another had to do in order to surpass lightspeed to escape Whale King Moon (which, of course, also establishes Whale King Moon as DEFINITELY not FTL).

So, I firmly believe that all the high-tiers of Toriko should have their speed downgraded to high-relativistic.

Now, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "but in one of the latest chapters, they're starting to fight God, and Starjun says that with speed like that God could be on the other side of the planet in an instant. Goodyfresh, that is totally a statement claiming a being in the series besides Another has FTL speed! And then there was that time that Wolf King Guiness traveled thousands of miles in like, a millisecond!" Well, that could just as easily be a case of (and this happens VERY commonly in such works) the author/mangaka not knowing diddley-squat about physics or about what actual lightspeed really is. Just look up "writers don't know math" on TV Tropes, guys. It could also be a function of that universe having a DIFFERENT VALUE for the speed of light than our own universe. Either way, that still doesn't mean that the being in question HAS to be FTL!
 
Cropfist said:
It would be easier if there was a calc for the feat.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that's even possible for this one, either for the Bambina feat OR for the Wolf King Guinness feat. We do not know the actual exact speed of the mold-spears Coco threw in terms of percentage-of-lightspeed (i.e. were they 90%? 95 percent? 99.99999 percent? No idea, it's never stated). We also do not know the exact distance that Wolf King Guinness traveled in his feat. ANd unfortunately, Shimabukuro Mitsutoshi is pretty damn inconsistent in his portrayal of relative proportions and distances in his work. . . .but I suppose a rough calc could still be made. I should try to do it at some point.

One always has to keep in mind though something else specifically concerning Bambina and the other "King" members: They possess "ultimate instinct," it's basically like spider-sense. It's a preternatural danger-sense, if you will. In fact, "battle precognition" of some kind should probably be added to the list of abilities for each of the Eight Kings, because it has been stated they do have such an ability due to their incomprehensibly-evolved animal-instincts. This should allow Bambina to anticipate the trajectory of Coco's attacks as long as Coco is not able to throw out the attacks instantaneously and with zero thought--which he isn't! As long as Coco has to take any time at all to prepare to throw the mold-spears, the attack will be "telegraphed" in some way from Bambina's perspectives due to his insane instincts. So Bambina definitely wouldn't need to be any faster than the attacks themselves in order to dodge them. . . . . . .

I think the bigger point here, though, is the already-established in-verse mechanics for FTL travel--namely, the Another arc established that a creature was not able to achieve FTL speeds without opening a rift to the Spirit World, seriously.
 
Coco's Mold Spears being almost lightspeed was a mistranslation. They actually move at lightspeed and Bambina casually dodged 6 of them. Bambina is FTL. There is no way that Another is the only FTL being in the series when you have characters casually dodging 6 spears that travel at light speed.
YYIohgh
 
"At the speed of light" could just be a way of saying "very high relativistic," i.e. something like 99.999% lightspeed, which perceptually-speaking would be completely indistinguishable from lightspeed except, say, for a being able to move at 99.99999% lightspeed, which could easily perceive the difference! That could very well be the kind of speed-difference we are talking about between Bambina and the Mold Spears. Moreover, why would the mold-spores traveling at lightspeed or near-lightspeed even be considered a big deal if it turns out that FTL and MFTL speeds are actually possible in that verse?

I honestly do not think the actual mechanics of the series allow for FTL travel via purely physical means, anyway. Seriously. While he's gotten really far out there with it, the mangaka made a point for a long time of showing that the various powers in the series had a semi-scientific explanation based on real-world physics and cellular biology. It just does not seem consistent with the writing for Another to be unique and special in being able to escape one of the Eight Kings precisely because it's FTL, and needing to open an actual rift in space in order to go FTL, only for the Eight Kings themselves to be FTL in the physical world with no need to travel into the Back Channel to reach such speeds. If they were FTL, that would also mean that Bambina or Wolf King Guinness could catch Another. . . . .while you're telling me Whale King Moon, the Mightiest of the Eight Kings, whose mouth is a literal black hole, could not?

God could very well be a special exeception though and capable of FTL speeds, it's a "Divine Beast" and all that, perhaps every single one of its cells independently produces a Back Channel or something. Wouldn't be surprising at all.


Anyway the biggest thing I think folks are not considering is that from Bambina's perspective, Coco telegraphed the attacks prior to throwing them. Nobody is considering the insanely evolved instincts, senses, and pretty-much-psychic combat-sense possessed by creatures like Bambina and Guinness. As far as Bambina was concerned while "playing around" with the Four Heavenly Kings, Coco telegraphed his mold-spears with the EM-waves, smells, sounds, and visible tensing of muscles coming from his body probably at least a few microseconds-to-milliseconds before actually throwing the spears. All Bambina would need is speed comparable to spears themselves, right around lightspeed, in order to dodge them considering that Coco is not nearly as great a combatant and looks like a complete amateur in Bambina's eyes. The spears may travel at lightspeed or close to it once released, but Coco's own combat-speed and muscle-movements are nowhere near that; it's the mold in the spears themselves that propels them to their insane speeds, you see, not Coco's muscles as he throws them. Thus giving Bambina plenty of time to observe Coco's movements leading to and during the throw.
 
As far as I remember there are calculation about their speed to be FTL, also depend on how much FTL another is then Bambina or Wolf King Guinness might not able to cach him even if they was FTL, also do telling that MOON gonna one-shot the other king simply becasue you need to travel FTL in order to fight him? like even light cant escape black hole then why mother snake can survive fighing against moon?
 
Goodyfresh said:
"At the speed of light" could just be a way of saying "very high relativistic," i.e. something like 99.999% lightspeed, which perceptually-speaking would be completely indistinguishable from lightspeed except, say, for a being able to move at 99.99999% lightspeed,
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1 thing for sure we not gonna use your own opinions over official sources.
 
Just look at the page where it happens: [1]

Yes, Coco and the others TELEGRAPHED that attack. Until the spears were actually released via the throw, the movement of the throw itself was easily visible to Bambina.

That's why I question whether he was really FTL.

Now, looking at that page one can see all those little individual weavings "between" the spears. If somebody COULD do a calc proving that he HAD to be FTL to do that if the spears were moving at, say, 99% lightspeed, then I'd be satisfied and drop the subject and admit to being wrong, guys.

There does seem to be a lot of inconsistency in Toriko, though, with regards to feats *sighs* You have to wonder why Another being able to go FTL to escape Moon would even be a thing at all if other members of the Eight Kings are FTL. . . . . . . . . .
 
Goodyfresh said:
There does seem to be a lot of inconsistency in Toriko, though, with regards to feats *sighs* You have to wonder why Another being able to go FTL to escape Moon would even be a thing at all if other members of the Eight Kings are FTL. . . . . . . . . .
Click to expand...
FTL (x1-10 Speed of Light)

There are different level of FTL, your argument is not make sense
 
""At the speed of light" could just be a way of saying "very high relativistic," i.e. something like 99.999% lightspeed"

I doubt that. If the author wanted the spears to travel at 99.999% LS then he would of stated that the spears travel nearly at lightspeed, but the scan clearly says "It travels at the Speed of Light".

" Moreover, why would the mold-spores traveling at lightspeed or near-lightspeed even be considered a big deal"

Because if the mold spears only traveled at near lightspeed then it could be arugued that Bambina is either capable of moving at extremely high Relativistic+ or Lightspeed. But because they travel at lightspeed, and theres 6 of them, there is no way you could dodge 6 LS projectiles without being FTL.

"If they were FTL, that would also mean that Bambina or Wolf King Guinness could catch Another"

Not necessary , all it means is that Another is on a higher degree of FTL than any of the 8 Kings.
 
But the rifts in space (the three Spirit Doors) were stated as specifically opening up AT THE EXACT SPOTS WHERE ANOTHER SURPASSED LIGHTSPEED TO ESCAPE THE WHALE KING! Not where it "reached a higher level of lightspeed to escape the whale king," no, but specifically where it broke the lightspeed-barrier to escape the whale king. This means:

1. Surpassing lightspeed takes some kind of usage of the back-channel, at the very least, for living organisms

2. Traveling at ANY level of FTL speed is sufficient to properly escape from one of the Eight Kings, in this case Whale King Moon.

The question is, what ARE the mechanics of FTL-movement in this verse? It's very unclear with the way the author has written it. If Bambina is somehow moving FTL, then HOW is he doing it? Just through pure physical locomotion? And does that mean that even though Whale King Moon is considered the mightiest, Bambina could escape from it because he's FTL? Perhaps that is the case? In which case I suppose I wouldn't be too opposed to the idea that Bambina could be FTL, I suppose. . . . .but I mean, is it all just a function of sloppy, fairly-inconsistent writing and art involving the feats in this series, on the mangaka's part? Honestly, I'm starting to think we should just chalk it up to that and leave things as they are, with Bambina FTL even though Another was portrayed as being so special for being FTL, being able to escape Moon and needing to open rifts in space to do it.

Gah, that's probably it, the series is just inconsistently written in terms of its mechanics >_< That's pretty frustrating. Good thing the series is so INCREDIBLY BADASS that I can easily forgive the mangaka for any plot-holes, haha.
 
But the rifts in space (the three Spirit Doors) were stated as specifically opening up AT THE EXACT SPOTS WHERE ANOTHER SURPASSED LIGHTSPEED TO ESCAPE THE WHALE KING! Not where it "reached a higher level of lightspeed to escape the whale king," no, but specifically where it broke the lightspeed-barrier to escape the whale king. This means:

1. Surpassing lightspeed takes some kind of usage of the back-channel, at the very least, for living organisms

2. Traveling at ANY level of FTL speed is sufficient to properly escape from one of the Eight Kings, in this case Whale King Moon.

The question is, what ARE the mechanics of FTL-movement in this verse? It's very unclear with the way the author has written it. If Bambina is somehow moving FTL, then HOW is he doing it? Just through pure physical locomotion? And does that mean that even though Whale King Moon is considered the mightiest, Bambina could escape from it because he's FTL? Perhaps that is the case? In which case I suppose I wouldn't be too opposed to the idea that Bambina could be FTL, I suppose. . . . .but I mean, is it all just a function of sloppy, fairly-inconsistent writing and art involving the feats in this series, on the mangaka's part? Honestly, I'm starting to think we should just chalk it up to that and leave things as they are, with Bambina FTL even though Another was portrayed as being so special for being FTL, being able to escape Moon and needing to open rifts in space to do it.

Gah, that's probably it, the series is just inconsistently written in terms of its mechanics >_< That's pretty frustrating. Good thing the series is so INCREDIBLY BADASS that I can easily forgive the mangaka for any plot-holes, haha.

I mean check this out though guys: [1] See what I'm talking about? Doesn't this seem inconsistent with other creatures portrayed so far being FTL aside from ANOTHER???? Gahhhhh, now I'm confusing myself.
 
Just ask to DontTalk About their calculation because if I not mistaken I remember him make a calculation that put bambina at 2 Times the speed of light or something like that.
 
Goodyfresh said:
but I mean, is it all just a function of sloppy, fairly-inconsistent writing and art involving the feats in this series, on the mangaka's part? Honestly, I'm starting to think we should just chalk it up to that and leave things as they are, with Bambina FTL even though Another was portrayed as being so special for being FTL, being able to escape Moon and needing to open rifts in space to do it.
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I think that it is inconsistent writing.
 
SwordSlayer99 said:
Goodyfresh said:
but I mean, is it all just a function of sloppy, fairly-inconsistent writing and art involving the feats in this series, on the mangaka's part? Honestly, I'm starting to think we should just chalk it up to that and leave things as they are, with Bambina FTL even though Another was portrayed as being so special for being FTL, being able to escape Moon and needing to open rifts in space to do it.
Click to expand...
I think that it is inconsistent writing.
Click to expand...
That's what I'm starting to think too, that the writer basically can't even make up his mind whether creatures in his manga being able to go FTL should be "rare and unique" or not. . . . . .or whether the relativistic physics of near-lightspeed movement for purely physically-driven locomotion applies to his verse, he seems to play fast-and-loose with that as well. So who knows really? Ugh.
 
There are some many things wrong with this thread that I am not really willing to entertain about...for example, 0.999% c being anywhere close to enough faster than 0.99% c to matter that significantly in a fight.

There are also complete fan theories like "Surpassing lightspeed takes some kind of usage of the back-channel, at the very least, for living organisms" that don't really have any sort of statements backing them.

This is also another fan theory: Traveling at ANY level of FTL speed is sufficient to properly escape from one of the Eight Kings, in this case Whale King Moon." We have no idea how much faster than light ANOTHER is.
 
But the story was told that Another escaped from Moon because it surpassed lightspeed, that the points where it escaped by surpassing lightspeed were the rifts in space, the Gates to the Spirit World.

But as others have also agreed with me on, the depiction of speed-feats is indeed VERY inconsistent in this manga when you look at it at all closely, and the author seems to show as little or even less understanding of the mechanics or math of speed, size, attack potency, etc. as is typical for authors of such works.

So I'm starting to agree that things really should just be taken at face-value and the author is just inconsistent--if something is dodging something at near-lightspeed then yeah, dude is FTL, fine, even though for some reason it was going FTL that made Another able to escape Moon. The author just can't make up his mind, and that's okay I guess as far as trying to tier the creatures goes--Bambina and Another can both be FTL.

The author has also been really inconsistent about a lot of other things, like attacks with potency at "planet level" and what-not, during the recent Gourmet World arcs, and seems to be rushing the story more and more, unfortunately.
 
It says it surpassed light speed and slipped into the back world, yes...but there is nothing that says that is a requirement of FTL speed.

He is very consistent with a lot of things...way more than other shounen works. All his characters line up in power development, excluding the 4 kings in this latest arc, and his speeds are somewhat consistent (the "escape to the other side of the world in a second") thing is relativistic at least.

All the 8 kings should be scaling to the speeds displayed by a sealed Bambina...Moon is even the strongest king
 
Actually i have a concern about this.

Apparently the manga image that Swordslayer showed earlier has it say that Coco's spear can go at the SoL, yes? But there are like several manga sites that i'm aware of (ex. Mangatown, *********, **********, etc.) that says it goes at NEAR the speed of light.

So the question is this: Which translation is correct, the one of the image Swordslayer showed or the ones from online that you can go and read/n check at anytime? Keep note that i have no clue which is the "most" accurate that's translated.
 
Wow and i can't believe it took me this long to find out there's actually a site that's turly accurate.....give or take, maybe? @Ichigo
 
Well aside from that, are we supposed to assume that Coco's Poison Spear is Near lightspeed or actually Lightspeed? I remember the calc that puts Coco's Poison Spear at City level and the creator of the calc assumed that it moved at 90%c, but it was more of part of the DC calc rather than also finding out it's speed so.......yeah. :/
 
I don't think it matters because it is just some form of FTL for now (the people who evade it). Even if it was "near" we still need to assume reasonably near
 
Alakabamm said:
It says it surpassed light speed and slipped into the back world, yes...but there is nothing that says that is a requirement of FTL speed.
He is very consistent with a lot of things...way more than other shounen works. All his characters line up in power development, excluding the 4 kings in this latest arc, and his speeds are somewhat consistent (the "escape to the other side of the world in a second") thing is relativistic at least.

All the 8 kings should be scaling to the speeds displayed by a sealed Bambina...Moon is even the strongest king
Click to expand...
Hmmmmmmmmm. Perhaps Moon is an exception to the Eight Kings being fast and isn't super-fast but is still the most powerful, and in terms of preying upon other creatures generally does not require speed due to having a black hole for a mouth. It would make sense with it being the only member of the Kings whose primary method of locomotion is swimming in water. But there's no way to be sure yet until we actually see Moon battle, and ther'es a very high chance that it IS super-ultra-fast after all.

Something else I never thought about until now, but now that I'm thinking about that big difference between locomotion in water and locomotion in air it just struck me--ANOTHER hit FTL speeds, yes, but while swimming in the ocean. So yes it could be argued that Another is quite possibly simply just a higher LEVEL of FTL than other creatures in the series.

Also I've gone back and forth on translations for Toriko for a while but I find that when it comes to scanlations of the latest chapters within a week or so, the ones hosted on Batoto from Hi Wa Mato Noboru scanlation group are the best. *********** has actually made some big translation errors that they've had to correct a few times since they picked up Toriko, while HWMN has been translating Toriko for way longer and hasn't made such mistakes. Unfortunately, these days ***********'s translations always come out a few days before HWMN's. Mehhhhh.

I'm pretty psyched for the fights with GOD, Joa, and NEO. It's gonna be pretty sweet. ANd I have a feeling we're gonna be getting some crazy feats soon to add on here, and that we'll be finding out once and for all whether the God-Tiers (NEO, Toriko's third Demon presumably, Midora, etc.) are High 5-A or rather actually 4-C :)
 
Moon might be slow, yea...you can change it to "likely" or "possibly" if you want

The others get scaling from the Neo fragments and the fact that they blitzed the Blue Nitro, one of whom could keep up with Bambina to an extent.
 
Alakabamm said:
Moon might be slow, yea...you can change it to "likely" or "possibly" if you want
The others get scaling from the Neo fragments and the fact that they blitzed the Blue Nitro, one of whom could keep up with Bambina to an extent.
Click to expand...
The Blue Nitro are VERY strong, yes, but kind of a joke compared to the true God-Tiers in the series (Eight Kings, Three Disciples of Acacia, and above). I mean, Jirou fought six of them at once and took out I think at least three or four of them, if I remember correctly, while sustaining pretty much no damage himself.

I'm really psyched for the upcoming battles in the series and the possibly-more-definitive feats we may be seeing soon. I (and others) have a strong suspicion that the true God-Tiers (NEO and those on his level) are Star-Level in this series, and it would be nice to have it confirmed for sure that there are some 4-C's in the verse.
 
KuuIchigo said:
Sometimes they mistranslate, but they should be all-round accurate for the most part.
Click to expand...

Still I will never forget when they say Moon is dead.... and the strongest of the eight kings is dead by a piece of Neo demon while bambina in his sealed form just toying with that thing which pretty much kill my hype and the translator is even made a letter to apologize because of the confusion that he has cause and Toriko wikia is until now still close the coment section because of that.
 
Goodyfresh said:
The Blue Nitro are VERY strong, yes, but kind of a joke compared to the true God-Tiers in the series (Eight Kings, Three Disciples of Acacia, and above). I mean, Jirou fought six of them at once and took out I think at least three or four of them, if I remember correctly, while sustaining pretty much no damage himself.

I'm really psyched for the upcoming battles in the series and the possibly-more-definitive feats we may be seeing soon. I (and others) have a strong suspicion that the true God-Tiers (NEO and those on his level) are Star-Level in this series, and it would be nice to have it confirmed for sure that there are some 4-C's in the verse.
Click to expand...
The blue nitro scale to speed at the very least. One landed a blow on True Jirou and the other tangled with Bambina and survived
 
Goodyfresh said:
The Blue Nitro are VERY strong, yes, but kind of a joke compared to the true God-Tiers in the series (Eight Kings, Three Disciples of Acacia, and above). I mean, Jirou fought six of them at once and took out I think at least three or four of them, if I remember correctly, while sustaining pretty much no damage himself.

I'm really psyched for the upcoming battles in the series and the possibly-more-definitive feats we may be seeing soon. I (and others) have a strong suspicion that the true God-Tiers (NEO and those on his level) are Star-Level in this series, and it would be nice to have it confirmed for sure that there are some 4-C's in the verse.
Click to expand...
This is already been discussed several times and the answer is NO!
 
I think he is saying the next battle will have them doing feats on that level. It is certainly a possibility. Neo has not gotten serious yet, Jirou threw out Large Planet level blasts like nothing, and Don Slime said his blast would "easily destroy" earth.
 
Alakabamm said:
I think he is saying the next battle will have them doing feats on that level. It is certainly a possibility. Neo has not gotten serious yet, Jirou threw out Large Planet level blasts like nothing, and Don Slime said his blast would "easily destroy" earth.
Click to expand...
Yes exactly. We can't say for sure that the highest-tiers AREN'T Star-Level, Not Jim Sterling. For one thing, GOD was just revealed to have a Capture Level of 6000, Capture-levels happen to scale EXPONENTIALLY, and a Capture Level of 6000 already puts something firmly into at-least-mid-tier 5-A category. It's not a sure thing that their WILL be confirmation of star-level destructive power in the upcoming fights, but their very well COULD be. And Alakabamm you make good points. It should also be noted that Don Slime mentioned that in his prime, destroying two or three very large (5-A) planets at a time with single punches would be a casual feat. And it seems quite probable that the true full power of Neo is on a higher level than Don Slime was EVER at.

Good lord these upcoming fights will be awesome, haha.

"Still I will never forget when they say Moon is dead.... and the strongest of the eight kings is dead by a piece of Neo demon while bambina in his sealed form just toying with that thing which pretty much kill my hype and the translator is even made a letter to apologize because of the confusion that he has cause and Toriko wikia is until now still close the coment section because of that."

That incident, most of all, is the reason I do not trust ***********'s translations for Toriko very much compared to the ones from Hi Wa Mata Naboru.

"The blue nitro scale to speed at the very least. One landed a blow on True Jirou and the other tangled with Bambina and survived."

--True, so if Jirou and Bambina are FTL then by extension the Blue Nitro should be too, although clearly those levels of speed were more casual for Bambina and Jirou than for the Blue Nitro ("Atom" could clearly only barely keep up for a few seconds with the likes of Bambina). I honestly suspect the Blue Nitro MIGHT just be very high 5-B tier rather than tier 5-A when it comes to destructive-power and all though, considering that they end up looking like such a joke in combat against solid-tier-5A characters like Bambina and Jirou. I mean sure, "Atom" SURVIVED Bambina's attacks, but it was clear that Bambina was completely CURBSTOMPING the jerkwad, haha.


I guess if characters in Toriko ARE FTL, the explanation for the mechanism of it would have to be the Appetite Energy of the Gourmet Cells. Works as well as any other applied-phlebotinum explanation for such powers in a series where the author clearly does still know about real-world scientific laws to SOME extent.
 
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