DC Comics - Spectre Low 1-C AP Proposal

[Oliver_de_jesus]

As you know we currently have the Specter in 2-A when it is used by Hal Jordan AND Asmodel because they both defeated Neron and Asmodel froze all hell by removing the hell fire.

Hell is comparable to heaven in size, both have infinite souls each with their own universe but that's not all.

The angels need to adjusting their size/vibrations to exist inside the book, where Zauriel explains that Heaven is in a higher order of reality than the Mortal Plane, mentioning that everything that exists in Heaven is more than everything that exists in the Mortal Plane.-JLA #6 (1997).

The Book is a reference to the World/Universe/Multiverse, Where hell and heaven are above and below respectively-JLA Paradise Lost #1

Hell is also a non-linear place, without an undefined flow that connects different eras, even the Crisis, its own nature is infinitely complex incapable of being understood by Deadman/human's mind in its entirety, demonstrating a quality of Infinite orders of magnitude greater -Deadman Dead Agin Vol 1 #1 and 4

Asmodel key should be removed, apart from the fact that in the end he was not able to control the Spectre(-Day of Judgment Vol 1 #5) but also his fusion only appears for 5 issues

we can simply say (As a worthy Host, Hal Jordan should be superior to Asmodel with a part of the power of The Spectre, who would Froze Neron, and all of Hell, by removing all hellfire from it, Hell being the reflection of Heaven, both being a higher dimensional realm containing infinite universes as mere aspects of them. Hal by himself casually imprisoned and tortured Neron. When Hal first became the Spectre he considered the power far greater than he ever had as Parallax)

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Something that I found out now, apparently there is the power of Multilocation, so Neron's Night Omnipresence should be changed for that

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @Planck69 @Confluctor @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Alonik @The_Impress

What do you think about this?

 

[KLOL506]

@Confluctor Sorry not sorry LOL

 

[Confluctor]

@Confluctor Sorry not sorry LOL

I shall get my revenge one day

As for OP, I don't mind the upgrade. I always had issues with 2-A peak Spectre (with hosts).

Multiverse level+ (Froze Neron, and all of Hell, by removing all hellfire from it, Hell being the reflection of Heaven, an infinite multiverse. Kyle Rayner said he made Parallax look like a joke)

I mean our file outright states this. How is this even 2-A?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

This upgrade looks fine to me.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I mean our file outright states this. How is this even 2-A?

do you think this is hax or does it need another rating?

 

[KLOL506]

I shall get my revenge one day

Guess I gotta up the R34 dosage on ya then buddy

 

[Confluctor]

do you think this is hax or does it need another rating?

As it stands, Hal's feats we list should scale to low 1-c Neron. I don't see why it needs a new key or hax.

Tho Spectre, in general, has a varied mechanism, so this could be a peak thing. But his 2-A feats for Hal and Asmo are straight up low 1c.

 

[LordTracer]

I agree with the upgrade, although Spectre really needs a proper rework.

 

[Confluctor]

Ye. Tho he has too many issues. Good luck to whoever wants to lol

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Sandman31 is very knowledgeable about The Spectre. It would be good if he shows up here. I might misremember though.

 

[LordTracer]

Isn’t Sandman inactive?

 

[Antvasima]

Not exactly. He just visits quite seldom. His last visit was Thursday this week.

 

[Deagonx]

Hell is comparable to heaven in size, both have infinite souls each with their own universe but that's not all.

I don't think that this should be interpreted as literal universes. In that same comic, it's explained that these are more akin to a state of consciousness rather than actual places.

But besides that, what is the justification for 1-C?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

But besides that, what is the justification for 1-C?

Regardless of that, the other arguments are that heaven and hell perceive the universe/multiverse as simply less real in comparison and mortals cannot comprehend it's infinitely complex nature, where both planes have access to destroyed sections of the mortal plane (Deadman can travel from hell to COIE)

 

[Deagonx]

Regardless of that, the other arguments are that heaven and hell perceive the universe/multiverse as simply less real in comparison and mortals cannot comprehend it's infinitely complex nature, where both planes have access to destroyed sections of the mortal plane (Deadman can travel from hell to COIE)

Okay, so this is the tiering criteria for Low 1-C:

Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)

Your argument is that this perception that the multiverse is "less real" and that mortals cannot comprehend the nature of Heaven constitutes infinite transcendence? That seems unlikely to me given that regular denizens of Heaven and Hell have not, historically, been exceptionally powerful compared to members of the multiverse.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Not all members of a higher dimensional species need to have Ap tier 1 (See Digimon or SMT), there are verses with that, in fact the angels themselves have a mechanic of entering the human realm, as they need to reduce their vibrations to synchronize in the lower Worlds or use flesh bodies

 

[Deagonx]

Okay, but my main question is what is the basis for saying it's infinitely greater?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

well it's all about the interpretation of Reality>Fiction according to Zauriel, time not lineal in Hell and the sheer incomprehensible nature of the realms, anyway, i contact Ultima for comment on this thread as he was the one who told me on discord that this was all fine.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay, I have to say I completely reject the idea that there is an R>F layer between Heaven and Hell. Angels calling it "the book" in a single storyline isn't enough.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

No, when I refer to the book I am not referring to the term Reality-Fiction, I know that it is not enough but what makes me think this is the total context that of all the history that is given and Zauriel's words when he talk about the heaven, not of which existence is a book itself.

 

[Deagonx]

That he calls it a higher order of reality?

 

[LuciferDC099]

I agree with this upgrade.

According to the Multiversity: Guidebook (full) Hell and Heaven are outside of the Wonderworld which is located at the outermost limits of 4-D spacetime. They're also outside of the Bleed which is 5-D Bulk that encompasses all 4-D universes.

OP also has evidence to support Low 1-C Heaven / hell such as this:

The angels need to adjusting their size/vibrations to exist inside the book, where Zauriel explains that Heaven is in a higher order of reality than the Mortal Plane, mentioning that everything that exists in Heaven is more than everything that exists in the Mortal Plane.-JLA #6 (1997).

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who are helping out here.

LDC099 seems to make sense in his latest post. What do you think, Deagonx?

 

[Deagonx]

According to the Multiversity: Guidebook (full) Hell and Heaven are outside of the Wonderworld which is located at the outermost limits of 4-D spacetime. They're also outside of the Bleed which is 5-D Bulk that encompasses all 4-D universes.

Being outside of something isn't the same as transcending it.

I just don't think the phrase "higher order of reality" is enough to warrant this upgrade.

 

[Transcending]

Being outside of something isn't the same as transcending it.

Right, but the Sphere of the Gods encompasses Bleed and hence cannot go lower than 5D.

 

[Deagonx]

Right, but the Sphere of the Gods encompasses Bleed and hence cannot go lower than 5D.

The Sphere isn't a place unto itself. It's a designator for realms "between" the multiverse and Nil. Individual realms in the Sphere don't encompass the Multiverse. They don't have spatial positioning relative to it

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Except it does encompass the local Multiverse and that's shown in the map.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

And in New Gods 10, it's stated all Universes in the Orrery exists in a bubble of new genesis.

 

[Transcending]

And, I think:

1: Referring to the Multiverse as a book

2: Being a higher order of reality; and

3: Having to change your vibrations and change into material flesh

Are enough evidences for a transcendence.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

And, I think:

1: Referring to the Multiverse as a book

2: Being a higher order of reality; and

3: Having to change your vibrations and change into material flesh

Is enough evidences for a transcendence.

Yup

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

it is also said that hell and heaven exist everywhere and beyond in the mortal world but that we cannot see it directly

https://i.imgur.com/gn1rsbu_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/4UrkVBu_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

The vibration thing is also something important, New Genesis and Apocalypse (The real ones) exist as higher vibratory Worlds

 

[Beyond_transcending]

As you know we currently have the Specter in 2-A when it is used by Hal Jordan AND Asmodel because they both defeated Neron and Asmodel froze all hell by removing the hell fire.

Hell is comparable to heaven in size, both have infinite souls each with their own universe but that's not all.

The angels need to adjusting their size/vibrations to exist inside the book, where Zauriel explains that Heaven is in a higher order of reality than the Mortal Plane, mentioning that everything that exists in Heaven is more than everything that exists in the Mortal Plane.-JLA #6 (1997).

The Book is a reference to the World/Universe/Multiverse, Where hell and heaven are above and below respectively-JLA Paradise Lost #1

Hell is also a non-linear place, without an undefined flow that connects different eras, even the Crisis, its own nature is infinitely complex incapable of being understood by Deadman/human's mind in its entirety, demonstrating a quality of Infinite orders of magnitude greater -Deadman Dead Agin Vol 1 #1 and 4

Asmodel key should be removed, apart from the fact that in the end he was not able to control the Spectre(-Day of Judgment Vol 1 #5) but also his fusion only appears for 5 issues

we can simply say (As a worthy Host, Hal Jordan should be superior to Asmodel with a part of the power of The Spectre, who would Froze Neron, and all of Hell, by removing all hellfire from it, Hell being the reflection of Heaven, both being a higher dimensional realm containing infinite universes as mere aspects of them. Hal by himself casually imprisoned and tortured Neron. When Hal first became the Spectre he considered the power far greater than he ever had as Parallax)

Um, they didn't defeat Neron, if I remember correctly. Neron tricked him, and pretended to be frozen, and he was manipulating events from the start. I don't have scan tho and I could be wrong.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Um, they didn't defeat Neron, if I remember correctly. Neron tricked him, and pretended to be frozen, and he was manipulating events from the start. I don't have can tho and I might be wrong.

I mean, Neron was frozen but he broken free later, the things is that Neron need preparation to stand a chance against Asmodel-Spectre, for what occupied the body of Superman while a team was looking for the spear of destiny and when he obtained it he already believed he could obtain The Spectre-Force.

Regardless, Hal-Spectre is already above Neron and could have destroyed him if not for Etrigan's intervention.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

I mean, Neron was frozen but he broken free later, the things is that Neron need preparation to stand a chance against Asmodel-Spectre, for what occupied the body of Superman while a team was looking for the spear of destiny and when he obtained it he already believed he could obtain The Spectre-Force.

Regardless, Hal-Spectre is already above Neron and could have destroyed him if not for Etrigan's intervention.

Ye

 

[Eficiente]

I have doubts.

Hell is comparable to heaven in size, both have infinite souls each with their own universe but that's not all.

Ok, this may not mean anything but you know that.

The angels need to adjusting their size/vibrations to exist inside the book, where Zauriel explains that Heaven is in a higher order of reality than the Mortal Plane, mentioning that everything that exists in Heaven is more than everything that exists in the Mortal Plane.-JLA #6 (1997).

Ok, this may be correct but it can easily not mean anything Low 1-C wise. Those small demons in the flowers in the Mortal Plane are normal-sized in Hell, so that's what their size being bigger may be. That they talk about the Mortal Plane as the book can simply be poetic, given the way they talk and how that's even recognized in that comic twice. The "higher orden of reality" is elaborated right next to when that's said; there is more of everything there in the sense of everything being bigger, more powerful and more devastating, which needless to say any universe can have w/o being Low 1-C or anything close.

The Book is a reference to the World/Universe/Multiverse, Where hell and heaven are above and below respectively-JLA Paradise Lost #1

As said before, it can be poetic, in that same album their poetic way to talk is recognized here, mocked here as the guy who talked about the book was talking, and with MMH making a point calling out his people for their would-be superiority, how they don't see reason and are insane, and all that guy did was talk in the same way he called the Mortal Plane "the book".

Hell is also a non-linear place, without an undefined flow that connects different eras, even the Crisis, its own nature is infinitely complex incapable of being understood by Deadman/human's mind in its entirety, demonstrating a quality of Infinite orders of magnitude greater -Deadman Dead Agin Vol 1 #1 and 4

It has wacky ways of working, and is infinitely complex, but so could a human say that our universe is infinitely complex, it's not like Deadman said that it's infinitely more complex than the universe.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

As said before, it can be poetic, in that same album their poetic way to talk is recognized here

Rather it is a way to make an interpretation easier, of course you can take it as poetic but the words of the writer imply that the presence of both extends throughout the creation

mocked here as the guy who talked about the book was talking,

that's more because they were fighting and because Zauriel was upset due to the betrayal of his former companions, he didn't want to hear more chatter from them

and with MMH making a point calling out his people for their would-be superiority, how they don't see reason and are insane, and all that guy did was talk in the same way he called the Mortal Plane "the book".

MMH says it because of how the situation is getting out of control, since basically if the angels come to earth to cause chaos, obviously you would be upset

 

[Eficiente]

Rather it is a way to make an interpretation easier, of course you can take it as poetic but the words of the writer imply that the presence of both extends throughout the creation

I don't deny that they do, but 1 of the 2 small demons saying "Enough Ghast. You'll never make the ranks of rhyming demons. Your poetry stinks." to the other when he talked just like Neron did, and needing to tell Neron to say his goal in concrete language to be understood shows that they all talk in an imprecise, poetic way.

that's more because they were fighting and because Zauriel was upset due to the betrayal of his former companions, he didn't want to hear more chatter from them

Your take, but it doesn't matter if it's "more" of that when it doesn't remove the fact that he was talking in an absurd way and got taunted for. You can look at some other aspect of what was going on but that fact still stands on its own.

MMH says it because of how the situation is getting out of control, since basically if the angels come to earth to cause chaos, obviously you would be upset

Again, you are looking at this from some other aspect when the fact remains that MMH called out his people for their would-be superiority, imlying they don't have it or overhype it, how they don't see reason, and how they are insane. MMH says it because he's correct, if you want to look at why he said it for other reasons then sure, but that doesn't suddenly mean he wasn't correct and how he listened Neron's nonsense talk before speaking his mind.

You are presenting reasons, and those are correct, and then you ignore what I said, but you're not presenting reasons to ignore what I said.