Soul of Cinder vs Slave Knight Gael

[Wokistan]

You have no feats for that though. Literally 0. You have gameplay only. At best you otherwise have lore implications which is a streeeeeeeeeeeetch because even the DS community as a whole can only make some guesses at it's true nature.

Like I said, the gameplay is canon. It isn't always, but for Dark Souls it is. And we have nothing else to go by.

I know they have the same soul manip but I'm referring to earlier comments that brought it up as somehow relevant. Their soul manipulation isn't relevant in combat at all.

It would make more sense, but on this wiki gameplay feats aren't considered canon if they contradict the lore, The star busting stuff doesn't come up in gameplay, for instance, but a lengthy revision determined a part of the lore indicates that. If boss difficulty was an indicator of tiering, we would end up with stuff like crystal sage at 4C due to being able to fight abyss watchers before them, or really low tier abyss watchers due to being able to 2 shot the entire boss without even being over leveled with parries and a strength weapon.

 

[Rune_Katashima]

Right I forgot this website wanks extremely hard on the power scaling, my bad. I have seen the error of my ways.

 

[Wokistan]

Right I forgot this website wanks extremely hard on the power scaling, my bad. I have seen the error of my ways.

To be fair the gameplay scaling only really gets messed up in DS3 and the DLCs of these games, but so little of the lore is concrete and scaling this way works better for everything else that it probably is for the best how it is in, either the exception of the abyss watchers which I'll probably get around to making a crt for.

 

[Wokistan]

Anyways, with them being roughly the same physically would you like to vote for either for different reasons?

 

[Rune_Katashima]

Yeah I had to go and read his page and laugh at it. This website legitimately believes SoC is Star Level and his speed is relativistic+.

Like what?


Erroneously believes Power Within Drains him when it doesn't.

Frankly as far as I've seen nearly every character on Vs wiki is overwanked.

Based on his profile this is a stomp, Gael doesn't even come close. But I refuse to acknowledge that the information in SoC's profile is accurate.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Soul of Cinder FRA

 

[Bleuburd]

Soul of Cinder for having the better souls and more versatile moveset. SOC has 3 of the lord soul from CU plus all the souls of LOC barring ashen one, while Gael has an incomplete dark soul (although the dark soul gets stronger the more the flame fades). By experience Gael wins because he's actually more ancient than SOC (from the era of dragons to the end of fire), but unlike Gael who has a pretty specific moveset SoC has ALL the movesets of all the previous lords. But anyways this is a close fight.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

bump cuz this is a cool match

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Rune_Katashima]

I'm voting SoC btw

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I'll go with Soul of Cinder fra.

 

[Albereich_Avain_Blackcrown]

Gael, I vote Gael. Gael possesses the dark soul, not only that but he also is at arguably the peak of his power whilst the soul of cinder is crumbling away. Also if we are speaking about this literally, I am pretty sure there are battles where people used a mod to spawn in both bosses in Gael's arena. Both then fought to the death.

 

[Rune_Katashima]

@Albereich I made that argument too and Gael wins that but they won't accept it because "game mechanics"

 

[Albereich_Avain_Blackcrown]

I mean, if you can place both A.I's in one ******* room and Gael basically rapes SoS every time, I think its clear who wins. The only videos I've seen where SoS won was with Human interference, someone literally had to help SoS win.

 

[Wokistan]

I mean, if you can place both A.I's in one ******* room and Gael basically rapes SoS every time, I think its clear who wins. The only videos I've seen where SoS won was with Human interference, someone literally had to help SoS win.

Gael having about 3 times as much health and more damage is chalked up to game mechanics as the DLC bosses generally are intentionally made more difficult than the main game for people who want even more challenge. If that type of thing was accepted, Gundyr would be high 4C, demon prince would be 4B, and Crystal sage would be high 4C. That sort of stuff is why what actually happens in gameplay sometimes must be ignored in favor of what's more consistent or makes sense. While Gael with dark soul is going to be at about his peak, one must take into consideration that the dark soul was originally only a mirror to Gwyn's soul of light. Now, the Soul of cinder contains at least 8 souls comparable, everything from the other two dark souls games, and possibly hundreds more unnamed lords of Cinder. Gael being a mirror to the entire first flame and SOC at this point in terms of power still is a huge power jump from how the dark soul normally would be, and is still impressive in its own right.

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Rune_Katashima]

Careful with what you say Wokistan because people modded the fights to give SoC more health and Gael still won. So don't just say it's stats.

 

[Keeweed]

Careful with what you say Wokistan because people modded the fights to give SoC more health and Gael still won. So don't just say it's stats.

But that has to do with boss A.I And gameplay mechanics; it doesn't take into consideration of the SoC massive skill and experience advantage, and he doesn't use his moves as effectively as he should

 

[Rune_Katashima]

I only told Wokistan to be careful what he says. Don't infer more than that. But nevermind you usually do anyway.

 

[Keeweed]

I only told Wokistan to be careful what he says. Don't infer more than that. But nevermind you usually do anyway.

But why bring it up if it's irrelevant?

 

[Rune_Katashima]

...I can't talk to you anymore man.

 

[Wokistan]

Remember that Boss AI is for fighting players. I know what videos you're talking about, and what you can notice is how both bosses will just straight up facetank each other since they obviously aren't programmed to react to other bosses. Gael's pretty obviously harder and stronger in gameplay, SOC seemed kinda week compared to others earlier in the game, but this can be chalked up to gameplay and story segregation. Regardless of what the ingame stats say, Gael doesn't stomp SOC. If ingame stats were used we'd have high 4C corpse because hollows can kill you in a few hits especially on higher NG cycles.

 

[Rune_Katashima]

Why would you consider higher NG cycles canon?

The basic undead killing you takes several hits but Vestiges might do 90%-100% of your HP. Idk if taking several hits equates basic undead to Vestiges one shotting you. Perhaps CU durability is calc'd too high.

 

[Wokistan]

Normal undead even doing damage to you means they're in that range, or at least regular 4C. How exactly are you being 1 shot by CBV?

 

[Rune_Katashima]

Nope, attrition is a thing. Same reason a lightweight fighter can take out a heavyweight fighter IRL. It's unlikely to happen, but it can. But your argument seems to be that CU's durability is too high, so maybe we should look at that as well.

 

[Keeweed]

His durability isn't to high; random fodder enemies doing damage to you is a gameplay mechanic to make the game entertaining; Goomba don't scale to Mario and neither do naked undead to the ashen one, also CBV increases in power with the Ashen One's souls so they scale to 4-C

 

[Wokistan]

Lightweight fighters and heavyweight fighters would still be in the same "tier", so to speak, of 10A to maybe lower end 9C. The gap between a 4C and a corpse is obviously much more than the gap between a heavyweight boxer and lightweight boxer. Even though with the assumption that the Ashen one doesn't pull a no death run technically making most of their victories due to their regen and them becoming battles of attrition, they still need to be around the same level to even apply any kind of appreciable damage to it. Backwards scaling like that causes issues, to the point where if it was used in marvel you can literally have normal people at 1A, so stuff like scaling every fodder enemy just because it can damage you is a no.

 

[Rune_Katashima]

You need to stop thinking in tiers and simply understand the analogy I was making.

I would need to see a backwards scaling that makes sense that also causes issue because it's not realistically believable to agree with you. I agree with the *theory* of what you are saying but I have yet to see it become an issue so I'd need to see some actual problems to say that CU cannot be scaled off weak enemies as well.

 

[Keeweed]

^ he cannot he scale off weaker enemies because they're weaker and have no feats; they don't scale to the Chosen Undead and he doesn't scale to them. They scale to their own feats due to being fodder enemies that are just there to make the game fun (at best the silver knights scale to the dragons, but that's debatable and doesn't matter)