Soul of Cinder vs Slave Knight Gael

[Wokistan]

Normal DS3 final boss vs DLC version

Both at their at least High 4C, possibly 4B

Speed unequalized for now

Start at 150 meters

Who wins and why?

Soul of Cinder-3 (Keeweed,Iapatus,Bleuburd,Rune Katashima)

Slave Knight Gael-1 (Dzhindzholia)

Inconclusive-

 

[Keeweed]

Soul of Cinder is probably far stronger; and if he isn't he still has a massive intelligence, experience, skill, and versatility advantage.

 

[Wokistan]

IIRC Gael gets his scaling from an endgame ashen one, who within the context of this wiki defeats the soul of cinder at the same power level, so the strength gap shouldn't be too much of a factor. The other reasons however shall be accepted, if this is intended as a vote.

 

[Keeweed]

Yeah it's a vote

 

[Fr0zenBolT]

Hard Choice.

Soul of Cinder is strong...like really strong. But I think that Gael would beat it with the Dark Soul.

In my opinion Gael's unique combat style, paired with his Soul Manipulation and the ability to cover a huge area with attacks being able to leap wide distances gives him the edge.

I vote Gael

 

[Wokistan]

Soul of Cinder also has soul manipulation on its profile, and is composed of minimum 7 different souls, each of which is 4C, so any reason to believe Gael's soul manipulation is better?

 

[Wokistan]

I'm not arguing for either one btw, id just like some clarification on your reasoning.

 

[Fr0zenBolT]

I didn't mean that his was better but his way of using it is vastly different than SoC's. And since Gael collected almost every human soul aka. dark souls fragment, I would guess that his is more or less equal to SoC's

 

[Keeweed]

I didn't mean that his was better but his way of using it is vastly different than SoC's. And since Gael collected almost every human soul aka. dark souls fragment, I would guess that his is more or less equal to SoC's

No it's literally the same soul manipulation; kill something and get its souls; also Gael is before the SoC in canon due to the SoC instantly ending the game. So the Ashen had his soul plus everything else in dark souls 3 yet still died multiple times to the SoC. Also Gwyn while hallowed liked to jump across the entire arena (not as much as Gael but he still does it meaning Gael's fight style isn't even unique to the SoC (and even if it was the SoC still has a massive intelligence, skill, experience, and versatility advantage). (I like Gael alot but he gets slaughtered in this fight).

 

[Wokistan]

No it's literally the same soul manipulation; kill something and get its souls; also Gael is before the SoC in canon due to the SoC instantly ending the game. So the Ashen had his soul plus everything else in dark souls 3 yet still died multiple times to the SoC. Also Gwyn while hallowed liked to jump across the entire arena (not as much as Gael but he still does it meaning Gael's fight style isn't even unique to the SoC (and even if it was the SoC still has a massive intelligence, skill, experience, and versatility advantage). (I like Gael alot but he gets slaughtered in this fight).

SOC doesn't instantly end the game when killed, you've gotta manually trigger that after killing him. You may be thinking of Gwyn and Nashandra where you couldn't leave without triggering an ending. Also, the place you fight Gael at is supposed to be taking place far after the rise and fall of a multitude of kingdoms, which could possibly place the time of fighting Gael way later than SOC. With the way time works in this series, it could go either way as to which is fought last. Also, where does the assumption that the player character dies several times to the SOC come from? I personally ended up beating him first time, which I realize is anecdotal, but I cant find any basis in lore or anything that SOC kills the ashen one several times before losing the battle of attrition to the functionally immortal protag. That part's not really that important, id just like to know where it comes from. About Gael's fighting style, you would be correct in stating that his fighting style isn't unique to the SOC, especially with its experience including basically everything in ds1 and 2. Considering their similar levels of raw power and their soul manip being the same, unless Frozen can come up with another argument for Gael beyond his fighting style that's not going to be accepted as a vote for him.

 

[Keeweed]

^ the assumption comes from two things. 1) we cannot assume the protagonist breezes through the game with zero difficulty, especially with the soul of cinder who was said to be the Ashen One's greatest challenge (he needed a massive power boast even to get close to its level). 2) a composite Ashen One would have died multiple times on most end game bosses, due to that being the main plot point of the series is that the protagonist try over and over again until they finally win. Also the ashen one's story is about defeating the SoC so saying he fought Gael afterwards doesn't make much sense (why would the Ashen one kill the SoC look at the first flame then say "I can light it later" it goes completely against the plot).

 

[Wokistan]

Gael being later makes sense with the Yuria ending, but I see why its generally assumed to not be after SOC. Both should be not too far off in power, but SOC's still got the other stuff you've stated.

 

[Wokistan]

Soul of Cinder is probably far stronger; and if he isn't he still has a massive intelligence, experience, skill, and versatility advantage.

Actually, I believe I may have found an issue with using versatility and experience to give SOC the win. Sans the dark wood grain ring backflips, the Ashen one can do literally everything the SOC can do, and if the player was so inclined they could combine it all into a rather unwieldy (or very overleveled) build. Considering that the matches using characters like this tend to give them all their stuff as long as it's within the same tier and the DWGR iframes are game mechanics anyways, that means that when assuming that the Ashen one doesn't canonically complete a no death run, Gael kills someone with the same versatility of the SOC several times, and we've already gone over how SOC should be able to hwndle gael's style, meaning versatility probablyr shouldn't be used as reasobire for either character. As for experience, while SOC's is massive by way of having two player characters alone, to say nothing of the other possible Lord's, Gael, unlike the ashen one, got to the end of time simply for existing that long and due to having the purest and most complete form of the dark souls since before the furitive pygmy split itself up means that he would have had to have overcome and killed event single creature with any trace or humanity, except your own. Skill seems difficult to quantify, but the other reasoning should still stand. Do you wish to challenge my interpretation of this or add anytbuan to your vote to make it more decisive?

 

[Keeweed]

^ The SoC is the combination of everything in dark soul 1 and 2 (the protagonist absorbed everything else souls when they killed them and the SoC is everything they killed (plus it has Gwyn's souls and every lord afterwards meaning it's been around from the beginning of time to dark souls 3 but times a thousand due to also being the soliders that helped those lords and the lords enemies). The SoC is literally thousands of times more experienced. Plus while Gael has delt with someone as versatility, he still doesn't have the versatility. Also no Gael is no where close to being as skilled or intelligent, the SoC is literally an entire legion that destroyed multiple kingdoms (Abyss watchers) and is Seeth the scaleless plus hundreds of other magic users and warriors,

 

[Wokistan]

I wasn't saying gsel was more versatile, but that they should be able to both deal with each other's versatility. If it's scaling in non physical stats does work like you described, then yeah it should still have the edge in the other 3 unless anyone else feels like disproving that.

 

[Wokistan]

This basically means SOC is basically star-solar system levrl combined/composite human doesn't it, except with other things too

 

[Keeweed]

This basically means SOC is basically star-solar system levrl combined/composite human doesn't it, except with other things too

I'm surprised no one else has noticed until now to be perfectly honest (or atleast no one that likes to spam the CH atleast).

 

[Wokistan]

This basically means SOC is basically star-solar system levrl combined/composite human doesn't it, except with other things too

I'm surprised no one else has noticed until now to be perfectly honest (or atleast no one that likes to spam the CH atleast).

Doesn't that also work for Ashen one and basically anyone in this series that's not like some monster lol

 

[Wokistan]

I find yhe lack of dark souls battles on this site in general kinda weird considering how well known the series is

 

[Keeweed]

I find yhe lack of dark souls battles on this site in general kinda weird considering how well known the series is

I never understood before the upgrades, but the upgrades are a little messy (I can't change mistakes I've made because people think the mistakes are the correct thing) so I think that's why no one really is using them right now (plus a lot of people really don't understand some of the characters (Nito apparently won't use death manipulation instantly despite spamming it in his boss fight and instantly using it on a tree in the cutscenes) stuff like that).

 

[Wokistan]

I find yhe lack of dark souls battles on this site in general kinda weird considering how well known the series is

I never understood before the upgrades, but the upgrades are a little messy (I can't change mistakes I've made because people think the mistakes are the correct thing) so I think that's why no one really is using them right now (plus a lot of people really don't understand some of the characters (Nito apparently won't use death manipulation instantly despite spamming it in his boss fight and instantly using it on a tree in the cutscenes) stuff like that).

There's also weird things with boss order, like how you can fight the 4C abyss watchers(which I kinda disagree with but that's neither here nor there) before bosses like the crystal sage and deacons (though deacons did beay Aldrich, 4C deacons confirmed) which confuses people with power scaling and a lot of things like the difficulty of the fights and games as a whole being game mechanics lest we end up with 4C majula pigs or decomposing corpse meaning that it's hard to determine what can be considered Canon or not that probably puts peoolp off it

 

[Keeweed]

^ i would say the scaling is the least weirdest thing really (only in dark souls 3 is it really messy) also there are three reasons why the basic corpse enemies either don't matter or do scale 1) they are basic game enemies 2) in dark souls 2 most there weapon have darkness or something else on them 3) everything in dark souls is powered by souls so the basic hallows could just have lost of souls (the amount of souls you get from basic enemies usually rises throughout the game). I just think the series upgrades need to get completeled then we will get some good matches

 

[Wokistan]

DLCs seem to be the weirdest in terms of scaling, like how fume knight was low 7C for a while since they're usually done last in non challenge runs but that's apaprently not how it works story story wise, but I feel like I've kinda derailed my own thread at this point. Im also hopeful for interesting matches with dark souls characters when the verse gets cleaned up though

 

[Keeweed]

^ I cannot wait either, but you didn't really derail that much, only one other person voted, so it's not like it got in the way of anything.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

I think Gael takes this due to the power of Dark Soul.SoC is vulnerable to lighting,dark and sorceries.Gael's random lighting in his second stage,the power of dark soul,his agressive and fast fighting style can help him.

 

[Keeweed]

I think Gael takes this due to the power of Dark Soul.SoC is vulnerable to lighting,dark and sorceries.Gael's random lighting in his second stage,the power of dark soul,his agressive and fast fighting style can help him.

^ sorceries is not one of its weaknesses (that was a mistake that was for some reason never fixed) and the power of the dark soul is far below the SoC because while it did grow in power since dark souls 1 it's nowhere near comparable to Everything in dark souls 1+ everything in dark souls 2+ thousands more+ every lord ever (which there is possibly hundreds of).

 

[Wokistan]

Using Gael scaling off Ashen one makes him stronger than just using the argument of the dark souls itselfs feats, and I feel like the lightning weakness is probably just game mechanics considered it kinda contradicts solaire and gwyn's abilities. The dark soul, untill the specific fight with the ashen one, is more of a mirror to gwyn's Lord soul than the first flame itself. We've established that they should be roughly at the same power level , so other charactetisticc would be required for a valid vote for gael.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

Sorceries is one of its weakness,absolutly everything in the Dark Souls is valnurable to darkness,even SoC.My point and my vote still remains.(I am knowladgable in Dark Souls verse).

 

[Keeweed]

^ http://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Soul+of+Cinder he's weak to frost not sorceries that was a mistake that never got fixed (actually I should fix it now). Also how does Gael get past the SoC's skill, intelligence experience advantage (and no Gael's aggressive fight style isn't helping for tons of reason: the SoC can parry the ashen one but the ashen one can't parry him so he could just parry Gael, he's literally just as aggressive (that five hit combo that rag dolls the ashen one says hi), he can change his weapon on the fly, he has multiple was to heal himself, and he could just learn Gael's fighting style through the fight then counter it (he knows both Artorias' and the Abyss Watchers' fight styles meaning that learning Gael's fighting style shouldn't be that hard for it).

 

[Wokistan]

Sorceries is one of its weakness,absolutly everything in the Dark Souls is valnurable to darkness,even SoC.My point and my vote still remains.(I am knowladgable in Dark Souls verse).

Off the top of my head, midir is so absurdly resistant to darkness that it was legitimately easier to kill him sl1 than with a dark build, and nashandra and vendric were rather resistant to dark as well. SOC is weak to it, but it's hardly a crippling weakness gsmeplay wise, and for dark souls there seems to be a greater focus on lore for powers and abilities than the fights themselves meaning that dark weakness as a definite reason is of dubious applicability (though it would make sense in context).

 

[Wokistan]

Do any of gael's attacks even count as sorcery either way?

 

[Wokistan]

I'll tentatively add the vote for gael, but it would be nice if that could be clarified or reinforced.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

Midir is resistant to darkness only cause is already corrupted with darkness,he even uses dark based attacks.

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Wokistan]

bump

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Rune_Katashima]

Just because you have soul manipulation doesn't mean you can do ANY kind of soul manipulation.

I wanted to say Soul of Cinder wins but I'm going with Gael here. The games stats are actually canon and fights (with many rounds to be sure) using "hacks" to get them to fight always result in having to give SoC 2x health pools to remain competitve. Their in game depictions are canon, so if they fight each other even using hacks to get it done, I consider it the reality of the situation.

 

[Wokistan]

Just because you have soul manipulation doesn't mean you can do ANY kind of soul manipulation.

I wanted to say Soul of Cinder wins but I'm going with Gael here. The games stats are actually canon and fights (with many rounds to be sure) using "hacks" to get them to fight always result in having to give SoC 2x health pools to remain competitve. Their in game depictions are canon, so if they fight each other even using hacks to get it done, I consider it the reality of the situation.

Both have the same soul manip, but I'm pretty sure in the context of this wiki stuff like Gael dealing way more damage and having way more health is chalked up to him being specifically designed to be harder than the rest of the bosses sans midir, and as such is considered game mechanics. This site, with regards to video games, seems to prefer power through cutscene feats and scaling more than stuff like that.

 

[Rune_Katashima]

You have no feats for that though. Literally 0. You have gameplay only. At best you otherwise have lore implications which is a streeeeeeeeeeeetch because even the DS community as a whole can only make some guesses at it's true nature.

Like I said, the gameplay is canon. It isn't always, but for Dark Souls it is. And we have nothing else to go by.

I know they have the same soul manip but I'm referring to earlier comments that brought it up as somehow relevant. Their soul manipulation isn't relevant in combat at all.