Soul Manipulation Immunity / Immunity to Soul Destruction for Fiamma (and/or clarifying his resistance)

[DontTalkDT]

No soul as in no lifeforce i the human body equals death. Extraction is the same as not having one.

Wrong. Just because it means death it isn't the same as not having one. That's were you are logically wrong, they aren't equivalent.

In some verses like you said not having a soul in the body is survivable

And considering that we are trying to treat Fiamma surviving without soul in his body as surviving this would be one of them. In Madoka you also don't survive without soul unless supernatural agencies are used to make let you survive.

If you wish to change wiki standard so that any character surviving a lethal soul sucking attack can survive soul destruction feel free to attempt that. As it stands this reasoning isn't accepted.

 

[StrongClick]

Wrong. Just because it means death it isn't the same as not having one. That's were you are logically wrong, they aren't equivalent.

And considering that we are trying to treat Fiamma surviving without soul in his body as surviving this would be one of them. In Madoka you also don't survive without soul unless supernatural agencies are used to make let you survive.

If you wish to change wiki standard so that any character surviving a lethal soul sucking attack can survive soul destruction feel free to attempt that. As it stands this reasoning isn't accepted.

Wym, both mean you don't have one in your body. As far as Index, the method is different but the end result is the same.

No, Humans can't live without souls in their bodies. Fiamma only lives because he has a power that's allows him to survive. Then that's how it works in Madoka.

Not my argument, the standard is fine like above I'm saying the status of his soul doesn't effect his well being thanks to his power given the evidence. Soul extract was just the main example but we also have corruption, and most importantly destruction from shattering by abusing grimore knowledge. Like said above, we have verses where soul destruction, steal etc don't kill the characters but they don't get soul immunity either on profiles because their souls can be haxed. Sam, Dean, Bobby, Lily...etc for example.

 

[Malox1696]

well, human don't die if their soul is just removed in index tho Stronglink, they body just falls unconscious, we do have example as such, angel fall swapped soul but they are all alive, corozon body is fine after soul removal, lilith body was created alive and soulless completely with stem cell, and then they added her soul

but her it does no matter much as fiamma HR by nature is related to his soul and so can be activated even when his soul is out of his body

@don'talk, it's not immunity is simply the nature of the ability, and then HR gives resistances to soul manipulation

 

[StrongClick]

Himegami died instantly from being soulless, angel fall swapped the bodies souls like musical chairs, it didn't make a person's soulless by removing them from the bodies. Coronzon isn't human. Lilith's case isn't wholly relevant, but her essence is higher rank from a normal soul and is capable of miracles and basically possessed a physical container.

 

[Malox1696]

cause himegami was killed, that was death manipulation not soul specifically, corozon body is fully human, same for lillith, and for angel fall they swapped so they did get momentarily removed and relocated to somewhere else

the bodies were not dead, in index soul removal =/= soul death

 

[StrongClick]

It explicitly says himegami died as if her soul left her body. Coronzon isn't a human with a human soul irrelevant to original point. Lilith essence was put into a flesh container, not relevant to the point either. Angel Fall is a distortion that instantly swapped all souls and not just that, reality was bended to accommodate the alterations. Also not really relevant.

 

[ZERO7772]

I agree with @StrongClick here.

 

[Malox1696]

dude the argument is a non sequitur with izzzard, he used death manipulation to kill her, and so her soul left her body, he didn't say "remove the soul from her body" he just said "die", once u die ur soul goes away

and no lillith body is literally a human body lacking soul , its alive , same for corozon body, it is a human body, when she was removed by accelerator, by ur logic that body should have died but surprise aleister and corozon go back in after nt 22 and the body is alive and well

""That is why you control the telomeres to prevent that cancerization process. To do that, you only need to cultivate a type of enzyme that reacts to the repeated sequence TTAGGG and, once you have enough of it, inject it into sample cells you want to multiply. …Was that too complicated? To put it more simply, you just have to return the abnormal cells to normal. Using that method, you can produce any part of the body inside a glass tube. And then there is no need to dirty your hands by killing another baby to save this one."
There was a precedent for this in Academy City. And Mina Mathers would have come into contact with it while managing data in the Windowless Building.
Kumokawa Seria.

She worked as the brain of Kaizumi, an old man on the Academy City Board of Directors. She had lost an eye during Tsuchimikado Motoharu's quest for revenge, but she had repaired the body part using one of the spare parts she had preserved elsewhere.
"This isn't worthy of so much surprise. Telomerase enzyme injection experiments have reached the point that they can suppress aging to a certain extent. Even with the normal technology outside the city. So should it really surprise you that an Academy City doctor can accomplish a bit more than that?" "


BTW: for the angel fall example again ur argument does not hold as while it could have changed reality to keep the bodies alive when it was activated, when the spell was destroyed there would be no such protection , and that only IF it kept the bodies alive as u said

 

[StrongClick]

Missing the point, narration compares her death to what would happen if her soul left her body.

Lilith body is just a grown flesh container, its non sentient, until the essence was put into. As opposed to killing a child and putting Lilith in that like your quote says. I don't see the relevance to the point. Again, coronzon isn't human it's a flesh body she possesses created through supernatural means. Also irrelevant to the point so I'll stop addressing it.

 

[Malox1696]

it's not irrelevant, both bodies are alive call it flesh container or whatever they still breath etc, they are just like in coma, offline

and again narration does not compare it as = but as an example

"—Die."
In that moment, his words made time stop.
Stabbed to death. Strangled to death. Poisoned to death. Shot to death, sliced to death, bashed to death, publicly executed, crucified, incinerated, suffocated, crushed, run over, frozen, drowned, bombed. He compared it to every single way of killing he knew, and yet it didn't give him any insight as to the cause of Himegami's death.
There were no wounds. There was no blood loss. There clearly wasn't sickness.
She just died.
It was just like her batteries had run out. If such a thing as a soul really existed, it was like it had been removed from her body, leaving an empty shell.
She didn't even scream.
Her body swayed heavily. It leaned backward, faceup—as if to show Kamijou her face— and she started to fall. Slowly. Slowly. Himegami's face began to come into sight.


are u gonna say since the narration mentioned batteries running out that she was actually a cyborg with battery and izzard made them discharge ?

and for corozon it was never mentioned that her body died when her soul was removed, it only mentions collapse

A dull sound reverberated across the large temple made from the Queen Britannia's heliport.
Below the blue sky, Great Demon Coronzon limply collapsed. The sound was her forehead hitting the floor.
And.
"…"
Another figure trembled while looking down at her hands.
This other Great Demon Coronzon could only watch as her physical body collapsed in front of her.

even for fimma the pope never mentioned the body death

An explosion resounded through the structure.
A restraining spell created a thirteen-sided object around Fiamma, not only restraining Fiamma's actions physically but also separating his flesh from his soul. He was trapped in a "woundless bind"; nothing more than a hollow existence.

 

[Schnee_One]

It's not immunity, it's resistance

Agreed with the OP

 

[StrongClick]

It's a comparison malox. When batteries die it ceases function. When your soul is gone you die. Soul and lifeforce is used interchangeably through out the volume.


Die as in the body (container) is an empty shell that no longer functions. If that helps you visualize it.

 

[Malox1696]

but that not true if inserted a soul in such container it will work again, the body is not dead like with himgami as it was death manipulation

and while u are right that life force is important soul removal does not destroy it just removes it, u can put it back and be ok like it was with fiamma ,lillith ,aleister and corozon

 

[StrongClick]

If the bodies functionality itself hasn't died I don't see why not. Otherwise I agree. After all the human soul is stated to be the source of lifeforce. So adding a soul to a container will add the lifeforce to said body. Because of that, if a soul were added to himegami her body would live again after death manipulation.

To clarify above, I'm not addressing those who can exist in an exposed state like coronzon, lilith, Aiwass... etc

 

[Malox1696]

strongclick i think we are misunderstanding each other so will write some point and tell which u disagree and why :

1) in index soul removal is not permanent death, the body just goes offline and will die if left alone (starvation etc), if a soul is put back the body come online again

2)fiamma HR has soul resistance, but he himself has nothing of the sort

3)fiamma HR is related to his soul, so he can activate it even when his soul it's outside his body

 

[XDragnoir]

Point 3 doesn't make sense, if HR was related to his soul, then he should be unable to do anything without his soul, HR is completely unrelated to his soul (or maybe a second soul, but this would be speculation).

 

[StrongClick]

Yea Malox I agree with your point 1 and point 2. Idk about point 3 though. Attributes and characteristics that give u powers like sainthood, divine mother... etc seem to be their own thing.

 

[Malox1696]

@xdragonir

No that's the whole point, if HR was related to his body he would not be able to use it when he doesn't have his body, but he did use it instead

@strongclik

u are confusing saints with god right seat

saint have their body similar to god and have stigma on their body, god right seat member literally tried to remove the original sin from their soul

another little hint is terra and High priest have a very similar spell, but we know that is not the body that give HP said spell

 

[XDragnoir]

But when he was sealed, the one who used HR was his body, not his soul.

 

[StrongClick]

fiamma was born with the HR, has nothing to do with original sin which I think in of itself is it's own thing.

 

[Malox1696]

@xdragonir nope it was never mentioned that it was his body, we know his body and soul were separated so probably it was his soul speaking and moving during the sealing spell

@strong link

while u are right that he was born with HR that does not remove the fact that it's related to his soul has diluting the original sin gave it more power, or that he was already born with diluted original sin

we know he has diluted it as he can't cast normal spell

 

[StrongClick]

@Malox Hes born with that power it didn't come from purification, it's compared to how humans are born with the ability to walk. GRS and sin purification gave him Micheals attributes/affinity which strengths the HR, but original sin is never explicitly stated to be related to the soul, it's it's own concept based on the tree of knowledge. Knowledge being the capacity to use human magic, by erasing said knowledge you gain angelic/god knowledge capacity.

 

[XDragnoir]

If it wasn't mentioned to be his soul, then pronably it was his body talking, and iirc, in the anime version his body was the one talking.

 

[XDragnoir]

If it wasn't mentioned to be his soul, then pronably it was his body talking, and iirc, in the anime version his body was the one talking.

 

[Malox1696]

Well without soul the body can't act, that's why i think it's the soul that activated it

but generally speaking for the sake of the OP argument, it's still not immunity is just by nature of the ability it can be activated even if soul is separated AND then HR gives resistance to soul manipulation, it's not immunity

 

[StrongClick]

Yea I think we all agree this can't be an immunity.

 

[Malox1696]

Ok done close it then@donttalk

Fiamma has resistance with HR and is able to use hr even when he is separated by his body