Soul Manipulation Immunity / Immunity to Soul Destruction for Fiamma (and/or clarifying his resistance)

[DontTalkDT]

Since people claimed it in a recent vs-thread I will make a CRT on this now.

The following is the quote relevant for the matter:

An explosion resounded through the structure. A restraining spell created a thirteen-sided object around Fiamma, not only restraining Fiamma's actions physically but also separating his flesh from his soul. He was trapped in a "woundless bind"; nothing more than a hollow existence. "After Judas' betrayal, he hung himself due to the immense guilt he felt. His feelings were the darkest, coldest, deepest, and most painful ever felt; no matter where he looked, he could see no sign of hope. Remember this is what you're going to experience forever." Fiamma could hear nothing, but the Pope's mouth was still moving. "From this moment forth, you shall be bound for forty years. Sample the 'loneliness created by oneself' that Judas experienced, and correct that immature soul of yours." Inside the thirteen-sided object, standing in stupor, Fiamma's lips give a slight twitch. The sign of final resistance he was making with all his strength. "Give up. I am the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church. The power I wield now is the Holy power of two billion followers passed down through two thousand years of history. It is not something that can be destroyed by just one person." In addition to this, the Basilica di San Pietro was the largest and highest stronghold of the old power. Combined with the power of the Vatican, these things could be said to be powerful spiritual items that could increase the Pope's strength. At that moment Fiamma's voice was heard, "Hmph." The Pope expression twisted into one of shock. This was not something someone who had been bound by such a spell should be capable of. Fiamma's voice adopted a light tone, "How pitiful... just two billion followers? Only two thousand years of history?" The world disappeared. The Pope barely managed to see the thing which appeared on Fiamma's right shoulder, alongside a bright light from his eyes, because the very next moment his vision was engulfed by empty whiteness and a violent storm destroyed his surroundings. Like an unstoppable tornado the storm exploded outwards, destroying one-third of St. Peter's Basilica from the inside-out.

TL;DR The Pope uses a spell on Fiamma that is supposed to separate his soul from his flesh, but right after the spell is activated Fiamma just casually continues doing as he was and retaliates.

Now, this being resistance to soul manipulation isn't the question.

Immunity is the question or more specifically whether he would survive if his soul is erased. The argument is that because Fiamma could take action while his soul supposedly was separated from his flesh he should be unaffected by having his soul completely erased.

Personally I think this is wrong for the obvious reason that this feat indicates absolutely nothing on what happens if his soul is destroyed. It's basic soul stealing resistance.

My proposal is that we should specify on the profile, that Fiamma's soul resistance is against soul removal and soul sealing specifically.

Opinions?

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Yes, it's wrong.

We have a verse which entire gigs is basically having their soul separated from their body. And we only give them an Unconventional soul manip resistance.

 

[GLHF22]

Yeah, its too vague for saying he have no soul.

 

[EMS-TC02_Phantom]

>Since people claimed it in a recent vs-thread I will make a CRT on this now.

Assuming the thread in question is this

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3822226

Skimming through it real quick, no one seem to claim anything about soul immunity. In fact, you were the first guy to brought it up in the first place when no one really did? Some of the guy arguing against you even blatantly said that the feat in particular isn't soul immunity

Main argument regarding the soul feat they were going for was that the state of this Fiamma guy's soul doesn't really affect the general well being of the guy himself. The fact that his soul got ripped away from him already disprove his soul having any sort of immunity considering it got affected by shit in the first place. The real kicker here is that his soul getting ****** over seemingly doesn't hold that much consequences on him, which simply mean that spiritual based stuff is less effective against him, which was what they were arguing for and something that's apparently already present on his page too

So like what's the point of the thread anyway? Seems pretty redundant to me. Just put some additional explanation on his soul resistance, which is already there anyway, and that'll solve things

 

[DontTalkDT]

If he can life with his soul destroyed that is what we usually give out soul immunity for as far as I'm aware.

And that is what was claimed.

It isn't redundant, because this is a clarification for an ability that gets evidently misinterpreted.

All present on his page is a unspecified resistance to soul manipulation. Let's make it a specified one then.

Edit: But fine, let me reword the op.

 

[StrongClick]

You're the only one on the thread that mentioned immunity though.

 

[Jvando]

Yeah this doesn't look like immunity to me

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

And that is what was claimed.

Claimed by who? By you? yes

 

[DontTalkDT]

For the reason I mentioned, but fine I have edited the op.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah this doesn't look like immunity to me

Does it look to you like he would survive his soul getting erased?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

it looks to me like he can function with his soul seperated from his body, it seems like this resistance would do nothing if someone were to destroy his soul

 

[Jvando]

I don't think so, at least not from what is shown. It just seems to me that he overpowered the spell so him having resistance to soul removal and sealing is fine

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

it looks to me like he can function with his soul seperated from his body, it seems like this resistance would do nothing if someone were to destroy his soul

No. Soul being seperate and destroyed are two different things. Unless, there is a proof that says otherwise, destroying his soul should kill him assuming his body is still connected (in a sense) to his soul despite being in different places.

This is basically the same case as Magical Girl in Puella Magi series.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

....Ive edited my comment for clarity. to be clear I agree, having your soul ripped out and continuing to function does not allow one to survive having their soul destroyed.

 

[Der_Wehrwolf]

Immunity? lol

Anyways the argument like people said above he can still be soul haxed, it's just that the status of the soul doesnt matter very much. For example that resistence comes from from soul ripping of the pope spell and also the soul shattering, contamination, and other ill effects from grimore orginals which dont bother fiamma.

"The originals were not just incomprehensible but also shattered the reader's soul with their toxic knowledge, so he converted them into a simpler form that anyone could read."

Its just a verse thing, for example in supernatural regular people can have their souls erased by tier 2's and can still be alive.

 

[Accelerate420]

I dunno why this CRT was made since no one ever argued immunity. If you want to make a Soul CRT, rename it to Resistance.

 

[DontTalkDT]

It was argued that he is immune to soul destruction (in the sense we use the term immune), which is exactly what this thread already specifies.

 

[Accelerate420]

Who argued this exactly? His soul was still affected by the spell but he shrugged the spell off, meaning it's not immunity but just resistance considering he still could operate himself.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Who argued this exactly? His soul was still affected by the spell but he shrugged the spell off, meaning it's not immunity but just resistance considering he still could operate himself.

We give immunity to soul manipulation to beings that have no soul. Of course these beings aren't immune in "their soul can't be modified", but just the they experience no effect of any such techniques.

Being immune to a technique in our terms means to experience no ill effects of the technique, which is exactly what was argued.

Please stop trying to argue semantics.

Those that already disagreed with the immunity thing made clear that they mean that it doesn't indicated surviving a soul destruction technique above whatever resistance he might have otherwise.

 

[Accelerate420]

Huh? I said it's not an immunity though? I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue here. It's a resistance. No one here agrees with immunity dude.

 

[Der_Wehrwolf]

Disagree with immunity as well like the rest.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Huh? I said it's not an immunity though? I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue here. It's a resistance. No one here agrees with immunity dude.

You argued he survives being hit by a soul destruction technique in the quintillions of souls based on this stuff. Like what, are you saying that soul destruction in the sextillions kills him, but in the quintillions doesn't?

Like the op specifically states "or more specifically whether he would survive if his soul is erased." which is exactly what was argued in this thread and what to this point people disagreed with.

 

[Accelerate420]

The argument was more like actions against his soul is non-detrimental to him but that doesn't mean he's immune. Yeah, normally that'd be a lot for someone with no resistance, but quintillions against a resistance to attacks of the Soul might not be as potent as you think it is, especially with stats that are fairly equal.

 

[DontTalkDT]

a) As said that means immune in our standard formulations.

b) The op specifies that it is about that.

c) Hahahah, no. Soul erasure in the quintillions compares to resisting that spell, like the sun compares to a candle. Not to mention that D ignores skills that are supposed to make immune to soul manipulation, while a power nullification field attempts to negate her power. That's off-topic to the thread, though.

 

[Der_Wehrwolf]

Like above, obviosuly he can't be immune if his soul can be manipulated. Its just that soul manipulation doesnt mean as much. Like my example with SPN, regular people can get hit by tier 2 soul hax and destruction and not die yet we dont give the entire verse immunity as their souls are clearly being affected.

my 2 cents, nite

 

[DontTalkDT]

Like above, obviosuly he can't be immune if his soul can be manipulated. Its just that soul manipulation doesnt mean as much. Like my example with SPN, regular people can get hit by tier 2 soul hax and destruction and not die yet we dont give the entire verse immunity as their souls are clearly being affected.
my 2 cents, nite

And as the people that disagreed said, him breaking out of that seal doesn't indicate that he wouldn't die if his soul is destroyed. So... you're missing the point.

Immunity is the question or more specifically whether he would survive if his soul is erased.
	~ The OP. Read it​

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

If this is the extent of his soul resistance (Heck calling it a resistance is a bit odd as his soul is still effected, he can simply function when his soul is separated. Its rather unconventional) then he dies to soul destruction techniques.

 

[StrongClick]

The quote clearly says grimoires shatter the soul. The point as Der and EMS said is the status of his soul doesn't effect his general well being, thanks to his power.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The quote clearly says grimoires shatter the soul. The point as Der and EMS said is the status of his soul doesn't effect his general well being, thanks to his power.

I mean, the grimoire thing is a separate issue. It was rejected in the past, but we can debate that again in another thread. However, that would also just be baseline soul resistance, not "surviving soul manip that can wipe out all souls on the planet"-level soul resistance.

As said, resisting a spell that's supposed to separate soul from body isn't ground for not dying from soul destruction. Beast Zero Gudako gave a good example in that regard. Puella Magi Character run around with their soul outside their body at all times, but if their soul is destroyed they still die.

 

[StrongClick]

Don't recall, which thread? It's on the profile from mind/soul hax resist. Adding multipliers on soul destruction specifically don't matter though if the soul is destroyed. Like for example we don't argue if a person can't revive because they were killed by higher AP than they have been killed from before.

That's merely verse mechanics like Der's SPN example, but we seem to be ignoring index's for some reason. In index you can die if your soul leaves you case and point himegami quote.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Don't blame you for not recalling. Was likely years ago, which is why I will also not try to find where we (the people around at that time) debated that. Pretty sure we never used grimoires for anything but mindhax resistance.

True, I only mentioned that in regards to the fact that baseline resistance that might be gained from resisting grimoire effects wouldn't support the claim made.

Pretty sure you can die in Puella Magi from that as well, if supernatural powers don't prevent that. That being said it isn't the point.

As usual you will have to prove the fact that he can survive with his soul destroyed. What the Puella Magi case demonstrates is that there isn't an implication that states "characters that survive with their soul outside their body don't die from soul destruction", since some characters we know are a counter-example.

So Fiamma surviving with his soul outside his body (mind you, whether the technique ever even accomplished pulling out his soul isn't even certain) doesn't mean he can survive with his soul destroyed. As usual what is lacking is concrete proof, beyond just speculation and assumptions of how something should work.

Either you need to show a quote that states "Characters in Index that can survive having their soul briefly outside their body don't die from soul destruction." or "Fiamma doesn't die from soul destruction". What we have doesn't suffice.

 

[StrongClick]

Either you need to show a quote that states "Characters in Index that can survive having their soul briefly outside their body don't die from soul destruction." or "Fiamma doesn't die from soul destruction". What we have doesn't suffice.

TLDR:

So, I brought up the Himegami quote because she's a human who died instantly from being an empty shell due to soul extraction. To address the former, Fiamma is a human as well who became an empty shell "hollow existence" meaning his power ignored the fact this should kill him. The latter, Fiamma spams toxic grimore knowlege like it doesn't matter. Whether it be for spells or for angel/ceremony knowledge despite the fact it causes the soul to shatter, due to his power. We know the human soul is the source of lifeforce so things like being alive and using magic are hard to do without one.

Also, you might be right the grimore soul manip quotes are rather recent so it couldnt have been years ago.

 

[Malox1696]

It's less an immunity and more of an anti tamper but only with HR

 

[DontTalkDT]

Fiamma is a human as well who became an empty shell "hollow existence" meaning his power ignored the fact this should kill him.

That's the point, that THIS would kill him. Not that soul destruction would kill him which is not comparable.

The latter, Fiamma spams toxic grimore knowlege like it doesn't matter.

Which indicates nothing in regards of what this debate is about, as his soul wasn't destroyed by that.

 

[StrongClick]

I think you're missing the point. No soul as in no lifeforce i the human body equals death. Extraction is the same as not having one. Shattering is destruction and the same as not having one. Both mean death. The fact that both have happened to Fiamma mean his well being isn't dependent of his soul status while powered.

In some verses like you said not having a soul in the body is survivable and in some verses like said above soul destruction is irrelevant to the status of the person. I'm merely explaining how it is in index.

 

[Malox1696]

it's not specifically an immunity, simply HR was not active when it used the spell but as it's linked to his soul he could activate it after his soul was separated (the whole removal of the sin stuff) , and then HR being HR said nope to soul manipulation

with HR active it's simply souls manipulation resistance, without HR active he can still use HR as it's related to his "sinless" soul

 

[StrongClick]

While the third arm wasn't manifested, that "power" that still exists within fiamma allowed him to operate in a soulless state. Then he merely manifests the third arm and the HR counter attacks.

 

[Malox1696]

yes but it's not immunity, it's just resistance/counter with HR and by nature of his ability he can use it even with his soul and body divided

 

[StrongClick]

I think we agree.

 

[Malox1696]

if u want to be more precise it would be immunity to soul removal even without HR active, as he can still do what he wants with HR by nature of ability, and resistance to soul manipulation with HR active