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Soul Hax potency and beings without souls
- Thread starter XDragnoir
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- soul manipulation
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I don't think this can logically be a potency thing, since even something with infinite potency cannot affect something which doesn't exist.
So it should just be:
Soul Manipulation Resistance Negation (Can affect beings without souls.)
So it should just be:
Soul Manipulation Resistance Negation (Can affect beings without souls.)
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You can't soul hax something with no soul.
Deleted member 16409
Guest
Bleach trying to Soul Crush Flowey from Undertale
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It is possible that one can create soul for the soul-less being and then damage him. Otherwise no, no matter how amazing, how op one's soul hax is, it won't do crap to soul less entity.
It's like trying to mindhax the crap out of a noemal rock. You can't.
It's like trying to mindhax the crap out of a noemal rock. You can't.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,331
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It should be qualified as immunity negation imo, basically the same as type 5 immortality negation which is also logically impossible but is considered a type of negation.
Vietthai96
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It is either outlier, inconsistency or the soul hax have feat affecting soulless being, that all, there is no such a thing as resistance negation or infinite layers
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Vietthai96
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You misunderstanding, soul hax a soulless being is just a better feat. Not resistance negation. Soulless being have resistance or immunity to soul hax is because they have no soul from the start for you to soul hax, not because they have actual resistance
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Well you can't just ignore the feat in question unless it's an outlier. Whether it makes sense or not, if the author says that someone's soul-hax affects people without souls, then it does.
Not having a soul is treated as immunity, which is a type of resistance.
What doesn't work is trying to attribute this to a specific potency, and it probably doesn't apply to people who do have souls but resist soul manipulation normally.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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"The highest degree of resistance is outright Immunity"
C'mon man. A soulless being has immunity to soulhax, which means they have resistance by default, because the resistance page says immunity is just really, really good resistance. Go to any page with immunity listed, and it'll redirect to the resistance page.
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It's just a nonsense feat that I'm pretty sure no one on the wiki currently has. You can't soul-hax something without a soul and handwave the clear logical error away was "muh fiction". Either it's a plain inconsistency, outlier or the character doesn't understand what he's talking about.
Though if the work in question outright goes out of its way to say the character can do so then I guess it can be specified he can do that specifically to soulless beings. Still, not a potency feat or anything of the sort.
Though if the work in question outright goes out of its way to say the character can do so then I guess it can be specified he can do that specifically to soulless beings. Still, not a potency feat or anything of the sort.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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I honestly don't get what the practical difference between this and killing someone with type 5 immortality is. They're both completely illogical and rely on targeting something that doesn't exist (souls for soulless beings, the concept of death for type 5 immortals), so I fail to see how one is fine to keep while the other gets shrugged off as bullshit. May as well have some consistency with issues like this.
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Not sure the point of the first paragraph when you concede in the second anyways, but yeah.
We accept plenty of illogical things on this wiki because it's fiction. I mean, just look at the entirety of NEP.
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Well, they'd need feats of it.
It'd probably end up being not bone manipulation, but their exoskeleton or something.
Though, killing an insect with bone manipulation is very easy if you're Sans.
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....No? A Type 5 Immortal still exists in some manner outside of life and death. Erasing whatever manner that is doesn't contradict their immortality. Not the same thing as here.
Vietthai96
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"The highest degree of resistance is outright Immunity"
C'mon man. A soulless being has immunity to soulhax, which means they have resistance by default, because the resistance page says immunity is just really, really good resistance. Go to any page with immunity listed, and it'll redirect to the resistance page.
Again, they immune to soul hax because they have no soul, not because they have power to resist soul hax, nothing here is immunity or resistance negation
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So why is it called Deathless immortality?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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If they can 'die' in a traditional sense (ie; anything that isn't EE), then yes, that is a massive contradiction. To say otherwise is just ignoring how type 5 works lmao
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...Except I'm saying that you specifically need methods like EE or something equivalent to erase them? I never said they could die traditionally. Hence the "erase" comment.
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Well, we're getting a little semantic here.
They're immune to soul manipulation because they have no soul, but this particular brand of soul hax is able to affect people who have no soul (somehow).
It doesn't make sense, so you can't generalize it to other resistances, but you can to the specific immunity via having no soul.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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My point is that we have numerous characters who have type 5 immortality negation that aren't using EE or anything similar; They just kill type 5s as if the immortality was never a factor to begin with. Yet, I don't see people posting about how stupid that is and how it shouldn't be used even though it makes just as much sense as soulhaxing someone without a soul.
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Negating immortality isn't the same as whatever's going on when a guy tries to soul rip a rock. The immortality is an actual quality most of the time that can be negated, they're not affecting something that doesn't exist.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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What? Yes they are. They're essentially forcing the concept of 'death' onto something that is unbound from that concept entirely. Plus there are characters who can use death hax on type 5s just fine.
Also I'm pretty sure I've seen characters get type 5 negation from killing conceptually non-existent entities (Castlevania characters have this, I think) so the second part of your argument doesn't make much sense to me.
Also I'm pretty sure I've seen characters get type 5 negation from killing conceptually non-existent entities (Castlevania characters have this, I think) so the second part of your argument doesn't make much sense to me.
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The former is viable, nobody would complain here if a character gave a soulless character a soul then destroyed it. The latter one is admittedly an issue.
Dunno about Castlevania so I can't really comment on that.
I suppose type 5 Immortality might need to be checked at some time out now that you point this out. Doesn't make this anymore sensible, it just means we need to have more scrutiny with these things.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Immortality Negation (Type 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9; Can permanently kill the Time Reaper, who has Death's Regeneration level, which can bring itself back after being erased from existence while being the abstract concept of Death.[20] And scales off from other Creatures of Chaos which can survive lethal blows easily,[28] Can revive endlessly,[5] are beyond life and death due to being Conceptually Nonexistent,
This is on a few Castlevania profiles rn and is what I was referring to.
Well, that's fair then. I don't think I can really convince you on the matter of immunity negation, I just thought there was a bit of inconsistency here. My thoughts are if type 5 negation gets stricter in the future, I'm fine with soulhaxing soulless entities being rejected, but so long as type 5 negation stays as it is I think the soulhax stuff should stay due to being similarly illogical.
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I just don't think the argument of absurdity is reasonable given we have characters who don't exist, characters who can kill characters who don't exist, characters freezing things to absolute zero or below despite not being physically possible, make forks walk around, and an infinite number of absurd scenarios.
You can go full mat-pat and try to make a theory about how you soul-hax someone without a soul, maybe they give them a soul first maybe it's part of quantum physics or something, but without proof it's just theories, and the bottom line is we don't need to know how, because countless things already accepted can't be explained with normal logic.
You can go full mat-pat and try to make a theory about how you soul-hax someone without a soul, maybe they give them a soul first maybe it's part of quantum physics or something, but without proof it's just theories, and the bottom line is we don't need to know how, because countless things already accepted can't be explained with normal logic.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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The fact that NPI that can affect NEP beings is a thing makes me think the soulhax stuff is just an extension of that, or is at least similar to it. They're both targeting something that doesn't really exist, after all.
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Again, no. If you have a certain Aspect of NEP it still means that haxxing that aspect won't work. You can just interact with what's "left over" so to speak.
Honestly, most of the "logical errors" listed prior to this post are just standard powers and fiction being handwavy with physics, something that's just fiction in a nutshell.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Hm, that does make sense. Though, don't all NEP characters have physical non-existence by default anyways? So physically hitting them is still just as illogical, is it not?
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About as illogical as people punching ghosts.
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What, Flandre Scarlet soul rips a rock or something? I have no knowledge on the verse but it seems like the sort of thing an author would address without it being...this.
Vietthai96
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Nothing here is semantic, they having no soul that all, nothing here is resistance. And resistance negation mean you nullify that resistance. With your logic anyone can have resistance negation due to them have multi-layered hax
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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The thread itself is kinda complicated but basically, every character can absorb 'spirit power' from enemies, said spirit power is equivalent to souls based on a number of connections, and said absorption works on characters who don't have souls. Would rather not bring an entire controversial CRT into this thread, though.
Isn't NEP incorporeality way above what regular NPI can affect, though?
I feel like you keep ignoring how we classify immunity. It's considered a form of resistance, it's covered under the resistance page, every character with immunity on their page redirects to the resistance page, etc.
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Fair enough.
Yes and it needs corresponding NPI feats. That simple really.
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Resistance - Noun
The ability not to be affected by something, especially adversely.
Not having a soul provides resistance to soul manipulation (in this case immunity) by definition, since it provides them with the ability not to be affected by it.
Vietthai96
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Acausality type 4 still have their fate and causality. Just on different system
