Sora No Otoshimono: Nymph AP reasoning + Speed

[RadianceQ]

1. Her AP: I'm pretty sure she actually didn't kill any of those ikaros melan, but only stalled them until ikaros killed them off. More importantly I'm pretty sure this is an attack through her hacking or similar (it's called particle jamming, so I suppose something like an EMP). That is what Nymph usually does after all. Hacking shouldn't scale to her AP at all, though.

2. Her Speed: To quote from the speed page "The term "Speed" normally refers to Combat Speed." That means if you write "At least Massively Hypersonic+ with Massively FTL+ reactions/combat speed", then you are saying "At least Massively Hypersonic+ combat speed with Massively FTL+ combat speed". Don't really have to explain the problem, right?

Btw. that and ikaros stat should be Massively FTL+ perception, not reactions, as it comes from a reaction time (femtoseconds to deploy shield), not from a reaction speed. (this page and stuff)

 

[Kaltias]

Eh, fair enough on the first one. Then unknown for Pandora Nymph I guess.

Calibrating the shield in the middle of the battle should still scale to combat speed though. Especially considering that it definitely scales to combat for Chaos, Astraea and Nymph. Chaos was too fast for them (they weren't expecting it but still) Pandora 2 Astraea is faster, and Nymph did tagged Chaos. Ikaros should be comparable.

Btw, adding the verse to the topics helps finding discussions.

 

[RadianceQ]

You can not scale timeframes to speed. That is a nonsensial equivalence. That it is even called MFTL+ perception is literally just a name for the value, it has nothing to do with MFTL+ speed. The page even states:

"Reaction speed has both a distance and a timeframe component, so all calculations that are completed for reaction speed cannot simply be a timeframe by itself. Do not randomly assume a 1 meter distance for each timeframe and use that speed for the reaction speed."

What you are saying here is that being faster than someone that can have a thought in 0.000000000003336 seconds is equivalent to being 1000 times faster than light. There is no relation between those things at all. Being faster than that person only means moving faster than they can move.

If you want to make this a speed feat you will have to pull a quantified distance one of the characters moved in that timeframe from somewhere. A feat without distance moved is no speed feat per definition.


The fact that, as it's currently written, the combat speed is mentioned twice with two different values also still stands.

 

[Kaltias]

Blitzing a person means being faster than their perception speed though.

"If character A can blitz character B, A's movement speed may be scaled to B's reaction speed."

So Chaos scales, and so does Astraea. And Ikaros did matched Chaos's Artemis with her own as well.

 

[RadianceQ]

And if you read the page more thoroughly you will notice that it differentiates between a reaction speed and a Reaction timeframe, which is the perception speed.

"Reaction speed is defined as a single movement in a defined timeframe"

"Reaction speed has both a distance and a timeframe component."

Distance and time component. Reaction speed has the unit m/s.

What that rules you have states is that you can scale it if you a reaction speed (distance and time components present, unit m/s) to the movement speed.

Not that the names of the tiers for reaction timeframes (That section is explicitely named "reaction tiers for reaction timeframes only", aka not for reaction speeds) in any way at all relate to the movement speed of characters faster then them.

Heck, take a look at the last debate over changing the page .

"All the reaction time levels listed should have a suffix like "perception" to differentiate them in profiles from actual speed stats."

 

[Kaltias]

Ikaros is literally talking about her reactions though. And if a delay of 3,5 femtoseconds is a big deal, her reactions shouldn't be millions of times slower.

And if she was able to blitz her, that's still speed, because she has not perceived by her. Ikaros would have deployed Aegis otherwise, like she did when the Harpy were using that bomb in their collars.

 

[RadianceQ]

Ikaros is literally giving a timeframe, though, which per definition isn't a speed. Reaction speed is in common language often used to signify the time necessary to start making a movement, but is technically a misnomer and not how it's used in context of the wiki.

And if you want to use that timeframe to get a speed from blitzing you will have to approximate the distance the blitzer moved and apply the femtosecond timeframe to it to get speed and can completly scratch their other speed values.

Provided you can convince people that this timeframe is 100% consistent in all situations and MFTL+ movement speed isn't an outlier for a character that both per calcs and official statements stands far from that.

Officially her max rotation speed also increased by only 372% meaning that you would use an indirect calculation based on a statement to go against another statement.


Actually now that you mention that what is stated there is a delay. I never noticed but what she states there is actually a delay from her usual reaction time, no?

In that case the whole statement is meaningless. You might think since the delay is so incredibly short the total time is as well, but that is a wrong conclusion.

A modern computer can for example easily discern time by 1 millisecond (though technically clock rate can be something like 0.33 nanoseconds, the 1 millisecond is just for stuff like system time, which is amongst others dependend on operation system and programming language), however the time necessary for a complex calculation can be much longer (seconds, minutes, depends on the difficulty of course).

What I want to say with this is that accuracy of measuring a time delay from the expected value has actually nothing to do with the time to do the process itself. So this would be a precision feat, not a feat of reaction time.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. My apologies to Kaltias, who I usually agree with, but I think that RadianceQ seems to make sense here.

 

[Kaltias]

@Radiance

Moving a mm in 3.5 femtoseconds is still above the MFTL+ treshold. I'm positive that it was more than that.

Highest feat =/= outlier.

Well kinda. If said delay is a problem for the deployment, it means that she needs to deploy it that fast.

@Ant

No need to apologize. It's just a debate.

 

[RadianceQ]

What is considered a difficulty is dependend on the technological level.

In a modern computer misplacing a conductor a fraction of a millimeter can be a problem, even though the computer in total is relatively big. In a society with reality warping technology like this one, the technological level is so high that small deviations from expected values can be considered a problem.

And it's not like deploying Aegis in time was a practical problem, given that she deployed it just fine in that scene. (Shield deployment time just adds on top of her reaction time as well...)


The result you suggest is more than a hundred million times above your calcs and much more than that above the other statements, which give only a 372% speed increase.

And given that you use a statement for this you can not even argue feats > statements. You are indirectily using a statement in order to disprove a direct statement. So one can talk about an outlier here.

Basically you make the guess on the interpretation that short delay means short deployment time means short reaction time, but the mangas internal logic tells you this interpretation is wrong.

Between the options "the manga makes contradicting statements" and "the guess on that interpretation is wrong" the second is more probable.


Not to mention that this assumes that this statement is 100% consistent in all actions in the manga after it was made.

Tomoki for example also blocked one of chaos attacks. And right after the blitzing ikaros and nymph battled chaos in a battle where chaos may have had the upper hand, but wasn't blitzing them.

 

[Kaltias]

The 372% increase is after Ikaros has blitzed a Melan with her eyes closed. It hardly contradicts her being faster. And yeah, it's more than a million of times higher. Doesn't make it an outlier. Or else no more 4-B FF VII, 3-A DBS would have been an outlier till Zamasu etc.

Tomoki blocking Chaos makes as much sense as Nymph stomping Astraea in CQC. Which she did. PIS is a thing.

But yeah, you have convinced me. You can downgrade the Pandora Angeloids's speed. Nymph and Ikaros at Sub-Rel with Chaos and Astraea as "at least Sub-Rel" would work for you?

 

[Freedomstar]

1. Her AP: I'm pretty sure she actually didn't kill any of those ikaros melan, but only stalled them until ikaros killed them off. More importantly I'm pretty sure this is an attack through her hacking or similar (it's called particle jamming, so I suppose something like an EMP). That is what Nymph usually does after all. Hacking shouldn't scale to her AP at all, though.
2. Her Speed: To quote from the speed page "The term "Speed" normally refers to Combat Speed." That means if you write "At least Massively Hypersonic+ with Massively FTL+ reactions/combat speed", then you are saying "At least Massively Hypersonic+ combat speed with Massively FTL+ combat speed". Don't really have to explain the problem, right?

Btw. that and ikaros stat should be Massively FTL+ perception, not reactions, as it comes from a reaction time (femtoseconds to deploy shield), not from a reaction speed. (this page and stuff)

Ummm what? Nymph hacking has shown to cause mental and phyiscal damage. Just by powering up because Chaos kill Hiyori her hacking caused Ikaros and Astraea mental and physical damage. The only thing she has shown to shut down temporalily is Zeus and it didn't even shoot a fully power shot at her. Also you're saying Nymph only use Emp but the same attacks work on organics such as Humans and plants. What are you talking about? Nymph killed 24 melan Ikaros. When Ikaros woke up and fought she killed the rest which was 17. So where did Ikaros kill the rest at?

 

[Freedomstar]

What is considered a difficulty is dependend on the technological level.
In a modern computer misplacing a conductor a fraction of a millimeter can be a problem, even though the computer in total is relatively big. In a society with reality warping technology like this one, the technological level is so high that small deviations from expected values can be considered a problem.

And it's not like deploying Aegis in time was a practical problem, given that she deployed it just fine in that scene. (Shield deployment time just adds on top of her reaction time as well...)


The result you suggest is more than a hundred million times above your calcs and much more than that above the other statements, which give only a 372% speed increase.

And given that you use a statement for this you can not even argue feats > statements. You are indirectily using a statement in order to disprove a direct statement. So one can talk about an outlier here.

Basically you make the guess on the interpretation that short delay means short deployment time means short reaction time, but the mangas internal logic tells you this interpretation is wrong.

Between the options "the manga makes contradicting statements" and "the guess on that interpretation is wrong" the second is more probable.


Not to mention that this assumes that this statement is 100% consistent in all actions in the manga after it was made.

Tomoki for example also blocked one of chaos attacks. And right after the blitzing ikaros and nymph battled chaos in a battle where chaos may have had the upper hand, but wasn't blitzing them.

How is this a problem? The lasers can cross the planet in one small panel. Also you have to remember that Ikaros has just gotten this form. The Melan Ikaros have spammed lasers at her. Keep in mind that Ikaros eyes are closed but she already noticed and reacted to the attack. She turns on power test mode so she can test her new power. When the lasers are on top of her she then deploys her shield and deplays her reaction speed by 3.5 femtoseconds and adjust her shield so it can reflect attacks. Also the 372% speed rotational thing is her reducing her armour weight so she can fight an angeloid whos bread and butter is CQC.

 

[RadianceQ]

But yeah, you have convinced me. You can downgrade the Pandora Angeloids's speed. Nymph and Ikaros at Sub-Rel with Chaos and Astraea as "at least Sub-Rel" would work for you?

Sorry for being late. Was occupied with stuff the last days.

Sub-Rel because of the 372% thing? Yes, that would make sense to me. I will get to it in a bit.

Nymph hacking has shown to cause mental and phyiscal damage. Just by powering up because Chaos kill Hiyori her hacking caused Ikaros and Astraea mental and physical damage.

Nymphs hacking causes physical damage, because she makes the target malfunction and manipulates their own systems against them. What she does in physical damage through hacking she does like that. Pretty sure her hacking never involved shooting beams of her own energy energy at the opponents or otherwise physically damaging them directly through her own power.

Nymph killed 24 melan Ikaros. When Ikaros woke up and fought she killed the rest which was 17. So where did Ikaros kill the rest at?

Nymph wasn't shown destroying any of the Melan. She only used hacking to cause them pain and a certain amount of malfunctioning.

I haven't exactly counted the Melan, but if there were a bunch killed off screen it is much more likely that one of the countless projectiles Ikaros shot and refelected killed them, than that Nymph killed them off screen, given that the latter hasn't been shown to kill a single one of them on screen. Doesn't hold much relevance though, because as said: It's hacking.

The lasers can cross the planet in one small panel. Also you have to remember that Ikaros has just gotten this form. The Melan Ikaros have spammed lasers at her. Keep in mind that Ikaros eyes are closed but she already noticed and reacted to the attack. She turns on power test mode so she can test her new power. When the lasers are on top of her she then deploys her shield

None of that relates to anything anyone debated here... nobody claims she can't react to the lasers or that the calc that doesn't use statements is illegitimate.

and deplays her reaction speed by 3.5 femtoseconds

As argued much above 3.5 femtoseconds isn't her reaction time, but the delay of the usual/expected value. And her reaction time isn't her reaction speed.

the 372% speed rotational thing is her reducing her armour weight so she can fight an angeloid whos bread and butter is CQC.

In other words it is her doing the modifications that upgrade her speed in the new form. Nobody denied that?

 

[RadianceQ]

Suggested changes performed.

 

[Kaltias]

Yeah, the sub-rel was because base Ikaros is above Mach 5800 to an unknown extent via being >> Nymph with Pandora Ikaros being >>>>>>>>>>>>> both of them, and the boost of 372% places her well into Sub-Rel.

Should I close this?

 

[RadianceQ]

From my side it can be closed.