Sonny Boy Cosmology/Introduction thread.

[Blackcurrant91]

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The author here never mention it, or is the “darkness” your terminology?

'The Darkness' is what it's referred to in the first scan of the blog.



This is where the 'branching' worlds come from too

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is from inferring it through the pictures drawn on the chalkboards of this worlds and how they record them, they appear to be layered on top of each other.

This looks to me a usual chart map, not strictly speaking layers.

I should clarify they where only able to get to the edge of it with an FTL ship. They could only get back there with one of Mizohu's compasses which they previously didnt have. Once there they used Asakaze's and Mizuho's power to move across the surface of this worlds.

They where able to get home due to Mizuho's power of superposition, or closing the box of possibilities, FTL was required for them to get to the 'Entrance of Dimensions' as it's described or the start of the Darkness/Void.

Which is why I still think it is a gateway or supernatural similar to wormhole rather than strictly speaking a structure.

'The Darkness' is what it's referred to in the first scan of the blog.

For me, it's still odd that the author explained everything very well, except for the void/darkness part.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

This looks to me a usual chart map, not strictly speaking layers.


Which is why I still think it is a gateway or supernatural similar to wormhole rather than strictly speaking a structure.

For me, it's still odd that the author explained everything very well, except for the void/darkness part.

I agree, and am happy to concede it doesn't possess any qualitative superiority to this worlds.

It is also implied that even the real world is itself another 'This World' because the students powers originated there.

I will re-do the blog to incorporate this info.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Alright, I am glad I could help here!

 

[Georredannea15]

I find this to be a very reasonable interperetation and does get to the heart of my argument.

So for the array of 'This Worlds' we would have something like 'Varies from 11-A to High 1-C, possibly High 1-B'?

I am curious on your thoughts on the movie theatre world in this case? As it is seemingly just another 'This World' but also contains all worlds simultaneously within endless rows of film reels (an entire universe able to be projected onto a screen) would this count as 'encompassing' the previous structure? Or is this what you meant by 11-D?

Man i have a question.

Does High 1-C come from M theory and the existence of higher dimensions? If so, High 1-C, I think probably H1-B is good. I mean, there's no conclusive evidence of qualitative superiority between all of them, but it can scale like that because it's a reference to higher dimensions.

But as I said, there was a scene where it was stated that it "extending infinitely in every directions". I think you could try something from there

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Man i have a question.

Does High 1-C come from M theory and the existence of higher dimensions? If so, High 1-C, I think probably H1-B is good. I mean, there's no conclusive evidence of qualitative superiority between all of them, but it can scale like that because it's a reference to higher dimensions.

But as I said, there was a scene where it was stated that it "extending infinitely in every directions". I think you could try something from there

Yeh, I think Dread's assessment was there was potentially simply the possibiliy of infinite dimensions existing across infinite stories so 1-B instead of High 1-B I guess.

 

[Georredannea15]

Yeh, I think Dread's assessment was there was potentially simply the possibiliy of infinite dimensions existing across infinite stories so 1-B instead of High 1-B I guess.

I think it should be H1-B instead of 1-B but in a "possibly" way.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I think it should be H1-B instead of 1-B but in a "possibly" way.

I agree with this personally. I feel as though the Movie Theatre World very much would count as High 1-B due to encompassing all other This Worlds and seemingly also viewing them as fictional spaces.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I also feel as though 'The Real World' displays transcendance over other 'This Worlds' as it is simultaneously not observable and no matter how far up the scale of 'This Worlds' the characters go they never get closer to it. It also seems to display a similar Reality Fiction interaction as the Movie Theatre World does with the worlds (or as the director puts it 'stories') that are contained within it.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Bump

 

[Blackcurrant91]

bumpo

 

[ImmortalDread]

I also feel as though 'The Real World' displays transcendance over other 'This Worlds' as it is simultaneously not observable and no matter how far up the scale of 'This Worlds' the characters go they never get closer to it. It also seems to display a similar Reality Fiction interaction as the Movie Theatre World does with the worlds (or as the director puts it 'stories') that are contained within it.

I don't mind it as 1-A justification, but honestly? I am still not convinced if it is solid. So I will leave it as “possibly”, because I don't think the inaccessibility here has the same properties as we define in our system.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I don't mind it as 1-A justification, but honestly? I am still not convinced if it is solid. So I will leave it as “possibly”, because I don't think the inaccessibility here has the same properties as we define in our system.

I would probably rate it as a 'possibly Low 1-A' for seemingly displaying reality>fiction transcendance over 'This Worlds'

 

[ImmortalDread]

I would probably rate it as a 'possibly Low 1-A' for seemingly displaying reality>fiction transcendance over 'This Worlds'

Of course, I believe I can accept the situation.

In any case, I've completed my entire assessment and omitted my evaluation. We engaged in a courteous and logical exchange of ideas during our discussion. It seems that all that's required now is the involvement of staff members to bring this to a conclusion.

 

[DarkGrath]

So, I'll admit, I've not thoroughly read all of the replies in this thread so far. I have read the cosmology blog, however, and I do have some contentions.

Most notably, while the cosmology blog explains that the 'This Worlds' can support higher or lower dimensional worlds, and that there are infinitely many of these worlds, the proof that they exist in an infinite hierarchy is limited. The implication behind the cosmology suggested seems to be that there is a 1 dimensional world, a 2 dimensional world, a 3 dimensional world, 4 dimensional, 5, 6, 7, and so on, and that there being infinitely many of these worlds equates to there being worlds with infinite dimensions. But the idea that each world is higher dimensional than the last is far too specific to infer from what's presented - the best evidence we have for this specific idea, from what I can see on the blog, is a drawn diagram that implies the universes are stacked on top of one another. This could be indicative of a dimensional hierarchy, but it doesn't have to be. Furthermore, I'd argue some the evidence goes against this notion. Consider the author's comments:

"Kodama’s power, if we were to put it into one word, would be the “M theory” that is known as the “unified field theory”, something that governs even the 11 dimensions of physics. If something exists in this world, then it even exists in the work, except how deep you would have to dig down for it is something that one couldn’t possibly understand, so at the end of the day, that, too, becomes “something that exists as something that can’t be understood” in its own right."

This statement implies that the dimensional structure the verse uses is the one devised by M Theory, and that M Theory only goes up to 11 dimensions. Now, to be clear, the fact that "if something exists in this world, then it even exists in the work" doesn't mean things that don't exist in this world can't exist in the work - that would be denying the antecedent, which is not a valid argument, and it is not my point either. My point is that this statement implies they incorporated dimensional theory into the work that was based on M Theory, which the author specifically points out as governing up to 11 dimensions, and they suggest that they did this because of its applicability to the real world. This would seemingly go against the notion that there is an infinite dimensional hierarchy.

I imagine there is probably more to be said on this, however - I have not watched the show myself, so my context regarding this evidence is limited. Importantly, I imagine context regarding the diagram presented and the means in which they traverse to other worlds through the Darkness could explain in greater depth why the interpretation of a dimensional hierarchy was chosen.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

So, I'll admit, I've not thoroughly read all of the replies in this thread so far. I have read the cosmology blog, however, and I do have some contentions.

Most notably, while the cosmology blog explains that the 'This Worlds' can support higher or lower dimensional worlds, and that there are infinitely many of these worlds, the proof that they exist in an infinite hierarchy is limited. The implication behind the cosmology suggested seems to be that there is a 1 dimensional world, a 2 dimensional world, a 3 dimensional world, 4 dimensional, 5, 6, 7, and so on, and that there being infinitely many of these worlds equates to there being worlds with infinite dimensions. But the idea that each world is higher dimensional than the last is far too specific to infer from what's presented - the best evidence we have for this specific idea, from what I can see on the blog, is a drawn diagram that implies the universes are stacked on top of one another. This could be indicative of a dimensional hierarchy, but it doesn't have to be. Furthermore, I'd argue some the evidence goes against this notion. Consider the author's comments:

"Kodama’s power, if we were to put it into one word, would be the “M theory” that is known as the “unified field theory”, something that governs even the 11 dimensions of physics. If something exists in this world, then it even exists in the work, except how deep you would have to dig down for it is something that one couldn’t possibly understand, so at the end of the day, that, too, becomes “something that exists as something that can’t be understood” in its own right."

This statement implies that the dimensional structure the verse uses is the one devised by M Theory, and that M Theory only goes up to 11 dimensions. Now, to be clear, the fact that "if something exists in this world, then it even exists in the work" doesn't mean things that don't exist in this world can't exist in the work - that would be denying the antecedent, which is not a valid argument, and it is not my point either. My point is that this statement implies they incorporated dimensional theory into the work that was based on M Theory, which the author specifically points out as governing up to 11 dimensions, and they suggest that they did this because of its applicability to the real world. This would seemingly go against the notion that there is an infinite dimensional hierarchy.

I imagine there is probably more to be said on this, however - I have not watched the show myself, so my context regarding this evidence is limited. Importantly, I imagine context regarding the diagram presented and the means in which they traverse to other worlds through the Darkness could explain in greater depth why the interpretation of a dimensional hierarchy was chosen.

I see what you mean.

Regarding the director statement, I believe he's trying to make a statement about how 'This Worlds' function more so then tying them specifically to the concept of M-Theory. He is stating that Kodama's world is defined by the M-Theory from our world which defines the 11 dimensions of physics and the reason he chose this idea for Kodama's world specifically is because of it's name 'Unified Field Theory' which has to do with the themes of the episode of Yamabiko uniting himself with the parts of his personality he split off from himself. He even goes on to state

"If something exists in this world, then it even exists in the work, except how deep you would have to dig down for it is something that one couldn’t possibly understand, so at the end of the day, that, too, becomes “something that exists as something that can’t be understood” in its own right."

I believe he is trying to clarify here that if one where to travel further down or up within 'This Worlds' one would find worlds defined by theories that defy explanation but become real through the process of Nagara observing the possibilities contained within 'The Box' in Shrodingers box analogy.

I also wanted to note that he is good friends with the author of Self Reference Engine (not that this implies he is knowledgable on other dimensional theories but it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility)

"Natsume: Here, we drew Flatland. The novel Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions served as the motif here.[2] Actually, we already did it in the Space Dandy episode that Tou Enjou-san did the screenplay for (Episode 24 “An Other-Dimensional Tale, Baby”

Another reason I believe this is because all of these worlds can seemingly be contained within higher ones such as the Movie Theatre World which contains all the possible worlds Nagara's power crystalised into reality as film strips that he can place into a projector and edit as he pleases which either implies a degree of Reality>Fiction transcendance for each world (something which is backed up by the way 'The Real World' is seemingly transcendant over 'This Worlds'.

This Movie Theatre World is seemingly below the School that resides within the Darkness and the school which resides within 'The Real World' that the characters start in.

Apologies for the long reply.

 

[DarkGrath]

Another reason I believe this is because all of these worlds can seemingly be contained within higher ones such as the Movie Theatre World which contains all the possibly worlds Nagara's power crystalised into reality as film strips that he can place into a projector and edit as he pleases which either implies a degree of Reality>Fiction transcendance for each world (something which is backed up by the way 'The Real World' is seemingly transcendant over 'This Worlds'.

I think I see what you're saying here. Is the Movie Theatre at the "top" of these infinitely many worlds, by any chance?

What you've established is that, from the position of the movie theatre, all the other worlds are fictional by relative means. While it wouldn't prove it, if the "Movie Theatre" sits above all of the other worlds on the hierarchy, this could imply they were trying to communicate the idea that each world on the hierarchy is qualitatively superior to the worlds beneath them.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I think I see what you're saying here. Is the Movie Theatre at the "top" of these infinitely many worlds, by any chance?

What you've established is that, from the position of the movie theatre, all the other worlds are fictional by relative means. While it wouldn't prove it, if the "Movie Theatre" sits above all of the other worlds on the hierarchy, this could imply they were trying to communicate the idea that each world on the hierarchy is qualitatively superior to the worlds beneath them.

It's unclear if the Movie Theatre world is the top of the Heirarchy but it contains every world created by Nagara which are described as 'Endless stories'.

There are two 'This Worlds' 'God' created. One of those is 'The School within the Darkness' which is a void that erases anything unrelated to the students and the school (they where copied by Mizuho's power and then sent here by God) and the other is 'The Real World' which is a timeline of the Real World where God is the principle of the school and gives the students their powers that causes the drifting in the first place.

Nagara's power extends from the movie theatre world and down but to gain access to the real world once more (or the light that Nozomi's power see's that is unobservable and stays the same distance away from them no matter how high or low down the heirarchy of worlds they go) they have to help each other and give up their powers.

 

[DarkGrath]

It's unclear if the Movie Theatre world is the top of the Heirarchy but it contains every world created by Nagara which are described as 'Endless stories'.

There are two 'This Worlds' 'God' created. One of those is 'The School within the Darkness' which is a void that erases anything unrelated to the students and the school (they where copied by Mizuho's power and then sent here by God) and the other is 'The Real World' which is a timeline of the Real World where God is the principle of the school and gives the students their powers that causes the drifting in the first place.

Nagara's power extends from the movie theatre world and down but to gain access to the real world once more (or the light that Nozomi's power see's that is unobservable and stays the same distance away from them no matter how high or low down the heirarchy of worlds they go) they have to help each other and give up their powers.

I see.

I have to be honest, I'm not yet convinced that this cosmology follows an infinite dimensional hierarchy - I believe there's a lot of pointers to similar things, but the notion that the worlds stacked on top of one another are explicitly each qualitatively superior to one another and follow a dimensional scale endlessly high is not thoroughly founded.

That being said, it's not a totally unreasonable interpretation of the evidence. There is some kind of hierarchy of worlds, and with all this talk of higher-dimensional structures and worlds that can have reality/fiction transcendence over each other, I don't think treating it as such is absurd. The hierarchy has to be something, after all, and it sounds like the author was going for something similar to what you describe.

I can't concede on a definitive rating with the current evidence, but I'd be fine with a "possibly" rating for any tiers based on this cosmology.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I see.

I have to be honest, I'm not yet convinced that this cosmology follows an infinite dimensional hierarchy - I believe there's a lot of pointers to similar things, but the notion that the worlds stacked on top of one another are explicitly each qualitatively superior to one another and follow a dimensional scale endlessly high is not thoroughly founded.

That being said, it's not a totally unreasonable interpretation of the evidence. There is some kind of hierarchy of worlds, and with all this talk of higher-dimensional structures and worlds that can have reality/fiction transcendence over each other, I don't think treating it as such is absurd. The hierarchy has to be something, after all, and it sounds like the author was going for something similar to what you describe.

I can't concede on a definitive rating with the current evidence, but I'd be fine with a "possibly" rating for any tiers based on this cosmology.

Yeh we where thinking a 'possibly High 1-B' rating for the Heirarchy of this Worlds and im not sure about possibly 'Low 1-A' for the Real World.

I am also unsure how to scale characters that scale to Kodama's world of 11-D like Kodama and Yamabiko.

It may be a bit too ambiguous of a verse to index at the end of the day. Not 100% sure how to proceed.

 

[DarkGrath]

Possibly Low 1-A for the "Real World" sounds fine. If every other premise is true, then it stands that the "Real World" completely transcends the hierarchy of "This Worlds", to the extent of being entirely separate from it rather than just on top of it. That would pretty much be an archetypal example of what would qualify for our standards. To quote the tiering system page:

"Note that, if the High 1-B structure in question is a hierarchy of levels of existence, then simply being at the top of such a hierarchy does not qualify a character for this tier without more context, and an additional layer added on top of the "infinity-th" level of this hierarchy is likewise not enough. To qualify as an equivalent of the above description, they need to surpass the hierarchy as a whole, and not simply be on another level within it."

This sounds exactly like the relationship the Real World has with This Worlds.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

So we would need 1 or 2 more mods to apply this then?

 

[DarkGrath]

So we would need 1 or 2 more mods to apply this then?

Another staff member will have to look over this. It's annoying for threads that have taken a while, I'm aware - however, it's inappropriate to pass anything other than very simple revisions based only on the input of a single staff member. Even for a small verse, a cosmology explanation that would upgrade a verse to tier 1 is far too major to pass off of only one moderator's input.

 

[ImmortalDread]

So we would need 1 or 2 more mods to apply this then?

You require an administrator

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Another staff member will have to look over this. It's annoying for threads that have taken a while, I'm aware - however, it's inappropriate to pass anything other than very simple revisions based only on the input of a single staff member. Even for a small verse, a cosmology explanation that would upgrade a verse to tier 1 is far too major to pass off of only one moderator's input.

Oh I have no problem with this. Wasn't 100% sure how many mods where required for tier one. Thanks for confirming.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

bumpo