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Sonic VS Lavos

The real cal howard said:
There's also the fact that Sonic's a physical fighter. Idk why people are treating him as a Reinhard-type that haxes left and right.

Furthermore, Sonic has never affected nonexistence, needs the Cosmic Interstate to traverse multiverses (so BFR is a thing), and gets absorbed as soon as he tries to punch Lavos.
Click to expand...
It's not uncommon for Sonic to use Chaos energy attacks.

Conceptual manipulation can deal with non-existence.

Also no, he doesn't need the interstate at all.

6375A7E7-6F53-4B6A-A6BB-74CE2BFD8D26
 
Still. It's what Causality said: Sonic can affect Concepts/Abstracts = Sonic can affect Lavos.

Regardless, even if the abstract thing weren't true and Sonic needed the OOC ability to get perma-rid of it, this match would just be him pummeling TD due to the unbelievable gap in scaling, realizing he can't kill it by punching because it regens/alts keep coming and then proceeding to indeed use the ability which perma-kills sooner than later.

That's about it.
 
@Fate

Stuff like Touhou gods. They aren't concepts, but they are ideas, so they are still abstract type 1.

Concepts are abstractions, but so are thoughts, ideas etc
 
Well it depends from the abstraction but yeah it can.

My revision of the AE page was basically a big "we are putting way too much stuff under the same power, we need to change it"

Kinda like non physical interaction having varying degrees. You can affect a dream but not necessarily a concept, and similar stuff
 
@Kal Yeah, it's just that I originally thought type 1 only referred to concepts around here (partially due to Madoka being in the examples).
 
I'll be a sport and humour Cal on the BFR bit, since that's most likely what Lavos alts will be pulling once the first one gets absolutely wrecked. Can Sonic deny the following manners of BFR:

1. BFR to any point in time.

2. BFR to the DBT (recquires travel between Multiverses). Has an added effect of erasing stuff that ends up there from existence so depending on the character they may end up dying to erasure before getting out.

3. BFR to Hell - the target's Soul is BFR'd to Hell , the body is left behind as an empty husk. This BFR doesn't need to "aim" (it's not something seen like a portal or such), it just affects the target directly. Insta-kills and prevents Resurrection or Regen for obvious reasons. Generally ignores resistance in-verse.

4. BFR to 2-D - Pretty OOC for Lavos to go for this one. AOE is pretty good though. Everything around the target distorts and they're isolated in the 2-D Temporal Vortex. Note that Serge couldn't leave this place without Harle's help at first, and he did have dimensional travel. But again, *veeeeeery* OOC for Lavos to pull this in any situation.

There. I'm pretty much fine with the current result but if Sonic can nope and/or come back from this stuff (which admittedly will be used by Lavos early in the fight save for the 2-D one, which is why I'm at least listening to Cal's "multiversal reset is OOC so Lavos has time to try and BFR due to alts"), I absolutely see no argument whatsoever that can be made for Lavos here.
 
Absorption is another no-go of course, since Sonic is higher enough in 2-A scale to blast whatever Lavos that thinks of absorbing him before it happens in a single blow.
 
1) BFR to any point in time.

This should be useless against anyone with immeasurable speed. Sonic also fought Solaris who has temporal omnipresence so yeah, not working.

2) BFR to DBT.

Useless as Sonic's range covers two multiverses. Also lol about Cal bringing up the Cosmic Interstate.

3) Soul BFR to Hell.

Sonic resists Enerjak's soul manipulation who can rip souls from the body with a gesture.

4) BFR to 2D could be an issue, but as you mentioned it's OOC so don't see him doing it before Sonic just nukes him.
 
In case 1 I know it's weird but it still needs a mention since oddly enough there were some shenanigans in Chrono Cross where Serge couldn't access certain points in time or cross dimensions because the Frozen Flame was saying "Nope! It isn't your body."

Long story short, the FF was preventing Serge's time/dimensional travelling from working because it wasn't his body.

And it was also preventing anyone else who previously could from doing it, which is why the other antagonist who also scales to endgame and usually could time-travel had to go through all the trouble of waiting a bunch of years for Serge (who wasn't being timeblocked) to mature so he could go through even more trouble to do a body change with him, so the configuration of the Frozen Flame/instructions on time set up by Schala would actually say "Ok you're Serge, you can time travel now".

I didn't mention the BFR across time. I mentioned if he can come back past someone BFRing and saying "No U" to any manner of time or dimensional travel being used.
 
Not really a point since all characters who were blocked had immeasurable speed to begin with. lol

Anyways, this is again the same case of different scale. In case 1, even assuming Sonic gets BFR'd to some place and stuck, he would simply have all the more reason to nuke/reset the Multiverse with far superior power, nuking Lavos as well in the process.

In case 2, this had been brought up from the start of the thread but it's what was questioned the most so no harm in getting it answered once and for all.

In case 3, I dunno the scale of Ennerjak's Soul Manip. Lavos potency in this one should scale to the CC which equals the unification of every living being from the infinite multiverse. I dunno if that's higher than what he has but Hellbound is relatively OOC for Lavos to use too.

In case 4, I'm 95% sure the odds of Lavos pulling it before a nuke are about as existent as Lavos itself.
 
1) So even if that BFR does work, still bites Lavos. Yeah that's out.

3) Enerjak used his soul manipulation on a planetary scale although he also corrupted 2-A Chaos Knuckles into becoming his avatar.

4) Safe to say it's not happening then.
 
So just wrapping it up:

1) Backfires.

2) Moot.

3) Arguably resisted, but also unlikely to be used in the first place. Significant chance that it doesn't even happen before nuke.

4) Not happening before nuke due to extreme case of OOC (Yes, it's even more uncommon for Lavos to use this than for Sonic to pull the nuke).

I'm pretty sure I can safely say again that Lavos is utterly outclassed here.

The overall debate and the thread was great, but for the match itself this sounds almost the same as the Chronomon one over there to me - either Sonic stomps or wins with veeeeeery low diff. If it's stomp, close it.

If people still say it's legit... Count me for Sonic pulling a Silver here to Lavos and winning very low Diff.
 
Votes so far since Zach is no longer keeping track.

Lavos: 1 (The real cal howard)

Sonic: 9 (ShadowWarrior1999, FateAlbane, ShakeResounding, MYHERO, Schnee One, CrimsonStarFallen, Phoenix821, Christian Higdon, Genericstickman)
 
Could this really be added? Then again, Sonic had a worse chance against Chronomon than what Lavos has compared to Sonic. If this is deemed as a stomp, so should Sonic vs Chronomon.

But if it's all good, count me for Sonic as well.
 
I don't think Sonic's conceptual manipulation can affect Lavos due to the latter being nonexistent. Type 2 conceptual manipulation means manipulating concepts that shapes reality. Being nonexistent means you're completely outside of that reality and thus unaffected by the manipulation of the concept.
 
Being nonexistent does not at all mean that conceptual manipulation won't work on you.

Every Mid-Godly regenerator can come back from being erased from existence (thus becoming nonexistent) and conceptual manipulation bypasses it.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Being nonexistent does not at all mean that conceptual manipulation won't work on you.

Every Mid-Godly regenerator can come back from being erased from existence (thus becoming nonexistent) and conceptual manipulation bypasses it.
Click to expand...
That's not how it works. Sometimes Mid-Godly Regenerationn can mean regenerating from your mind, body and soul being destroyed without being completely erased from all of reality such as having your past, present and future remaining intact. Being nonexistent means every single aspect of your being completely denied from the entirety of reality.
 
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