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Sonic VS Lavos
- Thread starter ZacharyGrossman273
- Start date
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To holy manipalation? Don't know, but Sonic's was able to affect Enerjak.
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Strongest versions?
Before I say anything, does this mean we're considering Chrono Cross + Serge absorbed here?
Before I say anything, does this mean we're considering Chrono Cross + Serge absorbed here?
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- Thread starter
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Yes
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Holy moly.
Basic attacks from this Lavos are enough to nuke its other 2-A version then. Scale of Hax is pretty much the same. Note that it should be able to use the CC to nuke stuff from all existence + non-existence and re-unify time with a blunt "No." to it existing.
This unification of time is something that oneshotted the actual TD past all of its resistances, alters and acausality in one-go and it's not really that hard to pull. Also of note is that this version of TD was admiteddly going to nuke all of the actual Multiverse (including all of the deleted space-time of the timelines in the DBT) and then chill at all of existence's end, meaning the Multiverse being nuked isn't generally much of a problem for it.
Does Sonic have a counter to that or a means to nuke the TD in that scale before getting nuked himself?
Basic attacks from this Lavos are enough to nuke its other 2-A version then. Scale of Hax is pretty much the same. Note that it should be able to use the CC to nuke stuff from all existence + non-existence and re-unify time with a blunt "No." to it existing.
This unification of time is something that oneshotted the actual TD past all of its resistances, alters and acausality in one-go and it's not really that hard to pull. Also of note is that this version of TD was admiteddly going to nuke all of the actual Multiverse (including all of the deleted space-time of the timelines in the DBT) and then chill at all of existence's end, meaning the Multiverse being nuked isn't generally much of a problem for it.
Does Sonic have a counter to that or a means to nuke the TD in that scale before getting nuked himself?
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Also to point this out in advance, but "Busting the Multiverse nukes it" is actually a misconception.
When it was the DD which is very much below this key even if you consider its highest end, Schala was already going on about nuking all of existence and how no power (in-verse) could possibly defeat her+it head-on. To be noted is that this is right after Magus has just explained that said existence is an endless multiverse.
Belthasar notes that Consuming all things, all space-time continua and reducing it to nothingness is basically what's going to do. And he mentions he'll do it while nesting in the far-side of the dimensional void, which is the DBT, implying that all of existence here includes the deleted timelines as well. Since earlier on they quite literally nuke a non-existent place, that they have a term - Res Nullius - for "locations" that are denied of all existence, that the non-existent shadows of the CT party also note that everything will be gone as if they would be affected as well and that Belthasar's own dwelling place in the actual Multiverse is a space that does not-exist it goes without saying that the already deleted timelines in the DBT would be nuked/consumed as well.
Considering how the main reason they beat this thing by the end of the day was because Schala herselfgot a crush on Serge and kept foiling her/its own plans every now and then at crucial situations because she got a crush on Serge reasons. In fact, Schala manages to be simultaneously for and against the party as the main heroine of the game is the clone she made of herself while being simultaneously absorbed to help you out. Otherwise Chrono Cross wouldn't even exist as Serge would have drowned as a child before the game's proper history even starts (!), without Schala's clone time travelling to save him.
So unless Sonic's resistance to Absorption is on the scale of "resisting absorption of someone who can oneshot Lavos with it" here, yeaaaaah, him resisting it is not going to fly. And nuking the multiverse isn't inconveniencing it, it's like doing it a favor.
When it was the DD which is very much below this key even if you consider its highest end, Schala was already going on about nuking all of existence and how no power (in-verse) could possibly defeat her+it head-on. To be noted is that this is right after Magus has just explained that said existence is an endless multiverse.
Belthasar notes that Consuming all things, all space-time continua and reducing it to nothingness is basically what's going to do. And he mentions he'll do it while nesting in the far-side of the dimensional void, which is the DBT, implying that all of existence here includes the deleted timelines as well. Since earlier on they quite literally nuke a non-existent place, that they have a term - Res Nullius - for "locations" that are denied of all existence, that the non-existent shadows of the CT party also note that everything will be gone as if they would be affected as well and that Belthasar's own dwelling place in the actual Multiverse is a space that does not-exist it goes without saying that the already deleted timelines in the DBT would be nuked/consumed as well.
Considering how the main reason they beat this thing by the end of the day was because Schala herself
So unless Sonic's resistance to Absorption is on the scale of "resisting absorption of someone who can oneshot Lavos with it" here, yeaaaaah, him resisting it is not going to fly. And nuking the multiverse isn't inconveniencing it, it's like doing it a favor.
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As for the whole "Fate shows favoritism towards Sonic", Fate is unironically on Lavos' side as well since the game keeps talking about Fate or Time getting revenge for the party trying to change it, how the party of Chrono Trigger are "Prisoners of Fate/People Imprisoned by Destiny" (a fact that even granted the name to one of my favorite tracks from the game ).
The widely known game over screen from Trigger (But... The Future refused to change.) references this as well.
In Cross, Lucca outright states it's a matter of Cause and Effect and that despite there existing no absolutes or certainties in the world the future that was to be erased by their actions is going to be restored that the ruined future will be written back into reality , and that the future itself that they killed is getting revenge against them.
All their efforts were ultimately in vain.
And last but not least, the game acknowledges again that going against Lavos is going against Fate itself even more at the game over screen for Chrono Cross:
So they at best cancel each other out in this regard.
The widely known game over screen from Trigger (But... The Future refused to change.) references this as well.
In Cross, Lucca outright states it's a matter of Cause and Effect and that despite there existing no absolutes or certainties in the world the future that was to be erased by their actions is going to be restored that the ruined future will be written back into reality , and that the future itself that they killed is getting revenge against them.
All their efforts were ultimately in vain.
And last but not least, the game acknowledges again that going against Lavos is going against Fate itself even more at the game over screen for Chrono Cross:
So they at best cancel each other out in this regard.
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FateAlbane said:
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Really? I have no idea why was this match done, then. If Sonic is on SMT levels of 2-A, this match is basically a stomp. lol And your wording definitely implies that.ShadowWarrior1999 said:
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Well, not SMT level but still absolutely dwarfs baseline lol.
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You just said "Unfathomably" above baseline for the lower key and the higher one being "unquantifiably stronger". Not necessarily infinitely but it seems at least countlessly above baseline for his lower key and then even more countlessly above baseline to the next one. That sounds weeeeeeeell beyond not just Lavos but most 2-As out there in this site.
Sounds like stomp in the similar vein of a match against SMT (albeit to a lesser extent) unless we used High 2-A end for Lavos (which would in turn make this stomp for it instead). Thus stomp in either direction.
Sounds like stomp in the similar vein of a match against SMT (albeit to a lesser extent) unless we used High 2-A end for Lavos (which would in turn make this stomp for it instead). Thus stomp in either direction.
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Wow, I thought Lavos was enough of a hax machine yet you're saying Sonic stomps. OvO
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It's only temporal permanance. I'd argue 4 and 5 being better by far.The real cal howard said:
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@ShadowWarrior If he is as high in the 2-A scalling chain as you claimed he is, this is ultimately the same thing as if I threw myself against a Tier 3 character or something of the like, with said character having the power to bust my concept on a range that covers for all of my incarnations. Even if Lavos did have resistance to conceptual powers it wouldn't matter since the scale Sonic is doing it at is >>>>>>> than his by an immense margin. And you said Sonic needs a thought for it to be used on that scale, so.
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Sonic only dwarfs baseline in Ultra, @Fate, due to being stronger than Super Sonic. They're under the impression that there being a Dream world where every person creates a dream universe makes it doubtlessly above baseline instead of 2x baseline for there being one more infinite multiverse (no offense of course).
Sonic also only used the multiversal ranged conceptual erasure once ever.
Sonic also only used the multiversal ranged conceptual erasure once ever.
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@Cal If he is as immensely above baseline to the extent that was claimed, he stomps.
If not, Lavos very likely outhaxxes for reasons I explained above since in that case it's Sonic that gets a CC treatment with basically anything it decides to do.
If not, Lavos very likely outhaxxes for reasons I explained above since in that case it's Sonic that gets a CC treatment with basically anything it decides to do.
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I'm not questioning scaling, by the way. Just pointing my view on the general matter. Whether that's true or not is inconsequential to me since I'm just here for clarification on whatever ability Lavos may use or be faced with. I have no care whatsoever for the winner.
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My dude, even without Illumina, there's still Great Harmony. Just 14 Pre-Great Harmony Chaos Emeralds can perform a 2-A feat, then an innumerable amount of those were fused into a set of seven.The real cal howard said:
And of course a Super Emerald, which is what Ultra Sonic uses is superior to that.
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I'm being completely honest here, everything I've seen for Super Sonic has been 3x baseline for affecting Sonic's multiverse, Maginaryworld, and Mega Man's multiverse (and even then I think it was Mega Man himself that dealt with his own multiverse). Only other thing is the Great Harmony, but I haven't seen anything proving that Sonic got empowered by all those Emeralds and even if it was, that it was more than a one-time thing. Ultra Sonic's massively above that due to like, new forms.
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"then an innumerable amount of those were fused into a set of seven."
From what I read, they were only put in the Zone of Silence for the Great Harmony. I've read nothing about them fusing into one set.
From what I read, they were only put in the Zone of Silence for the Great Harmony. I've read nothing about them fusing into one set.
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The Super Genesis Wave (which uses the Chaos Emeralds) affected both Sonic's and Mega Man's multiverses.
Sonic let Mega Man fix his own.
Sonic let Mega Man fix his own.
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Just pointing this out but affecting two multiverses makes no actual difference since TD!Lavos influences both the Multiverse and its non-existent counterpart as a whole and would consume the entirety of both. Both being endless.
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Here.The real cal howard said:
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That's uh...very convincing. What issue?
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Sonic the Hedgehog issue #170.
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And a Panda was the end of the Big Fire aka Lavos. Maybe.
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Depends if this countless emeralds deal is from main or archie continuity tbh since cross-scaling between continuities isn't a thing (or is it? I've been away for a while now so who knows), we wouldn't be able to say that Ultra Chaos Emerald >>> Countless Emeralds same way we don't give MCU Thanos comic lvl stats.
Now is it from the same continuity?
Now is it from the same continuity?
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Archie. Just read up on it. He's telling the truth.
Granted, "countless" is this many
and your have to divide the result by 7 as it takes 7 to be 2-A.
Granted, "countless" is this many
and your have to divide the result by 7 as it takes 7 to be 2-A.
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The countless emeralds is exclusive to Archie.
Games always had just 7.
Games always had just 7.
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Understood. Then I dunno. You'd have to be a bit overspecific to get a set value to that and I know jack about Sonic's general story or scaling so I won't be the one to worry about defining a clear edge on this.
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So how far into 2-A is the TD Lavos?
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After the Kirby Buster, the lavos buster then?Saikou The Lewd King said:
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Hard to pin down. Massive scaling chains and stomping 44 2-As put it on Digimon's level before the infinite upgrade.
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So my guess is hundreds of times baseline.
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The thing should be pretty high in it, but only by everyday number standards. Hard to pinpoint exactly where though.
Nowhere near countless or infinitely level material but by what I know now the main point in the scaling isn't the whole 44 people cast, but that the Frozen Flame alone was already enough for Fodder Level people (and I do mean absolute Fodder. The human scientists of El Nido) to take control of all time and space of the infinite timelines by extracting a small portio of "the anti-annihilation energy associated with it".
It wasn't even the artifact per se, just extracting a bit of the power within and using it. And that was from when the TD was still starting to mature.
So basically an extract of a fragment that broke from Lavos when the thing was at its weakest in a spawn form had enough energy for a 2-A feat when used by human fodder (by the time of Chrono Cross).
Thus, by the time of Chrono Cross, a small part of the power of the smallest fragment of its being in its weakest form could perform a 2-A feat.
You throw on top of that the fact that it keeps growing in power as the series proceeds and it was close to maturing by the endgame. Then there's the CC which had enough power to oneshot the actual being, which in this key is absorbed thus adding that power to it as well. And Serge of course. And the Dragon God as a whole.
I have no idea how far above baseline this makes it. It should be solidly above it to laugh at baselinish, but certainly not enough to get any close to countless level matters or things of the like.
Nowhere near countless or infinitely level material but by what I know now the main point in the scaling isn't the whole 44 people cast, but that the Frozen Flame alone was already enough for Fodder Level people (and I do mean absolute Fodder. The human scientists of El Nido) to take control of all time and space of the infinite timelines by extracting a small portio of "the anti-annihilation energy associated with it".
It wasn't even the artifact per se, just extracting a bit of the power within and using it. And that was from when the TD was still starting to mature.
So basically an extract of a fragment that broke from Lavos when the thing was at its weakest in a spawn form had enough energy for a 2-A feat when used by human fodder (by the time of Chrono Cross).
Thus, by the time of Chrono Cross, a small part of the power of the smallest fragment of its being in its weakest form could perform a 2-A feat.
You throw on top of that the fact that it keeps growing in power as the series proceeds and it was close to maturing by the endgame. Then there's the CC which had enough power to oneshot the actual being, which in this key is absorbed thus adding that power to it as well. And Serge of course. And the Dragon God as a whole.
I have no idea how far above baseline this makes it. It should be solidly above it to laugh at baselinish, but certainly not enough to get any close to countless level matters or things of the like.
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Note: I meant "not enough" in the last line there. Just edited in so it should be fine now.
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Super Sonic is High dozens to low hundreds of times baseline. Ultra Sonic is essentially the SSJ2 to Super Sonic's SSJ1.
However many Emeralds you wanna guess is in that panel and divide it by seven is what you'll get.
However many Emeralds you wanna guess is in that panel and divide it by seven is what you'll get.
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I found an idea as to how many Chaos Emeralds there were in Great Harmony. There's a three issue minicomics series with Tails. In the third issue, the Green Chaos Emeralds rained down on Mobius, causing planet-wide extinctions and blotted out the sky, and this was only the green set of Chaos Emeralds.
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That scan shows hail falling, though, and just one Emerald. The things falling are all white and there's even a dinosaur who got one block of ice falling to his head.
"Chaos Emeralds" by itself could refer to the 7 usual ones. Do you have one where it shows the actual emeralds raining?
"Chaos Emeralds" by itself could refer to the 7 usual ones. Do you have one where it shows the actual emeralds raining?
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