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Sonic the Hedgehog: Super Forms Speed Upgrade

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Well, you need to ask other staff members then. I don't have the time to properly evaluate this myself.
 
Why do we always go "this thread has been rejected" when one admin disagrees, and admins that are listed as neutral in the verse list btw, not even supporters, with objectively wrong arguments, and then once we point that out we need to wait even more so that anything may happen because only certain people's oppinions matter, repeat this ad infinitum
 
Because the staff are supposed to act as a buffer against threads being swarmed by new accounts who want to boost their favourite characters or downgrade ones that they dislike out of spite, and who then get their way out of sheer numbers, and turn the entire wiki far more unreliable. It isn't a perfect system, but it is considerably less bad than the alternatives.
 
I am not against staff, far from it actualy, I agree that are extremely necessary for quality control, however ONE staff that is not even a supporter disagreeing for awful reasoning (no offense btw) for a thread to go back to square one (this has been going on for months) so that we can wait even more so that this can be repeated over and over again
 
The Staff are indeed very useful and reliable to not inflate or downplay verses, but, and that's a big but, they are HUMAN too. Meaning they aren't immune from making mistakes or having bad reasonings
 
I'm not a fan of the fact that the general idea isn't that there's a chance that you could be wrong, but that the people who are disagreeing with you are making piss poor arguments.
 
The real cal howard said:
I'm not a fan of the fact that the general idea isn't that there's a chance that you could be wrong, but that the people who are disagreeing with you are making piss poor arguments.
Click to expand...
Anyone can be wrong, the thing is tho making a calc to debunk this feat while said calc is using the reason why this fistly was rejected and gets 14m/s Super Sonic is a bad argument
 
Cal being mean and snarky on a Sonic thread? Yeah, big shocker.

How many times are we gonna have to go through the same song and dance? A conclusion is almost reached, a fallible staff member says no and makes a minute-baked argument as a response that leads nowhere, and back to square one we go. This almost reminds me of the NiGHTS thread.

Listen. I get the importance of staff members. But it seems like at the drop of a hat, a thread can be brought to a screeching halt because of the say of one person. Which is, quite frankly, extremely ridiculous and tiresome. Barely any staff wants to approach a thread of 350+ replies when half of it is filled with nonsense. I'll try to get more staff, but I make no promises at this rate tbh. I'll start asking.
 
I disagree with all arguments that are not related to the Exception not necessarily having to be at the edge of the universe such as stars passing by which is completely irrelevant.
 
Ultima themself, who was questioning the feat, blatantly mentioned that the developers of Sonic Rush will likely not be bothered to delve into this 5-D axis business. They only reasoned that it was wholly possible for it to be a thing. Therefore, we will take the path of least assumptions. If there are no forms of celestial bodies that they're passing, then it's like Mephistus said. There's nothing there, and if they were within the universe at any locatio then there would be.

I'm unsure if you're still pushing for that, your wording was a little vague. Apologies if not.
 
Well, I cannot help you out here. You need to ask other staff members for input.
 
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2820328#25 +that is a cinematic time arguement made by DDM which you can downplay nearly every character speed on this site that way to human levels of perception speed because otherwise how would humans react to play the game and control a faster than light character that has no other frame of reference of speed / time passing during said scene. The two pictures Cal posted are the same Exception, this is literally an absurd arguement because its self evident they are the same thing they arrive at.

Physical travel to a point where there are no celestial bodies and they start on Earth is quite simply a mftl+ feat due to flying outside their observable universe where no celestial objects are to be seen in outer space. The validity of making up headcanon like they flew inside of a rift / portal offscreen that got them there is another thing unfounded by simply watching the scene showing only normal flight during their travel. Its literally point A to point B unless directly proven otherwise because seriously, this is headcanon levels of describing what you think happened offscreen when simple flight was occuring. Might as well state they met a genie on the way into outer space and poofed them to there too.
 
Sorry if what I'm saying is only applicable to earlier parts of the thread, but;

There's no reason whatsoever to calc moving past the stars or whatever they are, let alone speculating if the animators of Sonic are going to get celestial bodies right in any way.

The feat is allegedly moving across the universe. Debate on that and don't drag other things in that don't matter please.
 
First of all, Mephistus was the one who brought up "Starry skies" as an argument. That's where the confusion came from. But the fact that, "those aren't stars" only makes the calculation even more arbitrary. If all we see is a blank background, then that just means absolutely nothing.

There are plenty of places in the universe with blank black backgrounds; you don't need to fly outside the Observable Universe to find one. The inside of a wormhole and there are plenty of those in the Milky Way Galaxy alone. But enough messing around.

Anyway, we cannot assume they just flew to the edge of the observable Universe in seconds based on a couple of vague statements and a couple of generic backgrounds with multiple time cuts in between. Also wasn't Tails able to see the distortion from Earth? But either way, flying "Outside the Universe" or "Beyond this Dimension" ect does not equate to flying outside the Observable Universe. I never was the default, and it never will be the default. Also, we don't know what's actually outside the Observable Universe as it could just be more galaxies for all we know. And the Universe' space could be Infinite for all was know.

The merging of two Universes has never had "The edge of the respective observable universes" as the assumed default. I've seen plenty of examples of having similar time cuts and blank backgrounds despite having starry skies in space normally and graphics capable of showing them. It still looks nothing but a bunch of baseless assumptions.

Also, Dargoo Faust and DontTalk have both made it clear that feats like this are unquantifiable for speed. And please don't use the Supporter/Neutral/Opponent fallacy. Saying that one has to be a die hard supporter to have the best sense of judgement is extremely arbitrary and don't need to explain why. And actually, AKM Sama said it's typically people who are Neutral who have the best sense of judgement regarding verses due to being more open-minded compared to supporters and opponents.

Also, I'm not the only one who disproves this feat. A lot of people offsite are talking to me saying this feat seems arbitrary. I will say, Matt already agrees with me as he has multiple times back when the blog still had comments but got removed due to creator changing their name. But as said before, it's only going through if other staff members and preferably ones knowledgable regarding multiversal and dimension feats look at it. DontTalk overall typically has the best sense of judgement. And as he said, 4-D space travel of unknown distance is the norm and not some high-balled 3D Space travel.
 
No, what that entails is that there are no celestial bodies where they are. It's up to you to prove they flew to somewhere within the universe if you're going against it. Which, quite frankly, can't be done.

Are you seriously saying flying outside the universe doesn't equate to flying outside of the universe? It doesn't matter what the "default" is here, it's case-by-case. I sincerely hope you aren't legitimately trying to speculate what's beyond the observable universe. Just stop. And there are no statements of Sonic's universe being infinite in size. Please stop this needless speculation.

I can guarantee you every othwr example you bring here is pointless. Stop trying to conform feats due to other similar feats. You're literally making the greatest assumptions within the entire thread.

Nobody used the Supporter/Neutral/Opponent argument, we were saying the arguments some people were using were shit. I couldn't care less about who's a supporter or opponent of the verse.

Quite frankly, treating this as a numbers game is getting tiring. I don't care about how many people agree with you about what, this isn't about how many people agree. This is about which argument makes the most sense. And none of your arguments are making any sense.
 
I'm not using the, "Flew somewhere within the Universe" they flew to the Exception. Which literally has no confirmed spot. It may say, "Outside this dimension" but that's a common flowery language that's often vague.

The contents outside the Universe isn't what matters. And the Universe can be flown outside of via many different methods. You don't need to be quadrillions of times faster than light, you just need dimensional travel. Which Sonic already has. This isn't needless speculation, it's the assumptions that "He flew this distance this fast" is the speculation.

I can debate however I needs to, it's my job. I'm not making a single assumption, I'm being very considerate; the exact opposite of assuming. You guys keep asking me to prove a negative. It's flying from Earth to the edge of the Universe is what requires a very specific statement.

Actually, TheUser789 did say, "I don't see why one person who isn't even a supporter matters that much." When I'm not the only staff member who argued against it. And he did use "Supporter" as an argument.

None of the arguments given to make make sense or backed up by any evidence. Where as I'm the only one actually following the new added rule. It isn't about numbers, but User keeps saying "One staff member" as an argument and that's also tiring.
 
How about "beyond this dimension", which does indeed blatantly mean beyond their universe? And before you argue, take a good look at how much this point has already been argued already alongside the very counterargument to it. Please don't repeat old points.

Yeah, still not buying this Dimensional Travel business when the universes are literally beginning to merge together. You keep repeating this argument yet it makes no sense. That in itself is speculation.

I don't really care how you debate unless it's continuously hindering the progress of the thread. I already told you, bring as many examples as you want. I guarantee you the majority will end up as a false equivalency and will simply be wasting posts. And let me tell you some different assumptions you've made so far. 1.) They're using dimensional travel. 2.) What they're flying past is stars. 3.) The universe could possibly be infinite. 4.) They're using some form of 4-D movement or whatever you spouted. I don't want to continue.

I didn't catch that. My apologies.

Again, my apologies. I didn't see that.
 
"Beyond this dimension" quite literally means outside the body of space, not just the outside the observable Universe actually. So in other words, it only further revolutionizes the idea that it's dimensional travel given such as feat is something not even Infinite speed characters can travel to it. But you do need dimensional travel to do it.

If the universes are being merged, wouldn't that technically mean both universes became one dimension like what's being implied? And furthermore, Exception appears to be stated to be "Beyond this dimension" even with the two universes. Implying it't still outside the body of space and would make the debate counter intuitive.

The 2nd example regarding that stars was just a calculation made just for fun , and based on a misunderstanding of what Mephistus said. The others are just considerations and not assumptions. But the dimensional travel and "4-D space travel" mean the same thing actually.
 
Again, we literally just see simply them flying during transit. Not warping between points or spaces even as they physically approach the Exception in a rush to save their universe.

What their destination looks like is enough evidence of the claim used in the calculation.
 
And we don't see how long it took them, and Dimensional travel can still visually appear physical since it's still physical flight but more non-linear.
 
8 seconds via on-screen. There's zero reason to even assume a timeframe past a year given we know chronologically Sonic's age. You've already conceeded the travel appears physical so...that's really all we are given via whats shown and all i have to say about that. Anything assuming warping or genies or wormholes is outright speculation.
 
Except, the "Physical distance" still isn't assumed to be 46.5 Lightyears. It's once again the equivalent of calling the Dollorean Immeasurable speed because it "Physically traveled through time". And the existence of an additional spatial dimension that allows those to travel outside the body of space without needing to travel at such speed isn't speculative so much as assuming no time skip happened.

Also, apparently Exception is visible from Earth.
 
The claim that dimensional barriers were jumped during transition is not given via the raw visuals. There is no warping as shown by your time travelling car example since at all points they are shown moving physically between spots as approaching their destination. As already given, them leaving the 3-D axis is not something to be assumed outside of mere physical travel outside the matter/galaxies contained in the observable universe. The speculation is entirely on something going on past what we can simply observe.

Great? There's zero reason that the object can't be bright/big enough to be seen from Earth and still be outside their observable universe. Hell, if anything shows that they stayed on the 3-D plane to arrive there.
 
But if it's visible on Earth; that makes the "beyond the edge of the Universe" thing even less believable. And it's a "Tear in the space time continuum" that's a synonym for the "Rift" that you guys have so often asked me about. So it's a tear between dimensions which I already explained above can have variable starting distances. Also, the background was black even as Sonic and Blaze were using their Emeralds despite being on solid ground and doubt their base forms flew out the Observable Universe before those transformations.

Anyway, going to sleep for now.
 
There's no reason why Exception can't be observed from the Earth and be beyond the radius of the physical universe if its bright/big enough. Its beyond Earth as seen during the transit and observed on the 3-D plane where they would fly towards. So there is no "rift" citation that pointedly explains that it exists in their observable universe and not outside the physical universe as can be seen by simply by the visuals of the destination showing it is outside the physical universe? Great. Confirmed that its never called a rift in game nor ever will be.

Again the cinematic blackening out of around them during the transformation scene prior discredits nothing as the proof given is the second scene right after; the transition to Exception is the proof we have repeatedly given of the black background with zero stellar or galactic objects visible as they approach which is evidence enough of the claim made in the calculation when we know the Exception is in outer space at least beyond Earth. The destination visual does matter when it 100% lends to them physically flying away and leaving the observable universe when we see no sorts of celestial objects in the vicinity of Exception during transit (and when they arrive its still surrounded by blackness) by physically flying to it to prove they were still within their observable universe. Shake already pointed this out to Cal a hundred or more posts above, this is literally repeated.
 
I still stand by the fact someone who is "Neutral' shouldn't be the end all of everything, I don't give a **** if someone offsite said they have the best stances, because having the end of all oppinions when they are usualy against any upgrade, they are not "open minded", otherwise they wouldn't go in a thread thinking of disagreeing

So yes, neutral shouldn't be more important than supporters, because it shows they don't care about the series, Sonic is one of the only franchises where we need to base every thread by people who dislike the franchise or the fans of it
 
Also there's alot of assumptions here

First being seen from the Earth means absolutely nothing because we can literaly see other galaxies from Earth

Second you are forgetting Blaze and Sonic went separate ways to go back, implying they are in the right and left planes, so they are not beyond "a body of space", stop making extremely shitty comparassions

Thirdly Shake literaly linked the thread with the new standards, you are not the only one who makes sense, "saving" the thread, they were brought before you arrived, so I keep my ONE staff thing, because it is true
 
I highly disagree with the idea that people who are fans have more input than people who aren't.

Threads should have nothing to do with who does or doesn't support a verse because supporting it is just having an opinion, and opinions mean nothing to who's arguing better.

That said, there's zero reason to argue about it.
 
So someone asked me to take a look

For

  • There are no celestial bodies
I do not believe this is reliable enough to assume that they have left the universe, even if it isn't a transitional scene. I feel like the writers do not necessarily mean to show the message that they left the universe.

  • Beyond the dimension
Well idk the context (there's a counterargument that it was said after the fight), but if this is true I guess it could be fine if it's not contradicted.

  • Flung in opposite directions
I am not sure how this implies they left the universe.

Against

  • Teleportation
This isn't visibly shown or implied, so I disagree with this argument.

  • Rift
Seems too vague and isn't a good enough argument. Plus it might not even be canon.

  • Amusement park
Already debunked I believe.

  • Calculated before
That's got to be the dumbest argument in the whole thread. That is irrelevant.

  • Universe merging
I am not knowledgeable about this verse, so I'm not going to comment on this as I'm not sure what it means tbh.

  • Leaving the universe is transitional
Already debunked.

  • Unquantifiable
Already debunked.

  • Graphics bad
Already debunked.

My Verdict
Both sides seem to have pretty terrible arguments that either make no sense or are too vague, especially the "Against" side. Despite the "For" side having slightly better arguments, I feel like the evidence is not sufficient enough, and we should probably use lower assumptions for the feat. Although if there is more evidence for "For", feel free to correct me as I am not knowledgeable about this verse/feat at all.
 
Truth Bullets said:
I highly disagree with the idea that people who are fans have more input than people who aren't.

Threads should have nothing to do with who does or doesn't support a verse because supporting it is just having an opinion, and opinions mean nothing to who's arguing better.

That said, there's zero reason to argue about it.
Click to expand...
I agree, however my problem is that we only base it around people who dislike it, we barely have any actual supporters commenting
 
>Flung in opposite directions I am not sure how this implies they left the universe

This is the argument for the merge being at the edge, or in a 3d plane, because that means they were in the right/left plane

>Beyond the dimension Well idk the context (there's a counterargument that it was said after the fight), but if this is true I guess it could be fine if it's not contradicted

It was 100% said before the fight
 
>There are no celestial bodies, I feel like the writers do not necessarily mean to show the message that they left the universe.

The authorial intent here can be easily argued as what the characters see which is a fictional, bright tear in space far away from their planet Earth which has a celestial sky surrounding it and the cosmology is a stated universe. The location is ruled by you that it was travelled to by physical means so if its not surrounded by celestial objects bar the one light they fly away from and the sky is a literal void as they approach said object, the logical conclusion here is they travelled outside the physical celestial expanse that was surrounding their planet they started on. Where exactly are they ending up via physically travelling if not beyond the celestial bodies in their sky??

Another point is that one can easily interpret the "dimension" as what is simply within the known "space" containing all matter in the observable universe, not that its an adjacent wholly other dimension outside of this local space which would be on a 4-D plane, and that moving past that point at the edge of the observable universe would still be """beyond this dimension""" without actually transcending it to higher / different 4-D dimensions. The case would be moving into a completely different "three dimensional space" as it were with still being traversed on the same 3-D plane which they begin o. Which is wholly supported and substantiated by context of the objective visual of them physically going to a location without a celestial sky surrounding them.
 
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