Sonic the Hedgehog: Super Forms Speed Upgrade

[ShakeResounding]

Never said they do.

I'm looking at what makes sense. There would not be a lone nebula with pure vacancy around it for lightyears to come. You're making the large assumption in somehow thinking that makes sense. They literally rise from darkness (as we see literally nothing else except some sparkles), fly past darkness, and the only visible light you see is from that thing. Which, if you're aware of what space looks like, literally cannot be a nebula due to this. We see them approach it, and then whaddya know. They're at The Exception.

 

[ShakeResounding]

If you want, you two, we can take this to Discord and settle it out in front of our peers.

In Versus Central? Yeah, pass.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

There is no need to take this to discord guys.

 

[Theuser789]

Then please explain to me how a purple circle and an orange line look the same.

Because one is far away while in the other it's right there, just like our own Sun looks like a small yellow ball but in close looks like fiery orange

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Fine. Then I'll leave this conversation again and let other people (who don't have a motive to get this pushed or denied like you or me) decide again. Because right now, Ultima, DDM, Elizhaa, and myself still disagree and again, find this to be a stretch. Seriously, it shouldn't be hard to find something saying "The Exception is at the outside the universe" if it's so blatant, as you're claiming.

Also, as usual, nothing personal. We're still down for golf on Saturday after this, right?

 

[Theuser789]

Elizha is "iffy", not against it, and Ultima just asked questions and DDM hasn't even commented on this thread

Shake kinda has, I really don't see why we should keep waiting forever

 

[ShakeResounding]

Ultima is also the same person who said that the glittery effect in the cutscenes of Super Sonic and Burning Blaze are stars, which is why Ultima believes there was nothing to imply The Exception being seperate from the universe. News flash, Cal, that very assumption is what got the previous calc of this feat denied.

That's what I had to say about Ultima

DDM is pegging it as Dimension Travel. I'm not one to dismiss a staff member's word, but really? You're counting that despite Sonic being able to physically traverse between universes? Yeah, because that's likely.

Elizhaa isn't against it anymore, he's more of a neutral party as it currently stands. If you could stop trying to twist it, that would be much appreciated.

So no, Cal, it's really only you as a Staff who denies it and actually has a good argument for it. Which in itself is questionable, as you basically just repeated your arguments from a few weeks ago except not it's a few weeks later. Thanks

You wouldn't like what I have to say about why you guys don't see it as a clear-cut feat so I'm not gonna say it. What I can say at the least is that it's just blatant ignorance towards context.

 

[Antvasima]

If 4 administrators disagree, this can obviously not be applied. We should probably close the thread.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Actually, it seems like two of them are neutral, so the thread is inconclusive at the moment.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Jesus it's like nobody listens

What Julian said. Not only that, but one of the staff that disagrees has a poor argument and has yet to step foot in the thread. I don't care if you're a staff member or a regular member, if your argument is unfounded then it likely shouldn't even be counted.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, with this much uncertainty, I do not think that we can apply this change in any case.

 

[Truth_Bullets]

Ant. You realize that no matter what, some people are just going to disagree, right? There's always gonna be uncertainty, just let people come to a conclusion.

"Fine. Then I'll leave this conversation again and let other people (who don't have a motive to get this pushed or denied like you or me) decide again."

Yikes. You see, Cal is literally just leaving and hoping people will come in and disagree to play off of the "dependent on admins" rule. Since when does admin word make it correct? Denial doesn't mean anything if you don't push your points.

 

[ShakeResounding]

What Truth said is 1000% correct. If we waited for agreement to come from everyone, or if we simply let skepticism of a feat stop a thread, the majority of CRTs wouldn't get accepted.

Cal came in, repeated the majority of what he said from last time, and for some reason the thread is once again put on a hiatus when the reality is that nothing has changed whatsoever. All that's changed is one person's involvement suddenly flipping the outcome. No offense to him, but he's done nothing to advance the thread except take up more posts.

 

[Mephistus]

I am very much for this upgrade still even after reading over newer posts.

As someone that has a very hard skepticism about some speed feats on this site...this is as objective as they come.

This is about as silly as arguing Kirby's Warp Star warped to a location for a speed feat when its shown to be physically arriving from off-screen instead of warping on the spot at said locatio.

The finishing arrival shows them physically travelling to that spot and starting travel by flying. We even see them during the middle of transit by flying as pointed even out by Cal/Fox. There's no room for explainations that discredit the feat other than making up unfounded headcanon things that happened off-screen like they *somehow* found a *convienient* flipping portal from out of nowhere in outer space or wherever that *magically* got them there at the perfect spot close to Exception.

The extraordinary claim here is that they used some sort of dimensional travel, not that they used simple physical travel as per all the visuals show as even during transit they don't teleport in a blink to the spot they were looking right at to get to and instead fly toward there.

As there is zero direct evidence that suggests they used any form of cheating during to travel this distance to arrive where they were outside of what we directly see as them merely flying around?

I am still strongly convinced that this location is an observable universe away from where they started from due to how everything in the sky appears as a literal black void except Exception and the spot they fly away from which is NOT possible if you fly around and travel to anywhere within our observable universe you'd still see numerous stellar, galactic bodies, etc.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, there was a legit rule on the speed page added, and it goes like this.

Furthermore, speed isn't defined by any number of spatial dimensions but simply distance over time. Meaning that it is possible for 1-dimensional characters to be faster than those who cover many dimensions. And the distance between two timelines is defined as the 5th dimension (Or a 4th spatial dimension) that separates two or more universes. Said distance is often unknown as it could be anywhere between much smaller than the Universal radius and infinite. But such details are only known to those who can travel through additional spatial dimensions. For that reason, crossing Universes is unquantifiable for speed unless details are specifically stated.

The problem with this calculation or assuming traveling outside the universe/dimension via sheer flight is the equivalent of people assuming people always need to be capable of traveling 93 light years east or west before it can move even a single hair north or south. Or another 93 light years on the 2nd dimension before it can raise or lower on the 3rd dimension. You don't need the speed to travel at the edge of the Universe in a short time to travel to other universes in the same time frame. All you need is just 4-dimensional levels of space travel. this image that Green snifter listed pretty much explains it best.

Anyway, the 5th dimension or 4th spatial dimension whichever you prefer to call it. Which is the dimensional barrier that separates two or more space-time continuums. And it's a completely unknown distance that cannot be visually seen by our 3-dimensional eyes. However, it could be anywhere between a few inches, to infinite. But it's not a norm to assume the distance is greater than the Observable Universes diameter. Also, the fact that the Universes was already a primary plot point as addressed in the beginning of the game, that only further implies the feat is less validated and more high-balled. Because the 5th dimensional gap would be constantly shrinking and already smaller than the Earth to edge of the universe radius to begin with.

2nd, in the opening cut-scene literally does kind of reveal that Blaze has indeed teleported to Sonic's world. Note, it's not teleportation, but it is an Unknow distance that cannot be properly calculated. I've said before that I'm not familiar with the context of Kirby's feat, but that may be unquantifable unless there's more context.

And this point was not debunked, because it was attempted to argue against before the rules were laid out. But now that the rules are in place, to accept this feat it to literally go against every single word of the additional rule.

However, I think we should ask more staff members first. I know Cal has left and isn't wanting to come back. And that Matt will also agree with me, but I could ask AKM Sama, since he's very open-minded, has a great sense of judgement regarding verses he's neutral towards.

 

[Mephistus]

Sonic flies to places in 3-D terms when he's super, be it from to the upper orbit of his planet, to the moon, to the nebula at Nonaggression zone. None of that gets this silly 4-D or 5-D travel specifications nor this presumption that he teleported there via some unknown means that we have to needlessly speculate about when we simply see him fly away to and arrive by flying at the place on screen. The physical travel is simply what we see as per his movement and the character's own dimensionality being 3-D via his movement in most all other cases. The physical universe is what he is assumed to be travelling within as he starts there on Earth and out of via raw visuals supporting that notion, which frankly has not been debunked and completely breaks apart any notion that such a stretched 4-D or 5-D movement interpretation is happening.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's not always how it works, one can travel in 3D space and then to 4D space. And Rifts that exist via the merging of two universes nor the starting spot of each universe really have a definitive starting point. Which still goes against the point, you don't assume it magically transforms into a Quilted multiverse when two or more universes get merged.

Also, wasn't the feat performed by 2-C Sonic? That wouldn't quite scale to anyone less than 2-C anyway if that's the case.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Yes, the feat was done by 2-C Super Sonic and Burning Blaze at their peak. So even if I agree with this, I only do because it would scale to the God Tiers.

 

[ShakeResounding]

When universes are getting merged, it kinda is becoming quilted. Not the multiverse as a whole, as that's unfounded, but those two universes are definitively becoming quilted. Connected. However you'd prefer to call it

Then it's just a higher-end MFTL+ feat. The Chaos Emeralds fluctuate for a reason.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not really, MK Vs DC didn't become a Quilted multiverse. And not quilted as in there's another Earth that's hundreds of billions or more light years away. It's just one Universe's Earth fuses with the other universe's Earth. Same with their Venuses and Mars'. Still, there was never an Occam's Razor about the edges of the universes being a default upon the merging of two universes.

Also, AKM Sama said he's going to check.

 

[Mephistus]

That is what Sonic is seen dimensionally moving around by in general barring maginaryworld's 4th dimension fly through and solaris fight being chronological movement, even in those instances of its directly spoonfed, which we are not given here, that something is occuring beyond 3-D terms regarding the character's own movement.

Also, where's that Sonicwiki source stating the rift / Exception exists within their observable universe? Or it even being called a rift for that matter. You brought it up on the blog and ducked so let's hear it.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Entirely seperate circumstances tbh. That's just a flat out false equivalency.

Look at the big empty void of space. You don't see anything that you would see within outer space except for an empty void. If it was within a random point in the universe and not at the edges, you would see celestial bodies. Instead, you get nothing because The Exception has yet to breach into Sonic's universe enough to cause damage

 

[ShakeResounding]

Also, where's that Sonicwiki source stating the rift exists within their universe? Or it even being called a rift for that matter.

This is exactly my point.

It is never called a rift within the game. Anywhere. Ever.

I was using the term for simplicity. I went over this for over 15 discussion posts a while ago. Don't make me repeat this argument over something that doesn't exist.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Visionary background doesn't matter, and it doesn't matter if whether or not it's within or outside his Universe. In fact, if it's outside his Universe, it only proves that he would have to use 4 dimensional space travel as even characters with Infinite speed cannot do so via 3-D space travel.

And it's not false equivalency, that's how nearly ever Universe merging feat is as a norm.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Visionary background absolutely 100% matters here, DDM. Saying otherwise is egregious and makes you look like you're cherrypicking the feat. Also, hey, Secret Rings? The game that establishes that Sonic can physically travel between universes?

I'm starting to repeat arguments here. Again

 

[Mephistus]

The visionary background does matter because it shows they had left the physical observable universe eg beyond the celestial bodies that are contained within 3-D space. It does matter what the background looks like when they are physically travelling to this location in no uncertain terms as 3-D beings. Still waiting on that sauce.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, he can physically travel across Universes, but once again, you don't need to be fast enough to travel from the Earth to the edge of the Universe to do that. Flying from an area that has a starry sky to an area with a black background means nothing, it just means he flew into space then started to do fly to an unknown location. It's no many other assumed feats that get rejected all the time.

I've literally seen the video, I didn't seen any sort of inter-galactic space-travel. All I saw was some things that didn't even look like stars on a poor quality background. If the game had better graphics, it would looks a little something more like this.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

This is STILL going on? You Sonic fans sure are persistent, I'll give ya that.

Anyways still disagree, and both sides are likely to repeat arguments because as I said before: Either side's interpretation here have about as much supporting them as the other.

This shouldn't have gone on so long because it's the same arguments over and over.

But whatever.

 

[Mephistus]

Yes, you clearly do need to be that fast as a 3-D being accomplishing that feat.

A physical 3-D being flying, within our universe, over to a location that has zero galactic or stellar objects within the outer space sky aka showing only black sky devoid of of the celestial expanse means you left the observable universe in order to accomplish that. That is a fact, it is not unknown. You can see celestial objects literally millions of light years away or more in the sky with your naked eyes irl. Regardless, if they flew and still were in the observable universe you'd still see the location surrounded by stars. The scene transition is straightforward. Leaving the 3-D plane is not being suggested here based on anything beyond we presume how a 3-D being travels. Kirby's warp star (a vehicle with porting capabilities along with allowing conventional 3-D movement over cosmic sized distances) feat is literally how transparently that you can assume no teleportation shenanigins were occuring because otherwise you assume past what is simply shown to you. You can continue travelling in outer space past where the observable universe ends on the 3-D axis. Other speed feats might not have the same context, but we are discussing this one which is quite objectively MFTL+.

That distance traversed is the radius of the observable universe as simply used in the calculation as what would logically apply in that scenario.

We don't and won't assume 5-D or 4-D travel for Super Sonic's other physical travel feats on his interstellar or lunar distances he's travelled before that have accepted calculations when it is simple 3-D movement as per his 3-D physiology nor assume for obvious downplay that there was some magical assistance by a portal or use of teleportation or higher dimensional movement without ANYTHING contextual suggesting it like when they fought Solaris, a being existing throughout all time, so when that assumption that they simply flew to there in 3-D terms is what is self-evident upon them leaving, and most obvious of all arriving by simply flying to there. This is needlessly overcomplicating something that is a simple flight feat over a quantifiable distance.

Those sparkles are not stars nor does a clip from Kid Icarus have relevance here. The game can show stars just fine with its graphics , so again, they left their observable universe via normal 3-D terms per the scene simply showing flight into outer space to Exception starting on their planet Earth.

 

[Theuser789]

I've literally seen the video, I didn't seen any sort of inter-galactic space-travel. All I saw was some things that didn't even look like stars on a poor quality background. If the game had better graphics, it would looks a little something more like this.

This is literaly headcanon without any sort of actual proof "this would look like a video game I like instead of the supporters arguments because the graphics are """"bad"""""

First thing first Rush does not have bad graphics, you can clearly see what is actualy going in the game, like wat

Second I don't see why we need to wait even more just so you can call even more staff, at this point, no offense to anyone, the opposition is just stonewalling so they can call their friends so they can reject this, even if not true this is what it feels like, since no one calls someone neither knows, it's always the same people

 

[Theuser789]

Also this is a MFTL feat, we don't scale the emeralds AP to speed otherwise Sonic would be immesurable in this fight, so either this applys to MFTL in general or Sonic was immesurable in this fight

 

[AlexZiggy]

I too agree with the proposed changes. Regarding the objection that there was more then simple 3-D movement involved, I'd say, as others before me have aswell, that it requires a myriad of assumptions which although possible, are not supported by visuals. And with all due respect I do not agree with the notion that the visuals don't matter, as the featapp in question happened in a videogame, a visual medium, thus disregarding what is shown does not seem like a valid rebuttal to me. And yes, the quality may not be the best, but if those aren't distant stars, what could those bright spots be? Just some cool special effects? If so, why? Why, when the developers could have chosen a much more colourful environment which would, at least to me, be far more visually appealing, would they pick a black background with nothing but some lights sparkling. Knowing the context of the situation, ie the ongoing merging of the universes, why would we not take it as stars?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

You guys are still relying on way too heavy assumptions; in fact, if you calculated how fast the stars are scrolling using and used ang sizing, I doubt it would even reach FTL. In fact, I can calculate the visual travel speed based on perception right now.

Using this tool, we see a close star travel from top to bottom from 0:36:70 to 0:36:80. So the stars scroll 90x their diameter per second on average. Assuming Sun's diameter for average sake, that's 1,391,000,000 m * 90 = 125,190,000,000 m/s and around 417.588890778567 times the speed of light.


But wait, I still need to ang size this. The width is 1/9th times the size height of the screen, which gives it 8.93335098547 degrees. Plugging the width of the star and that into this calculator means they were 8.9034 * 10*9 meters away from the camera. And in order for the stars to scroll that fast visually, they would only need to be traveling 125,190,000,000 / (8.9034 * 10^9) = 14.0609205472 m/s though space for such visionaries to happen. Do you notice that stars actually do scroll in the background as you fly an airplane at night?

 

[Theuser789]

DDM, haven't you learned a thing? The old calc was rejected because it assumed those were stars and did a similar calc

You complain that we are making assumptions, but this is literaly why it was originaly rejected

Just wow

 

[ShakeResounding]

The old calc was rejected because it assumed those were stars.

Those aren't stars. That was agreed upon years ago when this feat was calculated by a staff member and rejected before because of the very assumption you just made. You say that we're relying on assumptions, but you literally just brought up a wrong assumption.

 

[Theuser789]

Like, the new calc isn't even about calcing how fast the background was moving but how fast they travelled to point A to B, and here you come doing the same thing the old calc was rejected for to get below FTL results

 

[ShakeResounding]

@Ziggy Assuming those are stars actually hurts the calc because that means it's in the universe somewhere, but additionally makes no sense in the context of the feat. Stars wouldn't be outside of the universe since, well, it's outside of the universe. Also it's already been agreed that those aren't stars.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like this has been rejected by Medeus, but you can ask several other administrators to comment here as well if you wish.

 

[00potato]

Are we really just stopping this because one guy doesn't like it? Nobody here seems to agree with him anyway.

Pathetic.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Rejected on, and excuse my language, piss poor arguments. He's using assumptions that got the previous calc denied to try and debunk this one. Sorry, Ant, but not everything stops because a staff member said no with terrible reasons.

@00potato Please keep a leveled-head, we don't need a air of animosity