Sonic Shuffle conclusion + 06 revision

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Power Of The Stars is most certainly 2-B aswell,it seperates & sustains the existence of parallel dimensions in general,not just Sonic's & Blaze's.

This thread is already contentious enough already, let's just stick to the main topic (aka Solaris and the super hedgehog trio being scaled to Illumina).

 

[DMB_1]

Also, question, why is Illumina immeasurable with no justification for it?

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

No, I am choosing to use common sense. Solaris's core having 2-C durability when he can destroy a 2-B multiverse with sheer power makes no sense, unless you want to assume his core would somehow get destroyed in the process.

The core is the center of his being, the actual soul/conscious. It doesn't have to have set durability, it's the fact they target something that's the essence of his being that makes it vulnerable rather than the body itself. It's outright called an Achilles Heel. Read up on the Achilles page because you literally have not made a single decent refute against what has been said rather than dismissing it all as illogical.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

So can we rate Achilles heel 9-B with the logic I'm hearing?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

The core is the center of his being, the actual soul/conscious. It doesn't have to have set durability, it's the fact they target something that's the essence of his being that makes it vulnerable rather than the body itself. It's outright called an Achilles Heel. Read up on the Achilles page because you literally have not made a single decent refute against what has been said rather than dismissing it all as illogical.

Which makes it not physically weaker than the rest of his body. It's a weak spot because it contains his consciousness which can be destroyed by targeting it.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Which makes it not physically weaker than the rest of his body. It's a weak spot because it contains his consciousness which can be destroyed by targeting it.

You outright just admitted I was right. You realize souls don't have durability at all, right? Hence why Sonic was given Non-Physical Interaction in the first place because it was agreed it was Solaris' soul. You unironically admitted you were wrong on the point and just don't understand what's being argued at this point. I think it's safe to conclude at this point Super Forms don't scale to Second Form Solaris at least, I'll give my reasoning against First later.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Logically, if Solaris was destroying the multiverse, it would need to have the durabulity to survive said destruction. There'd be no point in being restored into Solaris if it would die from it's own destruction anyways.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Logically, if Solaris was destroying the multiverse, it would need to have the durabulity to survive said destruction. There'd be no point in being restored into Solaris if it would die from it's own destruction anyways.

For the last time, nobody is stating the core has lower durability at this point. It's literally the fact that's his soul they're targeting which doesn't have durability, it would be them damaging him spiritually and not physically, they wouldn't scale.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

You outright just admitted I was right. You realize souls don't have durability at all, right? Hence why Sonic was given Non-Physical Interaction in the first place because it was agreed it was Solaris' soul. You unironically admitted you were wrong on the point and just don't understand what's being argued at this point. I think it's safe to conclude at this point Super Forms don't scale to Second Form Solaris at least, I'll give my reasoning against First later.

Nope. Non-physical interaction by itself doesn't bypass durability. It just allows you to hit non-corporeals/intangibles. Sonic, Shadow, and Silver would also still need to have 2-B durability to withstand getting hit by Solaris's attacks, otherwise they're dead.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

So a soul has durability shadow?

 

[Elizhaa]

Soul, Ghosts, and Non-corporeal beings, for example, do have durability in fictions, They are just normally intangible in most verses

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Nope. Non-physical interaction by itself doesn't bypass durability. It just allows you to hit non-corporeals/intangibles. Sonic, Shadow, and Silver would also still need to have 2-B durability to withstand getting hit by Solaris's attacks, otherwise they're dead.

K, so the reason he is unphased by said attacks would be because of canonical Invulnerability. And if there was reasoning against them scaling AP wise, this would be disregarded as an outlier regardless.

You didn't address my point either, you agree it's a soul obviously as you admit it's non-physical interaction. Now, what part about "they were damaging him spiritually which doesn't scale to physical AP since it's not them targetting his actual body, rather the essence of his being " do you not understand?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Soul, Ghosts, and Non-corporeal beings, for example, do have durability in fictions, They are just normally intangible in most verses

Um.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

I just want to say as well, I agree with Solaris being 2-B, the reasoning is good and I agree the upgrade should go through to him.

Immeasurable speed, I'm neutral on. That can be dependent on this Solaris discussion goes down is Super forms scale to him or not, but I would be fine if they got Immeasurable at least from still reacting and fighting him.

The only thing I'm opposed to is the Super forms scaling to Solaris AP and Dura wise, everything else would be fine though.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

K, so the reason he is unphased by said attacks would be because of canonical Invulnerability. And if there was reasoning against them scaling AP wise, this would be disregarded as an outlier regardless.

You didn't address my point either, you agree it's a soul obviously as you admit it's non-physical interaction. Now, what part about "they were damaging him spiritually which doesn't scale to physical AP since it's not them targetting his actual body, rather the essence of his being " do you not understand?

The fact that they destroy his armor in Phase 1, and they aren't one-shotted by Solaris's attacks.

 

[The_Smashor]

The Super Forms should scale to Solaris because the emeralds very greatly in power. There's literally no reason for them not to. They damage Solaris' armor and damage it to the point that it has to pull out a new form.

 

[Wokistan]

Sounds can have durability. Look at Kirby, or the Destiny Hive Gods, or everyone in Bleach. Even if this "core" is a soul, it's blatantly a physical object that they're hitting. It makes a smack when Sonic Rams it.

Also nobody seems to have countered that they can damage the other parts anyways.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

The fact that they destroy his armor in Phase 1, and they aren't one-shotted by Solaris's attacks.

Okay but I never brought up Phase 1, I said I would cover my problems with it later. And again, that's literal due to Invulnerability, there's nothing else to it. And since you've stopped arguing on Phase 2 points, I can take this as you agreeing they don't scale to that form specifically but we'll get to Phase 1 later.

 

[Wokistan]

Also, when was it agreed that this core is a soul? I can't think of anything that would indicate that.

 

[The_Smashor]

Yeah. It's just it's conciosness. And it's still part of it's body. It has 2-B durability. The super hedgehogs damage it. What's the discussion here? Are people still on a high from when they removed 4-A Super Sonic?

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Sounds can have durability. Look at Kirby, or the Destiny Hive Gods, or everyone in Bleach. Even if this "core" is a soul, it's blatantly a physical object that they're hitting. It makes a smack when Sonic Rams it.
Also nobody seems to have countered that they can damage the other parts anyways.

I've already explained, damaging someone spiritually isn't the same as physically, they do not scale to Attack Potency. It making a sound as they ram into it is not good reasoning for it to be a physical object, especially when it has been agreed upon that it's Non-Physical Interaction to harm it.

 

[Elizhaa]

Non-physical interaction does not bypasses durability; it is just allow one to interact, or damage intangible beings

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Going from the reasoning I've seen most of the consensus is for Solaris to be upgraded to 2-B.

The direction of the thread seems to be heading; Solaris: 2-B and the super hedgehogs: 2-C possibly 2-B from the looks of it but we haven't heard Sera's input as well as others tho.

 

[The_Smashor]

Non-Physical Interaction still dosn't ignore durability.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Inverted Tempest No because they still can take Phase 2's attacks without dying in one hit.

@Wokistan Consciousness would be his mind rather than a soul.

 

[DMB_1]

Non-Physical Interaction =/= Soul Manipulation and vice-versa.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Yeah. It's just it's conciosness. And it's still part of it's body. It has 2-B durability. The super hedgehogs damage it. What's the discussion here? Are people still on a high from when they removed 4-A Super Sonic?

Consciousness can have many implied meanings, but something along the lines of the soul would still work in the context. They literally state they can't stop his form, they have to do so by targetting his consciousness. That in of itself + the Achilles Heel thing would discredit it having the same durability, we've been over this and ShadowWarrior practically went silent on this point after he realized he was incorrect.

 

[The_Smashor]

They don't die instantly from it's attacks and threatened it enough for it to bring out that form to begin with.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Non-Physical Interaction still dosn't ignore durability.

Targetting someone on a spiritual level to the essence of their being does though.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Non-Physical Interaction =/= Soul Manipulation and vice-versa.

That legitimately wouldn't change them interacting with the core as the essence of Solaris's being.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I really tire of the argument that "Variable" means outliers can't exist. It's asinine and I've actually heard it used that if Super Sonic had a tier 1 feat, it wouldn't be an outlier because lolvariable.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

They don't die instantly from it's attacks and threatened it enough for it to bring out that form to begin with.

Already explained this is done via Invulnerability, ever heard of it? And I've not covered first form problems yet because everyone is fixating on this singular point and preventing it from being covered.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Consciousness can have many implied meanings, but something along the lines of the soul would still work in the context. They literally state they can't stop his form, they have to do so by targetting his consciousness. That in of itself + the Achilles Heel thing would discredit it having the same durability, we've been over this and ShadowWarrior practically went silent on this point after he realized he was incorrect.

"For the last time, nobody is stating the core has lower durability at this point"

You just contradicted yourself there.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

"For the last time, nobody is stating the core has lower durability at this point"

You just contradicted yourself there.

No, I'm appealing to what's being argued now, I still stand by what I said but arguing in favor if people are trying to change the subject. Even if I were to have "contradicted" myself, that doesn't devalue the notion again since people are trying to shift it away from what I originally argued.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Already explained this is done via Invulnerability, ever heard of it? And I've not covered first form problems yet because everyone is fixating on this singular point and preventing it from being covered.

Invulnerability won't make a baseline 2-C survive attacks from a countless 2-B. That's blatant NLF.

 

[The_Smashor]

The Hedgehogs take damage from Solaris (They lose rings if hit), but they survive.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Invulnerability won't make a baseline 2-C survive attacks from a countless 2-B. That's blatant NLF.

Okay, so what you're doing now is devaluing Invulnerability as an ability rather than giving actually good refutes against this. If we're going by this type of logic, Invulnerability doesn't exist in general.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Invulnerability does exist in the Sonic franchise but it's too inconsistent to be used as reasoning: Burning Blaze got hurt by the Egg Salamander yet tanked hits from the more powerful Egg Wizard and Classic Super Sonic got harmed by the Phantom king but tanked hits from the more powerful Time eater. (Let's not even mention the Dark gaia debacle).

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

The way I see it, attacking the core was a way to rid Solaris of it's acausality,because it would keep revitalizing itself across time no matter how much damage it received,this is a matter of Low-Godly,not durability(Maybe)

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Inverted Tempest To be fair we don't count omnipotence as an ability on here. When a character is described as invulnerable that usually just means "they're really damn durable."