Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[ShakeResounding]

All respect to Mystic, I just find it hard to ignore all the statements of the cast growing strength (be it Sonic, Shadow, Chaos/Emerl via Chaos Emeralds, basically all of Sonic Battle, etc.).

I can understand it to an extent though.

 

[MysticMania]

Bruh, what tier would you have the base characters at then?

I mainly use Sonic Prime episode 1, with the creation of Shatterverse. Since that basically blew up the universe, and Sonic withstood that, I put base Sonic characters at Universal-ish (whatever size the universe in Sonic may be).

 

[ShakeResounding]

That take almost makes up for your weird erotics...

 

[MysticMania]

Before Sonic Prime, I mainly scaled the base cast to SCR-HD creating that stars and galaxy-containing black hole at the end of Zero Gravity. I still do buy that, but, I now feel the Shatterverse feat is a higher level than that.

 

[JJSliderman]

If they don’t grow in power that means classic was Uni+/2-C all along…which I agree with cuz single timeline theory.

 

[MysticMania]

I am evil, like that

 

[Theuser789]

That just seems like a you problema rather than a genuine thing

Not really. This is going to be a future CRT when the game comes out.

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

I don't buy Base Shadow being anywhere near Metal Overlord's level. I think it might an outlier,all around. Unless you believe some random floating cylinders are somehow complex-multi.

VERY nice Supporting Me arrange though.

 

[JJSliderman]

The Silver game could include a Solaris fight with base Silver and people would still find a way to say it doesn’t count.

 

[MysticMania]

I am curious if it may be Metal Madness? But yeah, that Supporting Me remix was delightful.

 

[Causalist]

I don't buy Base Shadow being anywhere near Metal Overlord's level. I think it might an outlier,all around. Unless you believe some random floating cylinders are somehow complex-multi.

VERY nice Supporting Me arrange though.

Metal Overlord shouldn't be complex multi in the first place. I always found the argument for it to be sus

 

[JJSliderman]

Metal Overlord shouldn't be complex multi in the first place. I always found the argument for it to be sus

Being frank, I only really find it sus because Super forms should just grow in power over time like most other characters with transformations, but people don’t like that.

 

[MysticMania]

Metal Overlord shouldn't be complex multi in the first place. I always found the argument for it to be sus

That is actually where I put him, but, I understand scaling changes depending on what you buy of course, etc.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

I am curious if it may be Metal Madness? But yeah, that Supporting Me remix was delightful.

Metal has wings and is flying there, it's Overlord

 

[MysticMania]

I'm pretty sure Madness has the same wings. And I think he even flies in that boss fight as well, he just isn't flying around the place like Overlord. He's hovering in place, from what it looks like.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Nah, compare designs and you'll see it's plainly Overlord. Madness has no distinct wings like that at the bottom portion of his body

 

[JJSliderman]

They make a big deal out of him growing wings in the cutscene after the Madness fight, and in that cutscene he starts off fused with the airship

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

I'm pretty sure Madness has the same wings.

No

 

[MysticMania]

They make a big deal out of him growing wings in the cutscene after the Madness fight, and in that cutscene he starts off fused with the airship

Oh, right! He does sprout the wing's blades after defeating Madness. Thank you for reminding me of that.

 

[Alexander]

I find off the fact that we have to downgrade the characters so the scaling chain makes sense, it only makes sense for classic characters.
dowgrading this guys just because you found the scaling off sounds like a big bias, specially if we are still thinking in the chaos emeralds having varied power (which only works if we assume Sonic is having a bad performance almost all the time, which sounds even more stupid)

 

[Snek]

You know now that I think about it why do we assume super Sonic's power can only be at two specific levels rather than anywhere in between full power and his standard level of strength. After all it's a big strech to just assume the emeralds were at their absolute limit against metal overlord instead of for example at most 2-C like the egg salamander or any other tier below 1-C by virtue of how a varies rating works.

That said I think we should downgrade metal overlord to low 2-C but add a possibly far higher rating to any low 2-C who fought super Sonic to account for the varies rating.

 

[Alexander]

You know now that I think about it why do we assume super Sonic's power can only be at two specific levels rather than anywhere in between full power and his standard level of strength. After all it's a big strech to just assume the emeralds were at their absolute limit against metal overlord instead of for example at most 2-C like the egg salamander or any other tier below 1-C by virtue of how a varies rating works.

That said I think we should downgrade metal overlord to low 2-C but add a possibly far higher rating to any low 2-C who fought super Sonic to account for the varies rating.

If Sonic fights against Egg salamander with help, why would he use his lowest end of power?

 

[MysticMania]

I do feel it would be odd for Super, thus the Emeralds, to not be full power against Overlord, since it seems they felt 3 Super beings would be needed to take them down.

 

[RedReaper616]

Eggman also directly comments the Emeralds straight up might not be enough. Not “Super Sonic at THIS level,” but that the Emeralds, in their entirety, are potentially not strong enough to beat Metal.

 

[Snek]

I do feel it would be odd for Super, thus the Emeralds, to not be full power against Overlord, since it seems they felt 3 Super beings would be needed to take them down.

I don't know if they brought 3 super forms to fight out of necessity or convenience though. After all more back up is always a good thing regardless of the opponent.

 

[JJSliderman]

I don't know if they brought 3 super forms to fight out of necessity or convenience though. After all more back up is always a good thing regardless of the opponent.

Definitely necessity, considering you can’t even hurt Overlord without team blast.

 

[Snek]

Definitely necessity, considering you can’t even hurt Overlord without team blast.

Right I forgot about that part.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Doesn't this mean base form characters hurting and beating Master Overlord (who was empowered by the M.E) in IDW is essentially more supporting evidence? Regardless where you scale Metal's transformations.

 

[Theuser789]

Being frank, I only really find it sus because Super forms should just grow in power over time like most other characters with transformations, but people don’t like that.

Biggest problem with this is Classic Super Sonic fighting the Time Eater, otherwise I would almost buy it.

 

[Alexander]

Biggest problem with this is Classic Super Sonic fighting the Time Eater, otherwise I would almost buy it.

Then just throw out Classic Sonic out of the scaling

 

[JJSliderman]

Biggest problem with this is Classic Super Sonic fighting the Time Eater, otherwise I would almost buy it.

Classic super only fights the Time Eater after a whole game packed with enemies across Sonic’s history for Classic to fight, and beat, as training.

 

[Theuser789]

Classic super only fights the Time Eater after a whole game packed with enemies across Sonic’s history for Classic to fight, and beat, as training.

Classic only fights characters from his era in Gens like Classic Metal or the Death Egg Robot. He doesn't do anything out of the ordinary.

 

[JJSliderman]

He is fighting modern Badniks from the Unleashed and Colors era, plus Sonic randomly growing in power to fit the plot is a common theme in the games.

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

Doesn't Classic Sonic in Gens eventually learn like the Homing Attack or something?

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Doesn't Classic Sonic in Gens eventually learn like the Homing Attack or something?

Either as a skill from Planet Wisp red rings in the console/pc versions, or permanent unlock after the Big Arms boss in the 3DS version

 

[RedReaper616]

He also is partway through learning an air-boost type move by the end of the game from Modern Sonic. Factually, he grew stronger as the game progressed. The issue, in my opinion isn’t that he doesn’t scale (he literally has to for the plot to work)—It’s is that the scaling is necessarily circular.

Modern upscales from his Classic Self, then his Classic self meets and beats Modern Era stuff (meaning he’s that strong in the past), then he upscales/grows into his Modern Self, repeat that cycle ad Infinitum. If “becoming Modern” had a numerical multiplier, you’d be able to visually see it and it’d be virtually canonical calc stacking. Though I guess that’s just the nature of time loop based plots like this.

 

[Alexander]

He also is partway through learning an air-boost type move by the end of the game from Modern Sonic. Factually, he grew stronger as the game progressed. The issue, in my opinion isn’t that he doesn’t scale (he literally has to for the plot to work)—It’s is that the scaling is necessarily circular.

Modern upscales from his Classic Self, then his Classic self meets and beats Modern Era stuff (meaning he’s that strong in the past), then he upscales/grows into his Modern Self, repeat that cycle ad Infinitum. If “becoming Modern” had a numerical multiplier, you’d be able to visually see it and it’d be virtually canonical calc stacking. Though I guess that’s just the nature of time loop based plots like this.

Yeah time loop

 

[BlastX]

Eggman also directly comments the Emeralds straight up might not be enough. Not “Super Sonic at THIS level,” but that the Emeralds, in their entirety, are potentially not strong enough to beat Metal.

Remember that at that point in the series they never fought anyone that's Full Power Super Form level (whether it's 2-B/2-A/Low 1-C/1-C or whatever it's the peak for Super Forms) so Eggman is going off what he's seen then emeralds do so far and not their actual peak.

 

[JJSliderman]

Remember that at that point in the series they never fought anyone that's Full Power Super Form level (whether it's 2-B/2-A/Low 1-C/1-C or whatever it's the peak for Super Forms) so Eggman is going off what he's seen then emeralds do so far and not their actual peak.

Technically, Perfect Chaos is stated as having fought the “full power” of the Emeralds via Sonic Channel.

 

[ShakeResounding]

If “becoming Modern” had a numerical multiplier, you’d be able to visually see it and it’d be virtually canonical calc stacking. Though I guess that’s just the nature of time loop based plots like this.

This shit sounds genuinely hilarious and wacky.

Infinitely above baseline Low 2-C via recurring loop when?