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aparently it matters at most the things sonic has resistance are related to time,but aparently he has not time travel
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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers
- Thread starter Maverick_Zero_X
- Start date
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No you can't. There's no speed meter or anything in-game that lets you know what speed you're running at. The best you have is prolly Sonic being described as a supersonic Hedgehog which doesn't tell you much besides Sonic is traveling at at least supersonic speeds.
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It's Sonic's speed that activates the warp to be fair, if you just pass the panel you won't go anywhere.
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oh you were talking about that,i tought you where reffering to how someone will know the time travel
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Yeah, because it puts Sonic's body on warp standby as stated by the manual. To initiate the warp via the warp panel, he needs to trigger the panels "warp energy" by maintaining lightspeed. Without the warp panel, he can't initiate warp at all.
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He was doing just fine attacking Chaos’s brain, which would have stopped it from attacking if Generations is anything to go by. Saying Chaos only survived due to regeneration is meh, because if he was so much weaker than Super Sonic then Sonic shouldn’t be pushed back at all by PC, he should just power through all his attacks no difficulty. (Which happens in X but X isn’t canon)
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Which is inconsistent with SA. He can have his brain attacked in SA, and he returns back just fine. So either Sonic only momentarily incapacitated Chaos in Generations, or he developed regeneration negation. Both of which fix this issue. Anyway, Super Sonic would be incapable of taking Chaos down due to his regen and huge water supply.
Being pushed/bounced back by a projectile doesn't prove relativity. It's quite a common theme to have weaker characters push back stronger characters. Look at One Punch Man as an example. Sonic isn't a weight that is entirely immovable. Perfect Chaos would only need to fire a projectile with enough force to move Sonic's mass which isn't very much.
The Egg Robot from the end of Sonic 3 & Knuckles could also push back Super or Hyper Sonic, and that mech also shouldn't scale because of that.
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Okay but, it still seems you have to jump through a lot of hoops to say Perfect doesn’t scale despite having a similar performance to other super form final bosses, when base Sonic could have simply risen to a comparable level to his super state over time (which is actually consistent in Generations with him repairing space-time on a universal scale in his base form).
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You literally have to jump through zero hoops. There are no statements that he is comparable, there are no feats that are comparable, there are now instances where they can harm Super Sonic. That is something everyone who SHOULD scale to Super Sonic has. Characters like Solaris and the Titans are not even remotely comparable to the situation Chaos is in. The Death Egg Robot from the ending of 3&K is the closest thing to the situation Chaos is in. And Death Egg Robot from Doomsday zone shouldn't scale either.
Him repairing space-time isn't an AP feat. That's space-time restoration hax. I'd agree if his speed destroyed space-time, but for reversing damage done? No.
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There are no statements that Devil Doom or Nega Mother Wisp are comparable to Super Sonic, no comparable feats in regards to Super Egg Robot or Finalhazard, and no instances where Time Eater or Egg Wizard harm Super Sonic. If harming Super Sonic is the metric then clearly Imperator Ix is > Time Eater.
The argument it’s hax doesn’t make sense when Sonic is directly reversing the effects of Time Eater’s obliteration of space time, said obliteration being the main source for Time Eater’s abilities being AP instead of hax based.
The argument it’s hax doesn’t make sense when Sonic is directly reversing the effects of Time Eater’s obliteration of space time, said obliteration being the main source for Time Eater’s abilities being AP instead of hax based.
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Have you only been skimming my posts? I have two other metrics and you chose to focus on one. If they don't fulfill one of the three metrics proposed in my previous posts, then I don't believe they have any grounds to scale to Super Sonic. This is not only an issue for Chaos. I've talked about this in the Sonic discord that MANY characters need nerds. Like Super Mecha Sonic, Super Neo, Master Overlord, etc.
Reversing the destruction of space-time via running isn't AP in any capacity. It's at best creation hax, at worst Space-Time manip or Reality Warping that can bring back color to a world.
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Except I referenced all 3 of the metrics you brought up. In regards to Master Overlord and Super Neo Metal they should scale above Metal Overlord by default due to having actual Emeralds powering them, and speaking of Metal Overlord, he probably provides the best reasoning for P. Chaos being a super form tier, his data combined with the playable Heroes characters made Metal more durable than Super Sonic alone could dish out.
Saying it’s hax just feels like a cop-out when it’s directly chained to a physical stat Sonic has, but I guess we’re not going to agree on that. By this logic Time Eater’s thing should be hax too, same with Mechikabura, Solaris, and basically every reality warping feat that is treated as AP on here.
Saying it’s hax just feels like a cop-out when it’s directly chained to a physical stat Sonic has, but I guess we’re not going to agree on that. By this logic Time Eater’s thing should be hax too, same with Mechikabura, Solaris, and basically every reality warping feat that is treated as AP on here.
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You addressed individual qualifications for each character when some of them have other qualifying factors. Time Eater can't hurt Super, but has their OWN 2-B/2-A feat they scale off of.
Super Beo and Master Overlord both dont use Emeralds. They use the Master Emerald, and using Emeralds alone isn't sufficient for scaling. They evidently don't scale to Super Sonic, otherwise Base Sonic couldn't clash and hold of Super Neo or physically harm Master Overlord. The data copying argument also makes no sense. He didnt become Super level by copying the strength of Chaos or anything like that, it was from collection a lot of people's abilities and then fusing with the Egg Fleet.
These aren't at all comparable and is the most dishonest comparison I have heard. One is blowing up a universe with an energy ball, one brings colors to the world by running in it. Even if Sonic just had outright creation and shat out a universe it wouldn't scale to his AP unless there was a universal energy system. Let alone some weird shenanigans that undoes the destruction of time and space by running. You can't bring back space-time via raw physical strength. Not unless it's some special circumstance.
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Saying it brings color to the world is blatantly untrue, Sonic is outright repairing space and time by running fast, and he uses his speed to attack with, I think that is a universal energy system of sorts.
I don’t know why the Egg Fleet would make a difference when it was one ship Metal absorbed, and Sonic has proven in Unleashed he can tear through Eggman’s entire fleet with no issue in his super form.
Sonic being able to hurt Master Overlord could just be a sign that Sonic has reached the level when he can stand up to universal threats in base, he was even capable of surviving a barrage of hits while still getting back to his feet and blocking a strike briefly from the universal Dark Queen that was trying to kill him, and all the way back in Shuffle he could tank hits from a stronger version of Void, who could destroy Maginaryworld world by world until it ceased to exist. Even in Rush, Sonic was countering the power of the Chaos Emeralds that Eggman noted would have caused great cataclysm to the world if Sonic wasn’t controlling them.
I don’t know why the Egg Fleet would make a difference when it was one ship Metal absorbed, and Sonic has proven in Unleashed he can tear through Eggman’s entire fleet with no issue in his super form.
Sonic being able to hurt Master Overlord could just be a sign that Sonic has reached the level when he can stand up to universal threats in base, he was even capable of surviving a barrage of hits while still getting back to his feet and blocking a strike briefly from the universal Dark Queen that was trying to kill him, and all the way back in Shuffle he could tank hits from a stronger version of Void, who could destroy Maginaryworld world by world until it ceased to exist. Even in Rush, Sonic was countering the power of the Chaos Emeralds that Eggman noted would have caused great cataclysm to the world if Sonic wasn’t controlling them.
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I thought it was obvious that bringing color was referring to the repairing of space-time. That's how Tails described it in-game after all. But apologies if it wasn't clear.
It's not a universal energy system. Nothing dictates that he can output the power to destroy space-time using the hax he used to restore space-time by running. If someone punched the air, and it created a planet, I wouldn't assume they have planet level AP. I'd assume they have creation hax that they can use/trigger by punching.
It's fiction. He could've just fulfilled the last requirement/prerequisite to trigger a transformation that gave him that much strength. Otherwise he wouldn't have felt a need to merge with the stuff to begin with.
Oh, I see what you're making the mistake of. You're assuming that since I don't think Perfect Chais is universal that I don't think Base Sonic is. I never said that. You argued that Master Overlord should be Super Sonic level. Base Sonic wouldn't even be able to SCRATCH Super Sonic even without invincibility. That is a problem. That means Master Overlord ISN'T Super Form level. That should be obvious. I said earlier you can get Sonic to Tier 2 using other stuff. There's just some characters who outright shouldn't scale to Super Sonic at all. Like Master Overlord
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Super forms have varying power levels supposedly, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that base Sonic could stand up to threats comparable to the low end of super forms. We even have a direct comparison where base Sonic and Super Sonic both fight an entity powered by the same artifact from Mania to Forces.
Not to mention that if base Sonic is tier 2, the fact that Forces Classic Sonic goes through all the same events again after returning to the past means PC would be tier 2 anyway.
Fact is that out of the things Metal fused with to become a threat that stands up to super forms; Chaos is the only one that makes sense to do the heavy lifting, since Neo only copied the bio data of base form characters, and if copying Sonic’s data immediately made him super form tier because Sonic has turned super in the past, then he should have been completely shitstomped by regular Neo Metal in IDW without landing any meaningful hits, which doesn’t happen.
Not to mention that if base Sonic is tier 2, the fact that Forces Classic Sonic goes through all the same events again after returning to the past means PC would be tier 2 anyway.
Fact is that out of the things Metal fused with to become a threat that stands up to super forms; Chaos is the only one that makes sense to do the heavy lifting, since Neo only copied the bio data of base form characters, and if copying Sonic’s data immediately made him super form tier because Sonic has turned super in the past, then he should have been completely shitstomped by regular Neo Metal in IDW without landing any meaningful hits, which doesn’t happen.
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I'm glad we can agree Super Forms can vary. The issue? It can vary from ANYTHING beneath Tier 2-A. There isn't a reason to assume Master Overlord is Tier 2 at all accept that it feels right.
No, because Classic post Generation has an altered future. We don't even know IF he'll ever fight Perfect Chaos. And if he, it would only be in Classic's altered future. Not the unaltered original timeline.
I don't think Neo even copied Perfect Chaos. At the end of Adventure he reverted to Chaos 0. But regardless of that, Neo copied abilities, not statistics. And don't compare the improved Neo from IDW to the one from Adventure. They're quite literally built different
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Great, except the only scaling that super forms directly scale to is something that is below the power level of a single Chaos Emerald, something like the Eclipse Cannon is more for scaling to entities that have the chaos Emeralds inside them and are being amped but aren’t super form tier like Emerl, and Egg Blaster has no connection to super forms, so the next highest feat they have is universal.
It’s been stressed multiple times that Classic Sonic is just Sonic from the past, he’s not from an alternate timeline or anything.
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Emerl isn't Super Form tier. Anyway, they could scale off of the value of things that use less Chaos Emeralds, but that's about it.
Doesn't matter if its contradicted to such a ridiculous degree. Time Eater caused Classic to to go on Adventures Modern Sonic has never been on before and was treated as if he were from another world in Forces. You can treat him as past Sonic, but the enemies from Modern's unaltered past wont be affected.
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Okay, “less Chaos Emeralds” can power all of Cyberspace, a dimension that can hold countless amounts of 3D data and the dreams of thousands of ancients, it would be at least universal size.
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Dang SEGA, always making scaling confusing. You got one Emerald maintaining a universe, but then a guy powered by 7 struggling with a weapon that can destroy Stars.
To be safe, I'd go with up scaling from Emerl. It's made apparent in canon that different characters can utilize the same amount of Chaos Energy with different efficiency. It's why I brought up that the degree it's channeled matters more than the amount used. Though I have considered not scaling off of nunber of Emeralds at all since that would help with the inconsistencies in showings.
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Maybe, considering a single Emerald could also knock back the Time Eater with its aura.
Honestly though I think it might be fair to argue the Egg Blaster has MSS range but far higher AP.
Honestly though I think it might be fair to argue the Egg Blaster has MSS range but far higher AP.
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Exactly. I was just about to bring that up. Sometimes you have one emerald repelling a 2-A character, sometimes you have almost an entire set just to blow up Earth. I was always skeptical on scaling based on number of Emeralds unless explicit proof is present.
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Maybe, I guess a list of feats for base Sonic to scale to could be compiled.
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I think that would be a good idea. We should prolly also make a blog for scaling the verse as a whole with rules on what can be scaled to something and what can't. This would downgrade Classic Sonic in the OG games (which tbh, I'm fine with. I always thought his Large Planet rating felt a bit off) as well as Modern characters prior to Battle. However, I do still plan to upgrade Battle Sonic to Multi-Solar. Than sometime after that Infinite speed Modern.
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Not sure where infinite speed Modern would come from, considering the only sources I can think of would be things that would also give Sonic a universal tiering.
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Sonic running to the end of the infinite corridor in Arabian Nights, and escaping Null Space which in the encyclopedia is stated to be infinite
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I’m kind of iffy on those, he clearly didn’t explore every aspect of the astral plane, and he escaped Null Space with dimensional travel.
A better argument might be Sonic dodging attacks from the PR that uses the same energy to make said dimension.
A better argument might be Sonic dodging attacks from the PR that uses the same energy to make said dimension.
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The cooridor/hallway is the only thing that grew infinitely long. And Sonic ran through the ENTIRE thing. It's a clear cut infinite speed feat.
How do you know he used Dimensional Travel and didnt cover an infinite distance to escape? Is there a statement of that being the case? I would not use it creating null space to scale it to Phantom Ruby's speed when the PR is very obviously a haxy/reality warping rock. Well, it ig if there's a statement it was formed by raw power/energy alone, then Id buy it.
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The dimension is made of the same cube constructs as the Phantom Ruby’s offensive damaging attacks, albeit they’re purple instead of red.
Not to mention we can see entire regions of space in the distance of the astral plane that aren’t explored, so Sonic clearly didn’t run across the entire dimension.
We see what appears to be a portal of some kind that Sonic exits out of when he returns to Metropolis, and the dimension itself is closed off from normal reality and Sonic’s main dimension, so it doesn’t make sense he would arrive back there after reaching the “end” of Null Space.
Not to mention we can see entire regions of space in the distance of the astral plane that aren’t explored, so Sonic clearly didn’t run across the entire dimension.
We see what appears to be a portal of some kind that Sonic exits out of when he returns to Metropolis, and the dimension itself is closed off from normal reality and Sonic’s main dimension, so it doesn’t make sense he would arrive back there after reaching the “end” of Null Space.
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I don't think how it looks is the best way to determine if it was made through the energy output asmopposed to hax. Especially when the visuals of the PR are pretty uniform with the red cubes and glitchyness.
It's not a dimension. The hallway in front of Sonic grew infinitely long. The distance in FRONT of Sonic is what grew infinite. And Sonic ran the length of the room.
The closed off from reality could be a good point, however if anything, that would mean dimensional travel is LESS likely. As it being closed off to all dimensions means dimensional travel wouldn't bring you anywhere. As for the portal thing? That could just be how they depict the edge/end of Null Space. Or maybe Sonic breaking a hole in the edge of Null Space. Which now that I think of it seems feasible. Sonic should have infinite speed and dimensional manipulation
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Prove that the corridor is what’s infinitely long as opposed to the space, because the space is what’s referred to as infinite in the guides.
It being closed off from other dimensions would mean that you can’t access another dimension by running to the end of the current Null Space area, it wouldn’t stop dimensional travel, which is moving from one undetermined point in one dimension to another undetermined point in another dimdnsion
It being closed off from other dimensions would mean that you can’t access another dimension by running to the end of the current Null Space area, it wouldn’t stop dimensional travel, which is moving from one undetermined point in one dimension to another undetermined point in another dimdnsion
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Dude, come on, at this point it seems like you want to interpret the statements in an oddly specific fashion to lowball the feat. The prima guide explicitly states the corridor expands to an infinite size. Sonic travels to the length of the expanse. The expanse was very clearly not just the width of the building (hell, I'm not even sure the width visually expanded in the scene, but Ill look). Meaning for Sonic to cross to the end of the corridor he'd have to bad cross an infinite distance.
If I recall the Japanese translation, it stated it was sealed off (or closed) from all dimension. That would make dimensional travel impossible as every other dimension is blocked off by Null Space. I will note that breaking through the wall/edge of Null Space seems supported by the encyclopedia which states Sonic breaks through Null Space. This would imply he went through all of Null Space and tore the walls of Null Space open creating an opening into their world.
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If the corridor is supposed to be infinite and not the astral plane, then I think that’s just a case of being metaphorical, the corridor ends after 3 walls.
I guess I won’t comment any further on NS since I think Sonic scales regardless, albeit for different reasons.
I guess I won’t comment any further on NS since I think Sonic scales regardless, albeit for different reasons.
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Of course it ends. It's a video game dude. And a small portion of an already hard level. They're not going to make it literally ******* infinite, you wouldn't be able to beat it if they did (though that admittedly would be really funny).
Fair, if we both agree with the conclusion, the premise on which it is based on prolly isn't as important.
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Maybe, figured I would compile base Sonic scaling though.
Large Planet: Chaos Emeralds moving continents
Large Planet-Small Star: Eclipse Cannon piercing stars.
MSS, possibly far higher: Downscaling the Egg Blaster that wiped out a star cluster, Scaling to the Phantom Ruby that made a dimension full of stars.
Uni: Scales to the Chaos Emeralds that could move a universe, power another universe, scales to the PR that made an “endless” dimension, debatably undoing space-time destruction on a universal scale, downscales Dark Queen Merlina who could destroy the universe, scales to Void who could wipe out Maginaryworld one world at a time.
MFTL+: Scaling to Babylon Garden, Dodon Pa’s rocket ship and Eggman’s ships which could fly to Planet Wisp across the universe/“very far away”, the stuff in Sonic Rivals, Keeping up with Void and PR’s attack speed that is also used for dimension creation.
Infinite: Sonic can reach the end of an infinite corridor in finite time, can dodge attacks from the Phantom Ruby which uses that same energy to create the endless/infinite null space, or reaches the walls at the end of the infinite space and breaks through them.
Large Planet: Chaos Emeralds moving continents
Large Planet-Small Star: Eclipse Cannon piercing stars.
MSS, possibly far higher: Downscaling the Egg Blaster that wiped out a star cluster, Scaling to the Phantom Ruby that made a dimension full of stars.
Uni: Scales to the Chaos Emeralds that could move a universe, power another universe, scales to the PR that made an “endless” dimension, debatably undoing space-time destruction on a universal scale, downscales Dark Queen Merlina who could destroy the universe, scales to Void who could wipe out Maginaryworld one world at a time.
MFTL+: Scaling to Babylon Garden, Dodon Pa’s rocket ship and Eggman’s ships which could fly to Planet Wisp across the universe/“very far away”, the stuff in Sonic Rivals, Keeping up with Void and PR’s attack speed that is also used for dimension creation.
Infinite: Sonic can reach the end of an infinite corridor in finite time, can dodge attacks from the Phantom Ruby which uses that same energy to create the endless/infinite null space, or reaches the walls at the end of the infinite space and breaks through them.
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Can Sonic’s page be locked, the blue Wisp revision finished.
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