Sonic (Archie Pre-Genesis Wave) vs Paper Mario.

[Ddcbryant]

With prep and help from friends yes


When he starts showing instant reaction to speed blitzing yes


Without help no

 

[MafiaFox]

so we all agree mario wins against pre-genesis?

How does he not get speed blitz'd doe? He's SO much faster mario it's rediculous.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because nothing he does can hurt Mario in the slightest. It can't even begin to compare to a fly hitting you. Once Mario finally reacts, nothing Sonic can do will stop Mario from ending his existence.

 

[Ddcbryant]

How does he not get speed blitz'd doe? He's SO much faster mario it's rediculous.

Yeah that's the only thing that won't save him, he'll lose before it starts. The Pure Hearts take a while to appear then slowly targets the enemy.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

He's not using the pure hearts to weaken sonic (even when it was done for Dimentio, the speed can't be arued, as they appeared instantly, and it's a game. Monologuing exists...), but to strengthen himself to Dimentio's level. That's why he's 2-B. He's not bringing out the power up ala Super Mario Bros Z.

 

[Ddcbryant]

I like how the wiki doesn't mention Chaos Force which prevents him from getting erased from existence and immune to reality warping, Enerjak used it on him and he resisted it.

 

[Pikachu942]

It doesn't matter if he's immune to reality warping, Mario becomes 2-B in general, stronger than Sonic.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I know Pikachu942 just adressed it, but infinitely greater power would kinda override the 2-C immunity.

 

[Ddcbryant]

When Mario starts having instant reactions he wins. Anyways using outside hax items to boost the tier up 1 point over Archie Sonic who has none. What happens if I tell the admin to put the One Billionth Ring making him unkillable, which would boost his tier 5 points higher than the Pure Hearts. See how unfair that is?

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

When Mario starts having instant reactions he wins. Anyways using outside hax items to boost the tier up 1 point over Archie Sonic who has none. What happens if I tell the admin to put the One Billionth Ring making him unkillable, which would boost his tier 5 points higher than the Pure Hearts. See how unfair that is?

Super Sonic has haxs as well but its not as powerful as the pure hearts. It doesn't count as outside help since on the game he was destined to use the pure hearts or prophecy. Mario wins this

 

[Ddcbryant]

Super Sonic has haxs as well but its not as powerful as the pure hearts. It doesn't count as outside help since on the game he was destined to use the pure hearts or prophecy. Mario wins this

(I can't believe I'm bringing this up again) With the help of everyone else (Four Heroes Of Light) And so now you're bringing destines into this thread lol. Sonic, Knuckles, and Tails had prophecies too. Tails was the Chosen One to defeat Mammoth Mogul from destroying the multiverse by merging with other Tail versions of himself from different realities, and again by sending & unifying every Chaos Emerald in his reality into an alternate dimension where they were reduced in form to seven Chaos Emeralds to complete The Great Harmony. Knuckles is destined to be the "Avatar", a figure from the prophecy destined to bypass the afterlife and return to deliver the world from its suffering. Zonic telling Sonic he'll become the Sonic Prime the one true Sonic of all dimensions.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

Im just pointing that out @Ddc you dont need to lecture me i know the archie series, its just that the pure hearts are just alot stronger when it comes to power.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

When Mario starts having instant reactions he wins. Anyways using outside hax items to boost the tier up 1 point over Archie Sonic who has none. What happens if I tell the admin to put the One Billionth Ring making him unkillable, which would boost his tier 5 points higher than the Pure Hearts. See how unfair that is?

(I can't believe I'm bringing this up again) With the help of everyone else (Four Heroes Of Light) And so now you're bringing destines into this thread lol. Sonic, Knuckles, and Tails had prophecies too. Tails was the Chosen One to defeat Mammoth Mogul from destroying the multiverse by merging with other Tail versions of himself from different realities, and again by sending & unifying every Chaos Emerald in his reality into an alternate dimension where they were reduced in form to seven Chaos Emeralds to complete The Great Harmony. Knuckles is destined to be the "Avatar", a figure from the prophecy destined to bypass the afterlife and return to deliver the world from its suffering. Zonic telling Sonic he'll become the Sonic Prime the one true Sonic of all dimensions.

...If you are implying that the billionth ring makes him 1-A, or 0, you're sorely mistaken. By a long shot. Once you get into tier 2, it goes by dimensions. Far beyond anything the Archie scope. Not even PR Beyonder is 1-A. At maximum wank and speculation, would be 2-A at max. He wouldn't be in the same league as Asriel Dreemurr, the two tier 1 Superme, Michael Demiurgos, ANY of the Ushiromiyas, etc. Unkillable only affects durability too, so even then, if it wasn't 1, a hyperbole, and 2, limited to 2-C beings, same with your prophecies, it wouldn't change his tier in the slightest, and make this a stalemate. There are plenty of unkillables that are tier 7, or lower.

And please, stop saying multiverse. It's a multi-universe. You're making Sonic a higher tier than he is with saying multiverse.

For the last time 1 "point" is equal to ∞ when they are in this high.

As Notamariofan pointed out, Chaos Emeralds are outside items too, and even then, both are allowed. That's like saying store-bought guns aren't allowed because they are outside.

Destinies that have been fulfilled, to beat Dimentio, which makes them 2-B.

I've already broght up that the 4 were prophesized to collect them. Nothing more. If a random mook gathered them, and had love in his heart, he'd be 2-B too.

 

[MafiaFox]

When Mario starts having instant reactions he wins. Anyways using outside hax items to boost the tier up 1 point over Archie Sonic who has none. What happens if I tell the admin to put the One Billionth Ring making him unkillable, which would boost his tier 5 points higher than the Pure Hearts. See how unfair that is?

(I can't believe I'm bringing this up again) With the help of everyone else (Four Heroes Of Light) And so now you're bringing destines into this thread lol. Sonic, Knuckles, and Tails had prophecies too. Tails was the Chosen One to defeat Mammoth Mogul from destroying the multiverse by merging with other Tail versions of himself from different realities, and again by sending & unifying every Chaos Emerald in his reality into an alternate dimension where they were reduced in form to seven Chaos Emeralds to complete The Great Harmony. Knuckles is destined to be the "Avatar", a figure from the prophecy destined to bypass the afterlife and return to deliver the world from its suffering. Zonic telling Sonic he'll become the Sonic Prime the one true Sonic of all dimensions.

...If you are implying that the billionth ring makes him 1-A, or 0, you're sorely mistaken. By a long shot. Once you get into tier 2, it goes by dimensions. Far beyond anything the Archie scope. Not even PR Beyonder is 1-A. At maximum wank and speculation, would be 2-A at max. He wouldn't be in the same league as Asriel Dreemurr, the two tier 1 Superme, Michael Demiurgos, ANY of the Ushiromiyas, etc. Unkillable only affects durability too, so even then, if it wasn't 1, a hyperbole, and 2, limited to 2-C beings, same with your prophecies, it wouldn't change his tier in the slightest, and make this a stalemate. There are plenty of unkillables that are tier 7, or lower.
And please, stop saying multiverse. It's a multi-universe. You're making Sonic a higher tier than he is with saying multiverse.

For the last time 1 "point" is equal to ∞ when they are in this high.

As Notamariofan pointed out, Chaos Emeralds are outside items too, and even then, both are allowed. That's like saying store-bought guns aren't allowed because they are outside.

Destinies that have been fulfilled, to beat Dimentio, which makes them 2-B.

I've already broght up that the 4 were prophesized to collect them. Nothing more. If a random mook gathered them, and had love in his heart, he'd be 2-B too.

I thought a multiverse consisted of millions of universes though?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It does. If you're referring to the Mammoth Mogul thing, take a look at his note. He was destroying millions of multi-universes over time. There's a reason Buu wasn't galaxy level when we had his feats based on the anime. And just the difference of 1 universe is still ∞.

 

[Ddcbryant]

Enerjak is at least 2-A Multiverse+ and Super Sonic resisted his attacks. The Pure Hearts which are stated only Multiversal is still not enough to beat Super Sonic.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

True non-avatar Enerjak is, which Sonic NEVER FOUGHT. Enerjak Knuckles is 2-C (Enerjak Knuckles isn't Chaos Knuckles, who's a totally different story).

 

[MafiaFox]

True non-avatar Enerjak is, which Sonic NEVER FOUGHT. Enerjak Knuckles is 2-C (Enerjak Knuckles isn't Chaos Knuckles, who's a totally different story).

If only Chas Knuckles and Sonic fought so sonic could get an upgrade :'( owell, and yes you're correct, but he smacked enerjak knuckles didn't he?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

He sure did. Sonic knocked Knuckles around. Or in this case...Knucked him around... Get it? Hm... I've been hanging out with sans too much...

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

So we reached a conclusion. Mario wins this?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I vote yes.

 

[Brickhead2550]

Yep

 

[Dekoshu]

What does it take to beat Mario at his strongest? If even this version of Sonic would lose to Mario, then I'm not sure who from a video game universe or multiverse would outright win against Mario, with a or a number of Pure Hearts.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

To be of a higher tier or have both speed and hax advantage on the same tier.

 

[Dekoshu]

To be of a higher tier or have both speed and hax advantage on the same tier.

Thank you.

 

[Ddcbryant]

Its still stated that any Echidna race that absorbs an enormous amounts of Chaos energy becomes Enerjak. The first and second descendants did the third Echidna Dimitri too. Since Knuckles had the strongest connection to the Chaos Force out of all of them, Finitevus chose him. Knuckles was tricked to going to Echidnaopolis on Angel Island to beat the Dingoes taking over and instead getting caught. An altered Master Emerald with unlimited power which brainwashed Knuckles after tricking him into thinking it was his fault that 90% of his race is dead by the Eggman Empire. And needed Knuckles help so by using the Master Emeralds power which was hex by Finitevus. Same powers as the original and Super Sonic stalemated him.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

First off, Argumentum ad verbosium. A fallacy on this wiki.

Taking a second to process what you wrote, that would still make him 2-C. They'd only become Enerjack avatars, so still 2-C.

If that was just for some clarification and not a claim for Sonic's victory, then I apologize

 

[Ddcbryant]

What does it take to beat Mario at his strongest? If even this version of Sonic would lose to Mario, then I'm not sure who from a video game universe or multiverse would outright win against Mario, with a or a number of Pure Hearts.

His reaction and speed is what puts Paper Mario to his doom. Even though he has all these Star items, he doesn't have the time to pull them out before the fight starts, since Archie Sonic's speed is MFTL he outran black holes and ran across the multiverse less than a day. Paper Mario can pull out any endgame weapon but doesn't have the time. Now Bill Cipher would give Archie Sonic a challenge.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

For the last time. He's. Not. Pulling. Them. Out.

 

[Ddcbryant]

For the last time. He's. Not. Pulling. Them. Out.

Then whats he going to do? Its still not going to help since Mario will be dead instantly.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm going to quote myself from a while back

"Because nothing he does can hurt Mario in the slightest. It can't even begin to compare to a fly hitting you. Once Mario finally reacts, nothing Sonic can do will stop Mario from ending his existence."

 

[MafiaFox]

I'm going to quote myself from a while back
"Because nothing he does can hurt Mario in the slightest. It can't even begin to compare to a fly hitting you. Once Mario finally reacts, nothing Sonic can do will stop Mario from ending his existence."

So how many universes did Mario destroy? If it's multi-universal vs 4 multiversal 100 multi-universal hits are going to hurt

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Ôê×>>>>>>>whatever number of times Sonic is gonna hit him, man.

And don't check with Mario, but with Dimentio for multiverse destruction.

 

[Ddcbryant]

I'm going to quote myself from a while back

"Because nothing he does can hurt Mario in the slightest. It can't even begin to compare to a fly hitting you. Once Mario finally reacts, nothing Sonic can do will stop Mario from ending his existence."

Don't know why you keep bringing in the Pure Hearts when they were only made for the sole purpose to counterattack the Chaos Hearts. They won't do anything to Sonic. Super Dimentio stated he was going to destroy all worlds (Only the Mario Multiverse), not all universes (Some other fictional characters universe). lololol. I'm sorry but the Pure Hearts only restored the user health not give him Multiverse Power (wank), there was no mention in the game of Paper Mario acquiring that kind of power. The Pure Hearts were only used to target and cancel the Chaos Hearts, remove the shield and weakened Super Dimentio so he can now jump on him. If Paper Mario really had multiverse power the Chaos Hearts would've fused inside him, but it didn't it was for Super Dimentio only. I would've gave it to Paper Mario if that happened but it never did. Plus if he did fused with them against Super Dimentio fused Chaos Heart it would've been a stalemate. Sorry

 

[MafiaFox]

∞>>>>>>>whatever number of times Sonic is gonna hit him, man.
And don't check with Mario, but with Dimentio for multiverse destruction.

how is it infinity?? Is it a 4-dimensional space or what??

 

[Ddcbryant]

What's Stopping Sonic from going intangible and bypass the Pure Hearts even though they won't do anything to him anyway ROFL!! And Paper Mario bringing his friends to activate it will be a waste of time

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Ddcbryant: Don't know why you keep bringing in the Pure Hearts when they were only made for the sole purpose to counterattack the Chaos Hearts. They won't do anything to Sonic. Super Dimentio stated he was going to destroy all worlds, not all universes lololol.

Then check with the mods. Make a thread. We can't have you constantly going against profiles to fit your whims, so until you do one of them, stop going against profiles. And still, the Pure Heart/Purity Heart is meant to be equal to the Chaos Hearts in every way, which Dimentio used to reality warp Bleck out of the multiverse. Not to mention that literally every other versus forum has Dimentio on multiverse level, or even multiverse+ level.

I can use the same logic on you. "Sonic characters can only destroy zones, not universes lololol."

Despite the fact that worlds in this case are universal, and it has been proven for this case. Would you complain about Darkspine's universal when it was only claimed to be world? His wasn't proven which is why Darkspine is either tier 5 or tier 3. Dimentio was.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

∞>>>>>>>whatever number of times Sonic is gonna hit him, man.
And don't check with Mario, but with Dimentio for multiverse destruction.

how is it infinity?? Is it a 4-dimensional space or what??

Because it's a countless universal difference. C'mon man. I thought we went over this before Universes are ∞

 

[Ddcbryant]

Ddcbryant: Don't know why you keep bringing in the Pure Hearts when they were only made for the sole purpose to counterattack the Chaos Hearts. They won't do anything to Sonic. Super Dimentio stated he was going to destroy all worlds, not all universes lololol.

Then check with the mods. Make a thread. We can't have you constantly going against profiles to fit your whims, so until you do one of them, stop going against profiles. And still, the Pure Heart/Purity Heart is meant to be equal to the Chaos Hearts in every way, which Dimentio used to reality warp Bleck out of the multiverse. Not to mention that literally every other versus forum has Dimentio on multiverse level, or even multiverse+ level.

I can use the same logic on you. "Sonic characters can only destroy zones, not universes lololol."

Despite the fact that worlds in this case are universal, and it has been proven for this case. Would you complain about Darkspine's universal when it was only claimed to be world? His wasn't proven which is why Darkspine is either tier 5 or tier 3. Dimentio was.

We're talking about Archie Comics Sonic not Darkespine Sonic oh http://nicktheultimate.deviantart.com/journal/Archie-Sonic-is-multiversal-586970631

In conclusion Pure Hearts won't work on Sonic since it was only made to stop the Chaos Hearts and nothing else. Overhyped item trying to overpower Archie Sonic and backfired.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm using darkspine as an example. I used a crudton of examples earlier. This is no different.

That's Post-Genesis, who we know to be multiversal. This isn't Post-Genesis. Stop trying to make him mutiversal when he's not. First you state that the billionth ring makes 1-A, then fallacy, then use a totally different character. Just a friendly warning that this could backfire on you, and you're a worthy adversary for debating, so I don't want you to get banned for that.

It was made to stop a multiversal item. How on earth does it not scale? Seriously, what are you trying to with that? You're constantly changing your arguement.