Son Goku vs Sanji Vinsmoke

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Fake monkey.... Also you are a goku supporter.

It's not my fault people/humans wank him like crazy because he's popular

Yes, I have been watching and scaling dragon ball for years. From my experience, people downplay dragon ball characters skill more, in fact, dragon ball overall at the beginning was wanked which made it look bad to power scalers so now there is a lot of downplay, precisely because it's popular.

Why people think that mimicry equals skill lol

It more than equals skill when it's done through skill and talent and not through magic or something. For example sharingan is magic that makes you able to copy skills, it's not applicable to combat skill, but in Goku's and others' case, they can learn and copy skills through just watching them being performed through sheer talent and fighting skill.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yes, I have been watching and scaling dragon ball for years. From my experience, people downplay dragon ball characters skill more

The only actually skilled characters in og dragon ball is Mercenary Tao, Master Roshi, Teen Goku and Piccolo I think

 

[Nierre]

Why people think that mimicry equals skill lol

Cause it is lol. Copying a martial art technique just by looking at it once, without the necessary training that's needed to learn that technique, is definitely skill. Unless you're using a cheat like Sharingan for example.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Copying techniques sure is skill but it's not really Combat Skill... You are just doing the exact thing someone else did... But if you can copy advance techniques that requires combat skill then it would count as a good skill feat

For example copying Kamehameha is not a good combat skill at all but copying After images is a little more better but still bad.... Copying drunken fist is an actual very good copying skills... But it all depends how someone can/does learn it.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The only actually skilled characters in og dragon ball is Mercenary Tao, Master Roshi, Teen Goku and Piccolo I think

Krillin skills stomps luffy.
I mean, so you think roshi is skilled, but kid Goku with no prior proper martial arts training is able to learn a move in 3 seconds by seeing it once, said move that took roshi 50 years to learn, and also matched roshi in hand to hand combat, copied his moves and techniques and nearly almost defeated him if not for his height, is not skilled?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Copying techniques sure is skill but it's not really Combat Skill... You are just doing the exact thing someone else did... But if you can copy advance techniques that requires combat skill then it would count as a good skill feat

For example copying Kamehameha is not a good combat skill at all but copying After images is a little more better but still bad.... Copying drunken fist is an actual very good copying skills... But it all depends how someone can/does learn it.

Btw Goku did exactly that against roshi, he copied roshi's double fake after image technique and improved it to the triple fake after image technique and slapped roshi with his own move.

 

[Nierre]

The only actually skilled character in og dragon ball is Mercenary Tao, Teen Goku and Piccolo I think

Being a martial artist makes you skilled. I have no idea what your definition of skilled is but it's wrong. Goku in the very beginning of OG Dragonball was taught by Grandpa Gohan, who iirc was taught by Master Roshi, who's the best martial artist in the world (which already puts him above Tao). He eventually is taught by said martial artists and with only a few days (I think), he was already far ahead of his colleagues (Krillin and Yamcha). He managed to raid and defeat a whole army BY HIMSELF, and challenged Tao twice and eventually won. He also fought to fight in 3 different World Tournaments, where fighters from ALL OVER THE WORLD fight in, and he managed to get really freaking far in all 3 of them and won the last one. He also fought Piccolo which you already admitted to being skilled so I won't go there. He was even taught by NUMEROUS of teachers including Kami, Korin, Popo etc etc.

I can't believe you're ignoring obvious skill feats that were shown. You even stated that you've watched it all, and yet for you to come out and say only those 3 are skilled is baffling to me.

For example copying Kamehameha is not a good combat skill at all

uhh yeah it is lol. Goku didn't even know what ki was, or what the process of making it, yet just by watching he was able to perfectly copy a technique that would normally take YEARS for someone who mind you is already advanced in ki control and ki manipulation

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Krillin skills stomps luffy.

Funny...

I mean, so you think roshi is skilled

Yes

Btw Goku did exactly that against roshi, he copied roshi's double fake after image technique and improved it to the triple fake after image technique and slapped roshi with his own move.

That's just goku being faster...

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Being a martial artist makes you skilled. I have no idea what your definition of skilled is but it's wrong. Goku in the very beginning of OG Dragonball was taught by Grandpa Gohan, who iirc was taught by Master Roshi, who's the best martial artist in the world (which already puts him above Tao). He eventually is taught by said martial artists and with only a few days (I think), he was already far ahead of his colleagues (Krillin and Yamcha). He managed to raid and defeat a whole army BY HIMSELF, and challenged Tao twice and eventually won. He also fought to fight in 3 different World Tournaments, where fighters from ALL OVER THE WORLD fight in, and he managed to get really freaking far in all 3 of them and won the last one. He also fought Piccolo which you already admitted to being skilled so I won't go there. He was even taught by NUMEROUS of teachers including Kami, Korin, Popo etc etc.

Literally nearly everything there is how just being much better in copying techniques and doing things better because he is a Saiyan and overpowered all the skilled fighters

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Funny...

Yes

That's just goku being faster...

He was not faster lmao, they were evenly matched.
Anyway nice analysis Nierre, sorry for derailing this thread so heavily, voting son goku for the reasons I gave.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I can't believe you're ignoring obvious skill feats that were shown. You even stated that you've watched it all, and yet for you to come out and say only those 3 are skilled is baffling to me.

Nothing you said were skills

I can be 10x stronger than Mayweather and 1 shot him but he will still be much more skilled

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

uhh yeah it is lol. Goku didn't even know what ki was, or what the process of making it, yet just by watching he was able to perfectly copy a technique that would normally take YEARS for someone who mind you is already advanced in ki control and ki manipulation

Because he is a Saiyan.... Its much easier

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Goku's body itself adapts... It's not him actually doing it. I swear if he wasn't a Saiyan, he would need to train the same amount of time roshi did

 

[Nierre]

Literally nearly everything there is how just being much better in copying techniques

Most of what I mentioned wasn't copying lol. In fact he's only copied like 5 moves in OG dragonball? Unless you're referring to fighting style, in that case Sanji's fighting style was also copied from Zeff, which makes him just a copy cat (Outside of DJ).

doing things better because he is a Saiyan

While that is true, that still makes him skilled, you can't negate everything he's learned "just because he's a Saiyan" he's still skilled in his own right because he was able to learn those abilities and recreate them, and or do better

 

[Nierre]

Goku's body itself adapts... It's not him actually doing it.

Huh? Goku and his body adapt. They aren't separate entities. Why are you talking like they are .

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Most of what I mentioned wasn't copying lol. In fact he's only copied like 5 moves in OG dragonball? Unless you're referring to fighting style, in that case Sanji's fighting style was also copied from Zeff, which makes him just a copy cat (Outside of DJ).

Goku in the very beginning of OG Dragonball was taught by Grandpa Gohan, who iirc was taught by Master Roshi, who's the best martial artist in the world (which already puts him above Tao). He eventually is taught by said martial artists and with only a few days (I think), he was already far ahead of his colleagues (Krillin and Yamcha).

Ok cool... That's his body doing most of the work...

He managed to raid and defeat a whole army BY HIMSELF

By overpoweing

and challenged Tao twice and eventually won.

Via goku exceeding much faster making him win...

He also fought to fight in 3 different World Tournaments, where fighters from ALL OVER THE WORLD fight in, and he managed to get really freaking far in all 3 of them and won the last one.

Just overpowered nearly all of them...

He was even taught by NUMEROUS of teachers including Kami, Korin, Popo etc etc.

And is there only because Sayian.

While that is true, that still makes him skilled, you can't negate everything he's learned "just because he's a Saiyan" he's still skilled in his own right because he was able to learn those abilities and recreate them, and or do better

Sure... But those aren't actual good combat skill feats

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Huh? Goku and his body adapt. They aren't separate entities. Why are you talking like they are .

Because sayians bodies are much better than human bodies... Of course he's going to win against even the most skilled human.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Don't think you can bring me actually good skill feats from kid goku that exceeds east blue moster trio or even gets close to it. So I'll leave since I don't wanna debate anymore....


Goku fra

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Don't think you can bring me actually good skill feats from kid goku that exceeds east blue moster trio or even gets close to it. So I'll leave since I don't wanna debate anymore....


Goku fra

Bruh east blue... anything past BoZ or 23rd budokai is not fair for one piece they just get skill stomped, by the 22nd arc, Goku is a god tier in one piece.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Bruh east blue... anything past BoZ or 23rd budokai is not fair for one piece they just get skill stomped, by the 22nd arc, Goku is a god tier in one piece.

Wank... East blue luffy and east blue Zoro both is more skilled than the whole dragon ball verse... And that's just me that has only seen dragon ball and a little of dbz

 

[Nierre]

Bruh east blue... anything past BoZ or 23rd budokai is not fair for one piece they just get skill stomped, by the 22nd arc, Goku is a god tier in one piece.

It doesn't matter. You aren't gonna be able to convince him ...

Goku fra

Counted

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Stomp matches aren't allowed.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

It doesn't matter. You aren't gonna be able to convince him ...

Luffy creating techniques on the spot by copying anything he has seen or can see that's especially effective against the opponent his fighting
Luffy easily winning against someone who is one of the smartest people in East blue and moves FTE to luffy even in his base form, countering ones attack by holding on to the weapon mid air while someone was attacking at the same time, countering a slash by stopping it from the side with good timing while in mid air, Making a plan to destroy someone weapon and perfectly hitting the same spot to break someone's armor. Can think of effective ways to get himself out of sticky situations and make good use of it by attacking back, redirect a cannon ball that explodes on contact (I think) and redirects it back at the opponent, able to use his surroundings to dodge or block
East blue luffy is Comparable to Zoro who can do this...
Able to block/dodge 6 blades coming from all directions while using foreign swords coming from behind him and being severely damaged while attacking back. Able to make techniques effectively that counters someone else's technique, while being near death gets hurt even more and is able to spin a certain way to not get hit and attack back at the same time while falling, able to perfectly accurate cut a very small bogger that explodes on contact and make it not explode on him

If someone can show me any character from db and dbz that exceeds this... Than maybe I can agree with goku being as skilled as the east blue monster trio.

 

[RazumaHiroki]

I guess, I'll have to get a staff member to close this.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Stomp matches aren't allowed.

Yeah maybe equalize speed. Goku's a little too strong but I'm sure he won't abuse his range.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yee equalize speed

He will still get faster when they fight and stronger as well

Currently it looks like stomp... As sanji can't hit goku and goku will just get stronger

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Yeah maybe equalize speed. Goku's a little too strong but I'm sure he won't abuse his range.

Fluffy.
A. Goku skill stomps Sanji, since Sanji's pressure point Hax still hasn't been accepted yet this Sanji is completely haxless and can only win via Skills.
B. Even if you equalize Speed, what is Sanji going to do here?
C. It's not an exaggeration to say that East blue Sanji is literally haxless and has no win condition here.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Fluffy.
A. Goku skill stomps Sanji, since Sanji's pressure point Hax still hasn't been accepted this Sanji is completely haxless and can only win via Skills.
B. Even if you equalize Speed, what is Sanji going to do here?
C. It's not an exaggeration to say that East blue Sanji is literally haxless and has no win condition here.

There is a win condition, sanji has incredible lifting strength, he can easily incapacitate Goku, IF he is able to touch him. If you think it's still a stomp I won't argue further.

 

[Nierre]

Yeah maybe equalize speed. Goku's a little too strong but I'm sure he won't abuse his range.

Alright I'll speed equal

 

[RazumaHiroki]

There is a win condition, sanji has incredible lifting strength, he can easily incapacitate Goku, IF he is able to touch him. If you think it's still a stomp I won't argue further.

Only if he lands a hit or manage to incapacitate him and you know full well it's extremely unlikely due to Goku's skill advantage (Big emphasis on IF). Sanji's AP and LS are extremely unreliable win conditions that i personally find it ridiculous to get this stomp match accepted for the sake of it.

 

[Nierre]

Goku skill stomps Sanji, since Sanji's pressure point Hax still hasn't been accepted yet this Sanji is completely haxless and can only win via Skills.

Sanji does have a wincon. He has a massive LS advantage and has higher AP

 

[Nierre]

Sanji's AP and LS are extremely unreliable win conditions that i personally find it ridiculous to get this stomp match accepted for the sake of it.

They aren't unreliable at all?? Yes Goku is more skilled than Sanji, but Sanji can still get a hit in, if Goku tries to block any of Sanji's kicks, Goku will just get slammed to the ground because not only does he have the AP advantage but MASSIVE LS advantage. Goku's only way to actually win in cqc is by dodging all of Sanji's attacks, but you're acting as if Goku will dodge Sanji's every move, which won't be the case, he'll try blocking Sanji's attacks. Especially since this is speed equal, this is definitely not a stomp.

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Sanji does have a wincon. He has a massive LS advantage and has higher AP

Again, above. None of these are considered win conditions. Everyone can see that this is a stomp in Goku favor except Monkey up until 20 mins ago. You could have better AP than someone else, but the problem here is if the one with better AP is essentially a haxless character/material artist fights against someone several times skilled than him, his AP advantage is next to non-existent same goes for LS. And that's coming from someone who usually tries to argue for Sanji's win conds.

 

[Nierre]

You could have better AP than someone else, but the problem here is if the one with better AP is essentially a haxless character/material artist fights against someone several times skilled than him, his AP advantage is next to non-existent same goes for LS.

Except Goku doesn't have hax either. This is a pure cqc fight, where Sanji's wincons are just as valid as Goku's. Only difference is Goku's wincons are easier to reach than Sanji's. I don't want to have a biased outlook since I'm the OP, but you're acting like Sanji doesn't stand a chance, except he does.

If Goku tries to block Sanji's kicks, he gets knocked down or away. If Goku gets knocked down, Sanji has enough LS to incapacitate him. As for AP, Sanji can just block Goku's attacks, he has higher dura, he also has far more stamina than Goku at this point. This is a speed equal match. The only advantage Goku actually has is skill. Goku doesn't use his equipment in close combat and neither would he use Kamehameha.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Actually I agree with razmahiroku man, Goku is not in any danger, since he can beat sanji without equipment, but if he's at all in trouble, he can start abusing range with kamehameha powerpole or worst of all nimbus which leaves sanji completely helpless.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Everyone can see that this is a stomp in Goku favor except Monkey up until 20 mins ago.

The first time I saw this match I literally saw no wincons for sanji.... Which is why I never voted for him. Goku ain't skillstomping at all...

 

[Nierre]

he can start abusing range with kamehameha powerpole or worst of all nimbus which leaves sanji completely helpless.

Every fight in Dragonball where it was a close combat fight, Goku never used Powerpole let alone Nimbus. Unless the enemy can fly, he's not using any of them. He never has and he has no reason to in this match. As for Kamehameha, he's more likely to use it compared to his equipment but that's not going to be considered a stomp just because of kamehameha. He would never use it unless he's fighting someone who's ranged or he's losing. That's still a very valid wincon. Also Sanji could just dodge it?? I mean Unless Goku does Kamehameha to boost his speed, Sanji can just dodge a kamehameha since speed equal.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Every fight in Dragonball where it was a close combat fight, Goku never used Powerpole let alone Nimbus. Unless the enemy can fly, he's not using any of them. He never has and he has no reason to in this match.

Goku uses power pole alot... And nimbus if he's in trouble

 

[Nierre]

Goku will use this fight to test his skills in close combat. Sanji is a close fighter. Goku is someone who plays fair, he's not going to abuse nimbus or Powerpole when he's losing, unless it's life or death, which isn't going to get that point since it's win by KO or incapacitation. As for Kamehameha, it's just another valid wincon.

Goku uses power pole alot... And nimbus if he's in trouble

He only used them against an army, and against people who abuse range or can fly. Sanji literally fits none of them.

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Except Goku doesn't have hax either. This is a pure cqc fight, where Sanji's wincons are just as valid as Goku's. Only difference is Goku's wincons are easier to reach than Sanji's. I don't want to have a biased outlook since I'm the OP, but you're acting like Sanji doesn't stand a chance, except he does.

If Goku tries to block Sanji's kicks, he gets knocked down or away. If Goku gets knocked down, Sanji has enough LS to incapacitate him. As for AP, Sanji can just block Goku's attacks, he has higher dura, he also has far more stamina than Goku at this point. This is a speed equal match. The only advantage Goku actually has is skill. Goku doesn't use his equipment in close combat and neither would he use Kamehameha.

The AP advantage isn't that massive that it could be considered a win condition nor knock out Goku temporarily even if Sanji lands a few hits on Goku, he gets up and beats him up, considering that he has insane pain tolerance and other advantages, I really fail to see how a small AP Advantage for Sanji is the deciding factor in this.

That's precisely the point, they are both martial artists. We have already established that Goku massively outskills Sanji, or are we going to conveniently ignore the conversation you had with Monkey? East blue Sanji is far too inexperienced with skilled fighters aka justifiable the weakest, most haxless and inexperienced version.

To say that Goku, according to you guys fought dozens of skilled material artists who had over 60 years of experience, also being trained by a super skilled material artist how is Sanji consistently going to land a hit on someone like him?

Sanji's skill feat was beating a black-bell fishman karate user and that's all. If someone were to mention how Goku can casually dodge attacks from enemies less skilled than him, then yeah it's a stomp no matter how you spin it around.