Something that always bothered me about Immeasurable Speed

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Something that always bothered me about immeasurable speed was the claim that it is superior to infinite speed. Let me explain why:

Immeasurable speed is called immeasurable speed, because it is immeasurable. Lol. That is to say, Immeasurable speed is speed that cannot be quantified. You cannot put a number or value on immeasurable speed. Therefore, if you cannot quantify immeasurable speed, how can you make the claim that it is superior to infinite speed?

Speed is distance over time or d/t.. Immeasurable speed is traveling across time. The formula for immeasurable speed would be time over time, or t/t. A character took two seconds to travel two minutes in time vs A character took two seconds to travel 2 meters in space. How can you logically claim one is superior or faster than the other? They aren't even using the same parameters.

 

[Jaften]

It's superior in the sense that an infinitely fast character can achieve an infinite number of actions in literally zero time after the start of the match since they can move infinitely fast... while an immeasurably fast character can achieve an infinite number of actions but an arbitrary amount of time before the match even started.

The infinitely fast character is at the apex of what can be done within the framework of conventional "linear time".
The immeasurably fast character doesn't even care about conventional linear time and can casually time travel by walking.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

while an immeasurably fast character can achieve an infinite number of actions but an arbitrary amount of time before the match even started.

But isn't that two separate actions? If the battle starts at 0:00:00, and immeasurable person walks to the time of -0:00:01 and then does an action. In order for them to do an infinite amount of actions before 0:00:00, they would require infinite speed. Theoretically, you can have an immeasurable person walk to the time of -0:00:01 and then do a finite amount of moves before 0:00:00 without the need for infinite speed. I guess you can say, this is what makes it superior, but anyone with time travel could also theoretically do that too.

 

[Jaften]

But isn't that two separate actions? If the battle starts at 0:00:00, and immeasurable person walks to the time of -0:00:01 and then does an action. In order for them to do an infinite amount of actions before 0:00:00, they would require infinite speed. Theoretically, you can have an immeasurable person walk to the time of -0:00:01 and then do a finite amount of moves before 0:00:00 without the need for infinite speed. I guess you can say, this is what makes it superior, but anyone with time travel could also theoretically do that too.

No, because they don't need to "reenter" linear time to do actions. They aren't using a time machine or teleporting through time, they just don't care about the passage of linear time. They're always that fast. So from the perspective of the infinitely fast character, shit the immeasurably fast character does... has already happened. The infinite speed character is infinitely faster than any finite speed character as they can achieve infinite actions in zero time, but the immeasurable speed character is infinitely faster than the infinite speed character because they can achieve infinite actions at any point in the timeline whenever they want.

 

[Jaften]

There is literally a section on the Speed page about the difference between infinite and immeasurable speed, you should read it.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

No, because they don't need to "reenter" linear time to do actions. They aren't using a time machine or teleporting through time, they just don't care about the passage of linear time. They're always that fast. So from the perspective of the infinitely fast character, shit the immeasurably fast character does... has already happened.

So to a non-immeasurable character, the immeasurable character's action has already happened?

There is literally a section on the Speed page about the difference between infinite and immeasurable speed, you should read it.

Yes. I've already read the page. It doesn't make much sense, and the things you're saying aren't on it.

 

[Jaften]

So to a non-immeasurable character, the immeasurable character's action has already happened?

Yeah. The infinite speed character ("Alex") could throw as many punches as he wanted at the immeasurable speed character ("Bob"), all of which land in zero time. "Bob" decides to dodge backwards in time while also punching past "Alex" in the face an arbitrary number of times. Since this happens in the past from the perspective of "Alex", he has no chance to react to it and no means of defense—the punches hit him instantaneously retroactively, infinitely faster than even his infinite reaction time. He was already punched, so he couldn't dodge no matter how much he tried.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah. The infinite speed character ("Alex") could throw as many punches as he wanted at the immeasurable speed character ("Bob"), all of which land in zero time. "Bob" decides to dodge backwards in time while also punching past "Alex" in the face an arbitrary number of times. Since this happens in the past from the perspective of "Alex", he has no chance to react to it and no means of defense—the punches hit him instantaneously retroactively, infinitely faster than even his infinite reaction time. He was already punched, so he couldn't dodge no matter how much he tried.

Yeah, it's ******* broken.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Yeah. The infinite speed character ("Alex") could throw as many punches as he wanted at the immeasurable speed character ("Bob"), all of which land in zero time. "Bob" decides to dodge backwards in time while also punching past "Alex" in the face an arbitrary number of times. Since this happens in the past from the perspective of "Alex", he has no chance to react to it and no means of defense—the punches hit him instantaneously retroactively, infinitely faster than even his infinite reaction time.

So let's say another character John is fighting Bob. Bob decides to punch John in the past, but past John is able to block Bob's attack from the future, would that count for John having immeasurable speed too?

 

[Jaften]

So let's say another character John is fighting Bob. Bob decides to punch John in the past, but past John is able to block Bob's attack from the future, would that count for John having immeasurable speed too?

If you have a feat of reacting to immeasurable speed, you have immeasurable reaction time at least, likely immeasurable combat speed, but not necessarily full immeasurable speed.

 

[Jaften]

Think of it kind of like fighting a two-dimensional character as a three-dimensional human. The 2D character can only fight you on the length and width axes, but you can attack from the third dimension, height, that the 2D character can't even perceive of, and thus they can't react to or defend against such attacks. That's what immeasurable speed is like, only with time instead of space.

 

[Jaften]

So to a non-immeasurable character, the immeasurable character's action has already happened?

Or in the future, suddenly and without warning. It goes both ways. Bob can instantaneously attack Alex from anytime, basically. His fists travel through space AND time. He could potentially stand in front of you 5 seconds ago and punch the future you that exists 5 seconds from now and there's dick all you could do to stop it.

Immeasurable speed also covers moving in other higher dimensions as well, not just the fourth dimension (time), so you can have immeasurable speed characters that are infinitely faster than other immeasurable speed characters because they move on a higher dimension.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Immeasurable speed also covers moving in other higher dimensions as well, not just the fourth dimension (time), so you can have immeasurable speed characters that are infinitely faster than other immeasurable speed characters because they move on a higher dimension.

That I don't get, because speed is scalar so it should be the same in any spatial dimension.

 

[Jaften]

That I don't get, because speed is scalar so it should be the same in any spatial dimension.

Theoretically yeah that's ideally how we would handle it.

Realistically we can't really measure it, because how do you even approach measuring the speed of something that moves in ways you, a human that lives in a three-dimensional world and perceives the fourth dimension of time as a series of snapshot instants, can't hope to perceive in a meaningful way? How do you measure the distance between two hyperspatial objects and the hypertime it took the character to travel between the two? How do you obtain a meaningful frame of reference to do that?

It's quite challenging to write conventional stories about characters who actually behave like a proper immeasurable speed character due to how they don't experience time linearly, which is something humans are very used to and have difficulty separating themselves from. Oh no, The Bad Thing™ is going to happen or has already happened? Who cares, just go back or forwards in time and stop it from happening. Big deal, you can literally just walk there. Don't have the power to stop it? Well okay that's fine too, you can just ignore it because you're not chained to the "inexorable march of time", so you never actually have to face the moment The Bad Thing™ happens. You can literally live as long as you want whenever you want. Hell, as long as it doesn't end the universe you can literally skip past The Bad Thing™ and live far into the future. The only way The Bad Thing™ can be a legitimate threat to the immeasurable speed character is if The Bad Thing™ is also immeasurable speed (or affects all of spacetime). This is difficult to write convincingly as it doesn't obey the same "start at A and travel to B over time" storytelling style as normal stories, given that the characters can casually time travel as easily as moving.