Some Mario Speed Revisions

[AKM sama]

Speed: Massively FTL+ (Capable of reacting while being launched by a Launch Star. Capable of dodging attacks from a Grand Star-powered Bowser, who can tag Starship Mario with his meteors and flew the center of the universe in a short time. Capable of reacting to Bowser and Bowser Jr riding the Koopa Clown Car, which flew towards the sun and from their home planet to a nearby galaxy in a short period of time.)

Trying to fact-check Mario's speed section is a pain, and it needs some rework.

1. Capable of reacting while being launched by a Launch Star

Here's the blog that is linked on the page. The blog makes some assumptions about the distance between The Comet Observatory and Melty Molten Galaxy based on certain tidbits. The problem is, it can't be fact-checked because no source is given in the blog.

It’s safe to assume the distance between galaxies for each number, for obvious reasons. Good Egg Galaxy, with a number of 1, is outright said to be the closest.
The galaxy with the highest number is the Melty Molten Galaxy, with 52.

I mean, citation needed. The blog needs to provide sources of such important information. It is not the responsibility of a regular viewer to just know these things by default, it is the responsibility of the blog to make every source available. These things should have been on the blog before it was accepted and linked on the main profile.

It takes Mario 5 seconds to fly to the galaxy.

Again, no video of said feat, or any other evidence of this timeframe. Upon asking some people, I found out that this is the feat in question. And after viewing the video, I have no idea where the timeframe of 5 seconds is coming from. There is a long transition in between his launch and landing. And 5 seconds seems like an insane highball (plus, if this timeframe is based on the in-game cinematic timing, then from the same scene we can also see that the speed of launch and landing were not impressive if we are taking that into consideration, something that @Agnaa brought up in the comments).

I think this blog needs rework. The relevant sources should be cited and a better timeframe should be used based on some proper reasoning. And the wording of the justification should preferably be improved.

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2. Koopa Clown Car

Capable of reacting to Bowser and Bowser Jr riding the Koopa Clown Car

Here are some instances of Mario reacting to Koopa Clown Car. My issue with this justification is obvious. Koopa Clown Car is a vehicle capable of spaceflight and as per the justification, it can fly to the sun or a nearby galaxy from Bowser's home planet within some unknown time period. Being a vehicle, it can accelerate/decelerate and achieve its maximum speed during such travels involving long distances. But the same cannot be said about them during the instances where they are used to fight Mario. I can drive a car at a speed of 100 while travelling long distances but I wouldn't be able to reach such speeds when I require more mobility to battle someone in a small football field. Similarly, Mario cannot be assumed to be reacting to Koopa Clown Car at their full speed.

Either a valid case of such reaction should be listed, where Mario is actually seen reacting to the full speed of Koopa Clown Car while travelling interplanetary distances or such, or this justification should be removed.

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3. Bowser tagging Lubba's spaceship

and he could tag and shoot down Lubbas spaceship with his meteors

The blog is listed as evidence, but the blog only calculates the speed of Lubba's spaceship while travelling through galaxies, which is a separate instance. I had to ask others for the part where Bowser supposedly tags this spaceship. This happens off-screen and is a separate instance than what is calculated in the calc, so unfortunately we don't know the details. All we know is that they ran into Bowser who blasted them with meteors (Bowser's meteors are just big rocks). I also went through a previous thread where this was discussed, and @Eficiente brought up some valid arguments but the discussion died down without concluding.

The justification assumes this single scenario:

• They were traveling at full speed while Bowser hit them with meteors from behind

While there could be a number of other scenarios:

• They were not traveling at full speed and suddenly found Bowser
• Bowser caught them off-guard and they didn't see the meteors coming
• They came to a halt in their confusion or out of surprise when they found him before them
• Bowser found them while they were taking a stop
• They weren't able to dodge the meteors thrown toward them from the sides or from the front, because of low mobility at high speeds (keep in mind that if I notice a speeding car coming toward me traveling at a speed of 200 that is about to go past me, I can get in position, take aim, time my throw and fling several rocks at it and some of them are bound to hit, that doesn't mean I am as fast as the car)

Point being, we don't really have any solid reason to scale Bowser to the top speed of Lubba's spaceship. I think there are already other feats so they should preferably be used.

 

[Seol404]

Fully in agreement with this, the speed feats used are very poorly justified.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Agree, these need either recalcs if not removals. If there are other MFTL+ speeds surely those have been properly calced.

 

[RethPo]

Ummm. There is one speed feat id like to bring up and thats brobot and mario flying and fighting at mftl+ speeds through space, crossing interstellar distances.

 

[Seol404]

Ummm. There is one speed feat id like to bring up and thats brobot and mario flying and fighting at mftl+ speeds through space, crossing interstellar distances.

If you see an airplane from the ground it will appear as though it is passing by hundreds of stars, but the airplane is not MFTL+, it's just perspective. Unless there is proof that this is more than perspective, it shouldn't be used.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The Koopa Clown Car shit would scale because Bowser and Jr. themselves need those reactions and have reacted ( to Mini Stars in MP9) while in them traveling at whatever speeds.

Even if you get rid of the 5 second timeframe these feats are still unquestionably MFTL+. We also see Mario come from a Galaxy's arm to Starship Mario outside the Galaxy in seconds when collecting a Power Star, so it's kind of a more direct feat that would have similar results anyways.

The tagging Lubba's ship thing is true. But we should consider even a casual flight speed is still FTL for traveling between galaxies in short timeframes.

All that needs to change are the justification for the tier.

 

[RethPo]

If you see an airplane from the ground it will appear as though it is passing by hundreds of stars, but the airplane is not MFTL+, it's just perspective. Unless there is proof that this is more than perspective, it shouldn't be used.

....Yeah, but the camera movement completely disproves that. Its not about brobots movement, its about the stars movement. If you follow the airplane with a camera like in that scene those stars wont even move out from the view camera (till you start going around the globe but thats due to perspective).

Say theres two really tall lamp posts about ten meters apart. If you stand a few meters away from the first post and walk ten meters to the side, the first post will disapear or move to the corner of your eye. If you stand miles away from the posts just viewing them over the horison, and step tens of meters to the left, theyll remain in your field of vision due to distance.

The fact that mario is viewing stars that are lightyears apart moving from the view of the camera that fast means that they would have to be crossing interstellar speeds... or just flying in circles (i think other series like contra have similar stuff iirc)

 

[RethPo]

For the record though i agree with whats said in the op for now. For lubbas spaceship the only context is that they ran into bowser and he started blasting them with meteors which is closer to being caught by suprise (intentionally or not) more than anything.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Not trying to start a war but don't verses like Kirby and Sonic have cases of stellar objects blurring in the background or moving as they travel that were considered speed feats?

I'm just curious what the difference is with the Brobot thing.

 

[Seol404]

Not trying to start a war but don't verses like Kirby and Sonic have cases of stellar objects blurring in the background or moving as they travel that were considered speed feats?

I'm just curious what the difference is with the Brobot thing.

There are a few for Kirby I believe, not sure about Sonic, I have some contentions with a few of the Kirby speed feats, but that's not a discussion for right now.

 

[Theuser789]

Sonic only has one, which isn't the main feat used currently

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Here are the sources for the uncited claims in Cal’s blog (besides the time frame, which seems to come from sheer cinematic timing). A different calc made by DarkDragonMedeus improvised low end and mid end time frames, so I think it might be fine to do the same for this feat. If the distance is still acceptable these would be the results:

One hour: 1,139,555,658,868 c

One minute: 68,373,339,465,397 c

Feat remains MFTL+, the only thing that’s debatable is whether or not Mario’s Reactions scale to the full speed of the launch.

I agree with Bowser tagging the ship being disregarded, and I’m not sure about the Koopa Clown Car feats since one has a cut and I don’t think the other has a determinate time frame.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Honestly we should just use DDM's calc as one of the justifications anyways.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Was one of the endings for DDM's calcs were chosen? If not then it would need to be specified to be accepted

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Posted reworked Launch Star calc.

“Massively FTL+ (Capable of reacting while being launched by a Launch Star. Can keep pace with Power Star users, which can fly from the Trial Galaxies located on the edge of the universe. Kept up with and defeated a Grand Star-powered Bowser, who flew the center of the universe in a short time)”

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Was one of the endings for DDM's calcs were chosen? If not then it would need to be specified to be accepted

Low end was accepted

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I don't see the issue with the mid-end personally. Mario was already far into the trillions so a slight quad speed isn't that unreasonable but that's irrelevant here.

 

[Chariot190]

The launch star shit is still MFTL+, there's galaxies explicitly at the edge of the universe in game, and galaxies, well. not that. Even if the launch takes Mario like ten years to get there, it'd still be MFTL+. So while the justification is a bit ass, the things still launch at MFTL+ speeds, just at some unquantifiable degree due to a few reasons.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

The launch star shit is still MFTL+, there's galaxies explicitly at the edge of the universe in game, and galaxies, well. not that. Even if the launch takes Mario like ten years to get there, it'd still be MFTL+. So while the justification is a bit ass, the things still launch at MFTL+ speeds, just at some unquantifiable degree due to a few reasons.

Yup, it is definately Massively FTL+

 

[TheGatememer]

There is also the Prankster Comet calc. dunno if it would be an outlier or apply to anyone

 

[Foxthefox1000]

This is also a good link to apply to the profile for "traveling between galaxies"

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Low end was accepted

Ok, so now we have a proper feat to scale

 

[AKM sama]

The Koopa Clown Car shit would scale because Bowser and Jr. themselves need those reactions and have reacted ( to Mini Stars in MP9) while in them traveling at whatever speeds.

Pilots don't scale to their aircrafts. And do you have evidence for the latter? If I am getting it right, that is a case of relative motion, so it wouldn't matter.

....Yeah, but the camera movement completely disproves that. Its not about brobots movement, its about the stars movement. If you follow the airplane with a camera like in that scene those stars wont even move out from the view camera (till you start going around the globe but thats due to perspective).

That's just how perspective works. Take your own camera and move it around in front of your eyes in the night sky and you'll see similar effects. That thing is not usable.

Not trying to start a war but don't verses like Kirby and Sonic have cases of stellar objects blurring in the background or moving as they travel that were considered speed feats?

Probably worth taking a look into. That is a very flawed logic to calc a speed feat. But that's for another thread.

Posted reworked Launch Star calc.

“Massively FTL+ (Capable of reacting while being launched by a Launch Star. Can keep pace with Power Star users, which can fly from the Trial Galaxies located on the edge of the universe. Kept up with and defeated a Grand Star-powered Bowser, who flew the center of the universe in a short time)”

The streamable video in your calc isn't working for me btw. Also, what is the basis of assuming the timeframes of 1 minute and 1 hour? Should probably explain that with sources.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just a heads up, the entirety of Super Mario Galaxy literally takes place all in one Earth Night.

 

[AKM sama]

Just a heads up, the entirety of Super Mario Galaxy literally takes place all in one Earth Night.

Is there a source for that info?

 

[Seol404]

The Koopa Clown Car shit would scale because Bowser and Jr. themselves need those reactions and have reacted ( to Mini Stars in MP9) while in them traveling at whatever speeds.

So I assume the scene you are referring to is the one at the end where Bowser is trying to catch the mini stars and they dodge him, but that shouldn't scale Bowser to their full speed, only the speed difference between them and the Clown Car. If I am on top of a train going 500km per hour, and another train comes up behind me going 550km per hour, and I try to grab an object off the top of that train, I'm not reacting to an object moving 550km per hour, because I am also in motion.

Also, I do not care if this logic can be used to downgrade a ton of verses, because I don't think that would be a bad thing.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

But the Cars are traveling at MFTL+ speeds. Relative motion aside, Jr. sees his dad fall and makes a quick dive for him. Pilots would have a hard time accomplishing that as fast as Jr. noticed and reacted. There's also the fact Jr.'s mental thoughts may be aligned with the Clown Car anyways as there's a ton of evidence for it. I was going to make a CRT to refurbish his profile but it kinda fell at the wayside with so much other things of higher priority.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

And again, we have other feats anyways. Losing these would do nothing anyways

 

[AKM sama]

But the Cars are traveling at MFTL+ speeds. Relative motion aside, Jr. sees his dad fall and makes a quick dive for him.

Still falls under relative motion.

And again, we have other feats anyways. Losing these would do nothing anyways

The point is to make the profiles more accurate. It doesn't matter what their speeds are. The information in the profiles should be correct.

 

[Seol404]

Bump

 

[Seol404]

Unless anyone has objections, I think it would be best to remove the speed feats, and use what is left, although if those are contentious it would be best to discuss them here before changing anything.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Just link the DDM calc, Green Comet, the statement Power Stars were scattered across the universe (also a statement said about the Green Stars), and link the video I showed earlier where Mario goes from a galaxy to Starship Mario in seconds with the Power Star's granted flight (though World 5 is a better feat because it shows him coming from between multiple galaxies)

There. Easy.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

This Clown Car argument of "when it has been used to fight Mario it's shown slower speeds" is also kind of strange to me.

There are many cases of vehicles capable of FTL travel showing lesser feats but we still scale them. The Warp Star is a good example, for instance. Arguing "well they clearly aren't going FTL in THIS instance" is the oldest, most asinine argument against speed ratings in the book. Literally ALL of Bowser's ships and vehicles showcase MFTL+ travel in Galaxy and in MP quite a few times and very casually at that. They can pilot these with expertise and perform dodges in them just like any other credible pilot reaction scaling, and in Jr.'s case he has an argument for controlling it with thought. Why wouldn't they scale? Because of some silly "anti-feats" in gameplay? You talk of relative motion but what if the characters are perceiving each other at those speeds and we just see it as slow? Like, c'mon I actually cannot believe this argument isn't being given more scrutiny.

 

[AKM sama]

A helicopter can travel at 160mph in a straight line going from point A to point B, it doesn't mean it can go at 160mph in a limited space while fighting a person on the ground when it frequently requires twists and turns. Your argument ignores common sense and how physics works. For the last time, pilots don't scale to their vehicles. Everything in your comment is just... wrong.

Anyway,

Just a heads up, the entirety of Super Mario Galaxy literally takes place all in one Earth Night.

Still awaiting source for this. It's important to the calc because that's the source of assuming the timeframe. It should be evidenced in the blog.

Just link the DDM calc, Green Comet, the statement Power Stars were scattered across the universe (also a statement said about the Green Stars), and link the video I showed earlier where Mario goes from a galaxy to Starship Mario in seconds with the Power Star's granted flight (though World 5 is a better feat because it shows him coming from between multiple galaxies)

Please go into detail about the other feats (how they are calced and how they scale to characters, etc.) that are not discussed here and if you are bringing something new to link in the profiles. New stuff would require some kind of discussion.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Others have literally explained above, the Observatory is located within the orbit of the Earth's atmosphere, and if you pay attention to the background. You can see that it's dark but that there are carnival lights.

This image is above gives evidence of what the Earth looks like at Night, while the one below shows the star shaped night lights on the Mushroom Kingdom

And there's not a single day and night cycle throughout the entire game, and it literally likes like this throughout the entire game. There's also no "Going to sleep to wait for the next day" scenario either. And it also clearly did not take years despite traveling billions of lightyears to reach the edge of the galaxy given Mario is still the same age.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

They scale because the Power Stars enable flight and are known to amp speed from 64. Just a single one can enable a Starship to travel to another galaxy. Mario also managed to grab Peach who was falling from a ship when using the flight of a Grand Star. She wasn't in relative motion because a fall isn't going to be MFTL+ either

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Posted reworked Launch Star calc.

“Massively FTL+ (Capable of reacting while being launched by a Launch Star. Can keep pace with Power Star users, which can fly from the Trial Galaxies located on the edge of the universe. Kept up with and defeated a Grand Star-powered Bowser, who flew the center of the universe in a short time)”

…Okay, in accordance to recent standard changes some of the Flight speed feats may not be applicable to Reactions. I’ll list them for re-examination

• Power Stars flying across galaxies and such
• Bowser flying to the center of the universe

 

[Seol404]

Since we may be removing these feats, what are the other speed feats in the series, it would be best to look over them here rather than starting a whole new thread.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Origami King had Mario dodge lightning.



Dunno what will be overall consistent speed stat but this seems fair.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Lumas consistently are capable of performing fancy U-turns while maintaining great speed. And there are still reactions to attacks with Massively FTL+ attack speed.