Some Changes in Undertale

[AidenBrooks999]

Like the title says, I want to suggest some changes for Undertale (some minor, others not so much). First: the scaling:

Small Town level to Small Town level+ = 20 to 30 (From Papyrus and Tsunderplane to RG 01/02, Final Froggit and Base MTT)

Town to Town+ = 31 to 46 (CORE monsters being Town, and Muffet reaching Town+ by a small margin)

Large Town to Large Town+ = 47 to 62 (Large Town Undyne and MTT EX... Just that)

Small City to Small City+ = 63 to 73

City to City+ = 74 to 89 (Asgore and Toriel (City, likely+))

And Mountain level for NEO's Low End


And here is the big one... About the speed: Shouldn't be everyone just MHS+? Napstablook feat or is a misinterpreted or an outlier.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Bump.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Might as well give something here....

For the Speed, i kind of want to say yes and just put them ast MHS+ but considering how much of a shitstorm debate it becomes when dicsussing about it, i'm just gonna stay out of it.

For the AP and Dura scaling, i guess this seems somewhat reasonable.

Would like to hear what the others say on this...

 

[ThePerpetual]

I... guess? What's the logic behind the number scaling? Every 10 is one up or something? If so, do you think this would work in reverse as well...?

Edit: I have no problem with the speed bit personally: the whole point of the Mach 3101 feat was that Napsta's was heavily contested, I had though when I made it: though I believe that someone one explained why this was a low-end...

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

I don't get the number scaling.Shouldn't 40 be 2 stronger than 20 etc?

 

[ThePerpetual]

I think the argument is that it is non-linear...

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Even if we assume that the power level increases in a non linear way it would be impossible to define the levels without knowing the mathematical function.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's nonsense to have a difference of 9-B to 8-A for a 15 stats when a difference of 55 stats only get from Low 7-C to 7-C. That's all I have to say about the matter. We have to find a way to properly scales instead of such extreme differences.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

It's nonsense to have a difference of 9-B to 8-A for a 15 stats when a difference of 55 stats only get from Low 7-C to 7-C. That's all I have to say about the matter. We have to find a way to properly scales instead of such extreme differences.

This Is the best I can think

Considering that Tsunderplane is ATK 25 (~2 Kilotons for her calc), and Papyrus with 20 stills Small Town.

The canine unit have 1 stats of difference each other (Lesser 12, Doggo 13, Dogi 14, Greater 15) and they have a from Building to Multi-City Block.

And From Froggit with 4 to Napstablook with 10, we only have Wall to Room level.


With that, we can even have Asgore at Planet level or something

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Can't we just settle for Unknown with those too much below or above a certain feat, like with Kyoko from PMMM? I think it's fine to have Papyrus at Small Town for example, but assuming the dogs are MCB or smth like that doesn't sound right to me. Neither does Undyne's or Asgore's tiering of Town or NapstablooK's.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Also, Froggit shouldn't even be 9-B. Reminder that someone with -12 ATK can harm base Frisk (Thus be Wall level), so someone with 4 should not even be 9-B and more like "Unknown (Much stronger than Snowdrake's Mom, but to an unknown extent)". So having Napstablook at Tier 9 simply out of scaling to Froggt makes little sense too.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Then nobody can't be more than Tier 9


Because in a Pacifist you basically make no progress

You have to receive the same damage from everyone


All that you said is PIS/Game Mechanics working for the same of the game.

And why only Snowdrake's mom has AP? All the amalgamates can harm Frisk

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

..What are you even on about...?

There is a reason we don't just scale everyone to ******* 2-B for fightning Frisk: Frisk's power depends on their DT. So stats are the only way to know how strong monsters are to each others.

But we only know who is stronger than who, we don't know the true gap in power. Just look at Asgore and Undying. 19 stats difference was enough to jump from Tier 7 to Tier 2. So you can't just assume that the Dogs for example are MCB compared to Tsunderplane's Small Town. We have no idea how big the gap is.

Which is why most monsters should be Unknown. We only have three feats with stats, those being:

Wall level: Base Frisk. Literally anything that can harm Frisk is Wall, which is every monsters. But it's a very minimum, so you can't say Napstablook is only "At least 9-B" again. -12 of ATK is at least Wall.

Small Town level: For Tsunderplane, 25 of ATK. Anyone higher than that is stronger by an Unknown margin, and everyone below that is below Small Town but above Wall. Again we can't know their exact tiering. Putting borderline random guessess like "Building level" doesn't work at all.

Multiverse level: For 99 of ATK. Since that gap in power is so huge, we can only even attempt to say that NEO could be in that ballpark, as it would make little sense for Asgore to be infinitely above his fellow monsters.


As for the Amalgamates, Wall level is literally the barest Minimum any of them can get, but we don't know any of their stats other than Snowdrake's Mother, so again putting them at "At least Wall" is just an incredible lowball.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

That's incredibly unfair

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Bro. What the heck. What do you think would be better then? We literally CANNOT put random rating without feats just because someone is in-between two feats in term of strength. That's not how we work. At best if someone is incredibly strong compared to a feat which is usually high-end for the tier, we can say they are a tier higher, like with That Man from Guilty Gear. But what you are proposing is just stacking that to end up a whole tier higher than the original feat with 7-B Asgore.

I mean if you really want to we can just do "At least X, likely higher" but that seems even more unfair than just unknown imo, since that limits the character to a feat they should basically fodderize. And again for people like the Royal Dogs, scaling them to Wall level is just insane lowball, and since Tsunderplane is quite a lot stronger than them we can't scale them to Low 7-C properly either.

 

[DontTalk]

Personally I would prefer "at least" ratings to outright unknown (possibly used together with "at most" were it makes sense), simply because unknown will not help a reader at all. If it's unknown the reader could assume some arbitary level, which is just worse.

Aside from that I actually agree with Saikou in this case.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

^You that like it's a rare thing. Which it seems to actually be.

Well I'm not against putting people like Mettaton, Ruin monsters, Papyrus and CORE monsters at levels like "At least X", but to me, it just seems like Undyne and EX are way too above the rating for them to be just rated as that. We can always just put "Unknown, at least X, likely higher" like with Saitama.

Also again the Royal Dogs are not close enough to Low 7-C to be rated "At most Low 7-C", so imo they are the only one that would be granted At most 8-A or something, since the Low 7-C calc was low end Low 7-C IIRC.

Also, imo people like Asgore and Napstablook should be outright "Unknown", as they are stuck nearly exactly between two tier to scale to.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Just going to put what I think is best:

9-B: Snowdrake's Mother. (Damaged Frisk with seemingly very low determination)

At least 9-B, likely higher: Glad Dummy, Sans, Ruins Monsters, Monster Kid (Should be much stronger than Snowdrake's mother to an unknown extent)

Unknow: Napstablook, Snowding Monsters except Jerry (Much stronger than Snowdrake's Mother and most likely not very far from monsters like [Dogs] and Papyrus)

At most 8-A: Snowdin Dogs (Shouldn't be too much below Papyrus)

At least 8-A, likely Low 7-C: Papyrus, Waterfall Monsters (Slighlty weaker than monsters like Tsunderplane)

Low 7-C: Royal Guards, Mettaton, Hotland monsters (Should be comparable to Tsunderplane)

At least Low 7-C, likely higher: Muffet, CORE Monsters (Much stronger than monsters like Tsunderplane to an unknown degree)

Unknow, at least Low 7-C, likely far higher: Undyne, Mettaton EX (Far stronger than monsters like [CORE Monsters] and Muffet)

Unknow: Asgore, Toriel and NEO Low End (Vastly superior to even Undyne to an unknown degree and not too far away from Undying, but it is unclear if they scale to her)

2-B: Undying (Blablahblah scales to Chara hurr durr I'm a fish)

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

I kinda feel like Undertale is being overrated.

As mentioned somewhere above, stats don't mean too much in Undertale. Just compare the basic Froggit (4 Attack) to say, Undyne the Undying (99 Attack). I would expect that 4% of an attack that can damage Chara to be rather powerful. Also, sans is self defining here.

This doesn't even mention the hidden stats actually used in calculating damage done/taken.

Normally, I'd make an arguement about how even Froggit could harm Chara given the chance (thus implying all Undertale characters are at tiers 3 & 2 ish), but I'm pretty sure that the last time I pointed that out, it got shot down for some reason.

 

[Promestein]

I believe it has been mentioned that stats don't scale linearly, and Froggit harming Chara would obviously just be game mechanics.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

Oh, ok. Didn't hear that before, and what you said I already theorized about - though I wasn't sure if others had my view.

Still though, even by exponential growth, that's one hell of a power growth. Probably a effect of Determination, however.

 

[Stevethebarbarian]

On top of that, the last time you see a Froggit is in the RUINS where Pacifist Frisk isn't very determined, and where Genocide Frisk has low LV. But of course, that argument doesn't work for Moldsmall... Nonetheless. I personally feel that unless the Napstablook calc is accepted, the RUINS monsters can't be rated far above peak human.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Ruins monsters are much above Snowdrake's Mother, who can harm Frisk in base, who is Wall in dura.

 

[Stevethebarbarian]

True enough, but peak humans are Wall. Not far above that (Perhaps Small Building) sounds like the RUINS monsters, unless you take a massive logical leap and assume that the RUINS monsters are literally more than infinitely stronger than Snowdrake's Mother.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Peak Humans aren't wall. Wall is explictely superhuman.

Also like I said we can't assume a tier for them like 9-A.

 

[Stevethebarbarian]

Well, damn it.

I really don't know the system well enough yet. But they're close to wall, anyway. Either way, you're absolutely right that we can't really assume stats for most monsters. I mean, the way their stats and fights work is incredibly inconsitent and incongruous in many cases. For instance, you can't one-shot the dogs, but you can one-shot Undyne and Papyrus. I mean, obviously killing intent increases your damage against monsters, but does that mean you want to kill Undyne and Papyrus more than the dogs for some reason? Unless some revalation comes through, my personal (and not very important) vote goes toward listing them as "At least" tier whatever.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Most likely Chara has more bloodlust towards Undyne and other boss than random mooks.

Between killing a boss and a random useless mook, which do you want to kill the most?

 

[Stevethebarbarian]

True enough, but remember, you weren't aiming at Undyne, but at Monster Kid. Maybe Chara was just getting fed up with all his annoying BS. I know I was.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"In my way"

Kid was in the way, they wanted his shit dead.

Either way, it would be an outlier/gameplay mechanics for mook to tank more than bosses.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

As a UT fan, just gonna ask a favor...Just leave it alone, it's fine as is, it has it's high character and low characters, just leave it as is.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Talking to who?

Having characters at an arbistrary and baseless stat like 8-C or 9-A is just outright wrong according to our rules. We can't just leave it.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Talkin in general, tired of seeing "UT DOWNGRADE OMGZ INACCURATE" or "UT UPGRADE STOP DOWNPLAYING" but I digress, I understand that and maybe, just maybe, we just scale by AT value from the attack value of Tsuderecopter and the Dura of Frisk like we originally did, the lowest tier being 9-B because of the calc of Frisk's dura being wall level due to falling from the top of a mountain to the underground and we scale the AT value from Tsuderecopter to higher monsters?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

That's pretty much what I said yeah.

However, again, monsters in-between the two feats are kinda hard to scale, like Napstablook, who should probably just put as Unknown like I listed above.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

I agree with that, logical conclusion...Or we could say "at least wall level, likely higher"

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Since even the weaker/weakest monsters are able to harm base "True Pacifist" Frisk.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well it's again mainly from Snowdrake's mother, who can harm Frisk despite having -12 attacks, which would scale upward to any Ruin monster.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Fair enough.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

But, why?

Frisk fell in flowers (May sounds dumb, but that is what saved the child from... you know...)

And about Frisk in Hotland, didn't you say that Frisk became stronger via Determination? Why isn't that the explanation to Frisk surviving in Hotland?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Pretty sure the actual reason for Wall level was just Hotland.

And yeah Frisk do, but I don't think we consider Frisk in the Overworld to have much DT. Case in point, a full power punch from Frisk in the overworld barely managed to knock over a tomato.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Pretty sure the actual reason for Wall level was just Hotland.
And yeah Frisk do, but I don't think we consider Frisk in the Overworld to have much DT. Case in point, a full power punch from Frisk in the overworld barely managed to knock over a tomato.

So... I'm only need DETERMINATION, because I sure I was able to crush a tomato when younger.