Solar System Level: Not all feats are created equal

[Assaltwaffle]

In interesting anomaly just appeared. While calcing a feat for Cell I realized that destroying the Sun from the distance of Earth with an omnidirectional blast is far above our current baseline. So, what is the current method, and why does this present a problem?

At the moment, our Solar System level (4-B) baseline assumes that a character can destroy Neptune from its distance to the Sun.

The Cell calculation assumes a character can destroy the Sun from the distance of 1 AU, the distance from the Sun to the Earth.

So, what's the problem with this? Well, most solar system busts are going to happen from Earth. Unless the character deliberately targets the Sun and destroys it before destroying anything else, an omnidirectional blast capable of taking out the entire solar system originating at Earth will have to take out the Sun from 1 AU, thus incorporating the above calc.

The fact of the matter is: the Sun is WAY more durable than any planet in the Solar System, and destroying it before everything else guts the result needed to actually wipe the solar system completely. So what are the options?

1. Keep the Baseline: Keeping the baseline with our current assumptions will cause any solar system bust done from Earth to land far above (~44x above) baseline.

2. Move the Baseline: Moving the baseline to account for most fictional solar system busts starting at Earth will make the rarer "starting from the Sun" solar system busts appear far weaker, and they will actually not make it into Solar System level, despite successfully destroying the Solar System. Take note that such a discrepancy already exists: vaporizing Earth is actually not planet level.

TLDR: Destroying the solar system from Earth > destroying the solar system from the Sun since the latter starts with destroying the most durable object in our system. Either move the baseline to account for this or keep it and have "from-Earth Solar System busters" be 44x above baseline.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I am neutral, but I prefer the idea of moving the baseline.

I dont think it would effect too much since 4-B is already a wide tier.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Pachi appears to have created another. Anyway, this sounds more like a Staff Discussion if anything; however, I don't think we should move the baseline for 4-B higher up. Planet busting feats in general are typically far above baseline Planet level and the same thing should apply to Solar System busting. No reason to consider baseline for destroying a solar system higher.

Though, I did agree with the calc and Cell upgrade. And I also made this to add to upgrades

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@DarkDragon

Thing is, the methodology is what matters. While destroying the GBE of the planet gives planet level, solar system level's baseline is made entirely by us. There isn't a specific "solar system durability formula" outside of the one we made based on our assumptions.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, but the base line is for 4-B is still "simple omni-directional attack that covers and obliterates the entire solar system" It looks like the calc made is much more creative than just that, and it explodes and has a kinetic energy yield. For example, we calc'd Island sized explosions as Planet level that doesn't mean we move the baseline for Island level that high.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

If the omnidirectional explosion happens on Earth, you have two choices.

• Find the inverse square law ratio using the distance from Earth to Neptune, and multiply the ratio by the GBE of Neptune. Get the energy required to do that.
• Find the inverse square law ratio using the distance from Earth to Sun, and multiply the ratio by the GBE of the Sun. Get the energy required to do that as well.

The yield required to bust the Solar System from Earth is whatever value of energy that is higher from the two choices listed.

Because if you can produce an explosion that can bust the Neptune from Earth, by default the same explosion can bust the Sun from the Earth as well (or vice versa).

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Yeah, but the base line is for 4-B is still "simple omni-directional attack that covers and obliterates the entire solar system" It looks like the calc made is much more creative than just that, and it explodes and has a kinetic energy yield. For example, we calc'd Island sized explosions as Planet level that doesn't mean we move the baseline for Island level that high.

False equivalence.

The issue for this is the "simple omni-directional attack that covers and obliterates the entire solar system"'s value depends exclusively on where you put the starting point. If the vast majority of solar system busts (or statements) occur on Earth, then wouldn't it be more logical to put the baseline to that point, rather than have a baseline that will almost never occur in fiction?

With GBE we aren't writing the rules; it's a formula. With 4-B and above, those values depend entirely on what we assume.

 

[AKM sama]

Imo, someone who can destroy a solar system, doesn't matter from where, should be solar system level. So I'll go with the first option.

This is very basic stuff, anyone who can destroy the solar system from Neptune would stomp the one who can do it only from the sun. But it doesn't change the fact that they both can do it. So they should be at that tier.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Because if you can produce an explosion that can bust the Neptune from Earth, by default the same explosion can bust the Sun from the Earth as well (or vice versa).

Not true.

If you can bust Neptune from Earth you cannot bust the Sun from Earth unless otherwise shown. Destroying Neptune from Earth does not yield enough power the destroy the Sun from Earth.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it is easier for us to keep the baseline for the moment.

Perhaps you could incorporate moving it into your upcoming tier border revision though? However, as mentioned earlier, that will likely have to wait until some long vacation period, so the staff can properly help out.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think it should be assumed to start at the very center of the solar system.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I think that it is easier for us to keep the baseline for the moment.

Perhaps you could incorporate moving it into your upcoming tier border revision though? However, as mentioned earlier, that will likely have to wait until some long vacation period, so the staff can properly help out.

I was thinking about that. I just wanted to discuss this now and then move everything later on.

That said we still need to decide whether or not we want destroying the solar system from Earth to be the baseline or whether or not we just let that be decently over baseline.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I think it should be assumed to start at the very center of the solar system.

But why when almost all fiction takes place on Earth and thus almost all solar system busts start at Earth?

 

[ShieldsPlus]

@Assaltwaffle Which is why the energy required to bust the Sun from Earth should be used, as that value is high enough to also bust Neptune from Earth as well.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Khristis

Oh yeah, I must have misunderstood.

I do agree with this. Destroying the Sun from Earth encompasses what is needed to destroy the solar system from Earth, while destroying Neptune from the Sun does NOT encompass destroying the solar system from Earth.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know that, but baselines are usually low-balled. And most feats in general that are properly calc'd are typically above baseline by significant margins. Having someone legitly destroying the entire solar system rather casually and only being treated as a less than baseline 4-B just sounds like nit-picking if you ask me.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@DarkDragon

I totally get where you're coming from. But right now our SS level baseline would indicate that if any character says "I'll destroy the Solar system!" and he is on Earth then he actually will fail to destroy the Sun if we assume the character is baseline.

Rather than running around slapping 44x over baseline on all characters who have a SS busting statement or feat from Earth, why not move the baseline up and let the outlier Sun-starting busters be left out?

Unless we want to move the Planet level baseline down to fragmentation of the Earth I don't think we should approach it this way.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Another difference is that Earth has GBE, and this it would naturally repair it safe if you fragmentize the Earth without overriding the GBE. Same with vaporizing only turning the Earth into a gas planet instead of a solid planet is technically not destroying a planet. However, destroying the entire Solar system, is a legit Solar System level feat and possibly above baseline. It isn't simply moving the pieces of the solar system apart and letting the solar system repair itself or anything like that.

But a simply destroying everything in the solar system beyond repair from anything but outside sources is still a legit 4-B feat regardless of the location, and if expands any higher, even higher than that.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@DarkDragon

Hmm. Maybe we should just treat destroying the Solar System from Earth as above baseline.

But that would require us to find every character who destroys/states he/she can destroy the solar system from Earth and slap 1 KiloFOE on him/her.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't really have a problem with ~1 kiloFoe being the new baseline for Solar System level, as it's a pretty clean starting point.

I would like to clarify though that I'm pretty sure most Solar System busting statements/feats:

A. don't even refer to our solar system.

B. aren't tied to any specific location.

9/10 times, if a character is in our solar system and says they're going to destroy it, they're either:

A. on or incredibly close to Earth.

B. actually visibly blow up the entirety of the solar system, which is 4-B by default.

Virtually nothing changes by moving this baseline. However, I have no actual preference, either way.

 

[ThePerpetual]

I would prefer to keep the baseline where it is now, myself. It is the minimum necessary to "destroy" the Solar System in the sense that we tend to think of destruction, and the point of baselines is to be just that- the baseline... we have Large Planet level Moon and Planet busting, Large Star level ordinary star busting, etc. because a lot of the time the baseline doesn't cut it. We reserve them for times where we can ascertain some minimum ballpark they have to be in to fit within the Tier- upgrading the base line for this tier, based upon a specific set of assumed circumstances, would imo kind of ignore the whole point of why it was put there in the first place...

 

[AKM sama]

So if the baseline will be moved up, what about the poor characters who can destroy the solar system from the sun? Would they be stripped off their well-deserved tier?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Yes.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

So if the baseline will be moved up, what about the poor characters who can destroy the solar system from the sun? Would they be stripped off their well-deserved tier?

I'm not sure if we have anyone who targets the Sun first and ends up destroying the solar system.

If we do have someone like that, yes. This would drop them below baseline.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

@Assaltwaffle Ninja'd you.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Baseline 4-B should be kept the same, if a solar system buster statement is made with no specific feat or location from where it comes from, we assume baseline as a lowball. Any legit feats that a properly calc'd or due specify a starting point can be calc'd and then upgraded to above baseline if necessary.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

IMO each feat should be calced individually.

 

[Antvasima]

I would prefer to keep the baseline where it is now, myself. It is the minimum necessary to "destroy" the Solar System in the sense that we tend to think of destruction, and the point of baselines is to be just that- the baseline... we have Large Planet level Moon and Planet busting, Large Star level ordinary star busting, etc. because a lot of the time the baseline doesn't cut it. We reserve them for times where we can ascertain some minimum ballpark they have to be in to fit within the Tier- upgrading the base line for this tier, based upon a specific set of assumed circumstances, would imo kind of ignore the whole point of why it was put there in the first place...

I think that ThePerpetual makes sense. We should preferably use a minimum as a baseline.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I'm OK with keeping baseline. But anyone who can destroy the solar system from Earth needs this value slapped on.

 

[RinkakuKagune]

Yeah I would agree with keeping the baseline.

I myself calced destroying out solar system from different positions and ended up with varying results. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:RinkakuKagune/Silver_Surfer_Solar_System_Feat

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should we close this thread and remove the highlight then?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Well it still needs to be discussed on who needs this new value. Highlight removed? Probably. Closed? Not yet imo.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Stefano4444]

I think that the baseline should be left as its now i mean how many times there were Moon busting feats that were been calculated to be above the baseline of Moon level.

The feats of Early DBZ Piccolo and Satan from Devilman are prime examples of that.

 

[RinkakuKagune]

The difference is that the the baseline of the Moon isn't due to a calc, but rather from it's GBE, but yeah I still agree that the baseline should be kept the same.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

My opinion is the same as Azathoth's and Perpetual's.

 

[Kepekley23]

I agree with ThePerpetual here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I also 100% disagree with the Cell calculation. He is using a feat from a Nintendo 3DS game and trying to apply it to the original manga.

 

[Kepekley23]

Actually, that video is only there for the lulz.

He is calc'ing what it'd take to destroy the Solar System from Earth which is what Cell was going to do.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Kamehamehas aren't omnidirectional blasts. The line is also vague as **** and reads as sort of boosting. I find it 10 times more likely that Cell was going to fire a kamehameha into the sun and blow it up.