Smol issue in pokémon profiles

[PaChi2]

And using Mewtwo as your example is not very helpful when the guy is literally a manmade warmachine modified to be the strongest pokemon. Of course it will have capabilities above regular pokemon, because it was made to be that way.

 

[Xulrev]

I fully support removal of this reasoning from all profiles after reading the thread to this point. I still have my own bias believing the Legendaries are in fact faster but without explicit proof its inaccurate for the wiki to simply assert as such.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Speed is never mentioned in legends afaik. Trainers and Organizations want to catch Legendaries for their special powers and/or tremendous power and/or rarity (money). Speed is never mentioned.
In a world of tier 7s a tier 6 is a god. But the tier 6 doesnt have to be above every stat.

And why would it need to be mentioned? Why exactly would you want speed or any specific stat to be mentioned in legends? That, again, becomes very nitpicky and is asking to be spoon fed info.

Legendaries are very valuable to people in the verse because of their capabilities in general.

Btw, you still didnt address 2 instances I pointed out that are flat out blitzing.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Honestly no, lifting up your hand while a beam travel several meters to hit you does not require a massive difference in speed at all. You shouldn't struggle to do something like thus with only a normal speed advantage

Mewtwo doing that to Magneton and Gyrados is not the only thing im talking about in regards to this. I mean legendaries reacting to inferior speeds in general.

Going out of the way to specifically ask for blitzing (which we also have and I pointed out 2 instances of this) and only blitzing becomes a nitpicking witch hunt that is, no offense, desperate.

 

[Xulrev]

@Kukui

The profiles' assertion of fodderizing regular pokemon is an inaccurate claim without blitzing feats, by definition of the claim. It's not desperate for PaChi to point this out

 

[Andytrenom]

Honestly you saying "we don't have to be spoon fed" sounds like nothing other than excusing yourself from actually defending your interpretation. Info needs to have a concrete source to be mentioning, just saying "it's obvious" means nothing.

 

[PaChi2]

Shaymi

Moltres

Articuno

Lugia

Look at their speed justifications. Speed.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kukui
The profiles' assertion of fodderizing regular pokemon is an inaccurate claim without blitzing feats, by definition of the claim. It's not desperate for PaChi to point this out

It kinda is when only questioning the speed aspect of the claim. I dont mean any offense by that, but it needs to be pointed out.

We dont put legendaries fodderizing regular pokemon because of specific stats, we put the former fodderzing the latter in everything. Because as mentioned before, regular pokemon are nothing compared to ones that are in an entirely different league than them. And thats without PIS having a say.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Honestly you saying "we don't have to be spoon fed" sounds like nothing other than excusing yourself from actually defending your interpretation. Info needs to have a concrete source to be mentioning, just saying "it's obvious" means nothing.

Of course and there are also such times where common sense needs to come in and take place as well.

Information does not need a source for literally everything.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Well, just want to give my two cents:

Even if there isn't an explicit case of a Legendary blitzing a non-legendary (which I am sure there must be somewhere, just gotta keep looking), I think we can make a clearer connection with PIS if we have a clear speed feat for the legendary that puts them way above what a normal pokemon can do. Maybe travelling huge distances, reaching with his attacks faraway distances in an instant, something similar.

I think both PaChi and Kukui make sense here: Legendaries should by all intents and porpuses be superior to regular pokemon in every way, given lore and narrative hypes them like that, but there is a middle step missing that makes that connection, which is what PaChi means. I also think attributing characters capabilities because "they should be that strong" without a backup isn't enough in general, but I am sure there is evidence in the Pokemon franchise.

I'd be careful with using Ash or Pikachu for scaling. Those two are perhaps the biggest victims of "as strong/weak as the plot needs" in anime. If the episode needs to promote a new gen baby pokemon, Pikachu will lose to it... and if later in the same episode Ultra Instinct Taikyoku Arceus goes in a rampage, Pikachu will be able to hold him off unexplicably.

 

[PaChi2]

Of course and there are also such times where common sense needs to come in and take place as well.

Information does not need a source for literally everything.

In fact, it needs. With no source to back up your claims you are basically spreading lies. This is more a real life thing than vsdebating thing, tho.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Shaymi
Moltres

Articuno

Lugia

Look at their speed justifications. Speed.

Shaymin is the only one out of the 4 you linked that has that. And even then, at the worst, this only means Shaymin needs a better detailed justification.

Besides, Shaymin has been shown to easily dodge attacks from non-legendaries before, like a whole herde of Magnimites, Magnitons and a Magnezone. Why is it suddenly hard to believe it's faster than non-legendaries?

 

[Andytrenom]

Of course and there are also such times where common sense needs to come in and take place as well.

Information does not need a source for literally everything.

No, it does. It just doesn't need explicit sources all the time.

But you still have to justify things that are implied by presenting a logical reasoning for accepting a certain interpretation and not just wave it with " it's obvious dude"

 

[PaChi2]

Did you read the profiles?

Moltres: (Faster than non-Legendary Pokémon like Charizard to the point of fodderizing.***)

^^^

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

In fact, it needs. With no source to back up your claims you are basically spreading lies. This is more a real life thing than vsdebating thing, tho.

So are we seriously saying here that common sense is non-existent and we need a source for literally every single bit of information on literally every level?

 

[PaChi2]

I see you skipped "This is more a real life thing than vsdebating thing, tho".

 

[Darkmon_cns]

@4life


I believe there trying to say that common sense does have a place, but it must have a root for making sense, and that you can't just say it makes sense because it dose.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Did you read the profiles?
Moltres: (Faster than non-Legendary Pokémon like Charizard to the point of fodderizing.***)

^^^

Let me fix this for you:

Moltres: Can easily dodge attacks from Zapdos and Articuno. Its Flamethrower moves at the same speed as Zapdos's lighting. Comparable to Shaymi


This is definitely not just saying "faster than x" and leaving it at that..

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@4life
I believe there trying to say that common sense does have a place, but it must have a root for making sense, and that you can't just say it makes sense because it dose.

And I absolutely agree with that. But for some reason, some here are assuming there is no root in the first place when....there is.

That is what im having trouble agreeing with.

 

[PaChi2]

The only thing this thread is about is the wording.

Comparing Legendaries to Legendaries is fine. Claiming that they fodderize regular third stages without a source, is not.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If your looking for the justifications to be changed or more detailed, sure i'll agree with that.

But saying a legendary needs evidence of foddering third stages or any kind of regular pokemon is absurd.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

But saying a legendary needs evidence of foddering third stages or any kind of regular pokemon is absurd.

I'll be honest I disagreed with this outlook...but this isn't the place for that, evidence is at least easy to come by so I don't get why it's needed to exist either

 

[PaChi2]

This is about being conservative, man.

"As a legendary pokémon, it should be comparable or superior to third stages such as Charizard. Equal to Zapdos and Articuno"

If there is no more concrete proof of the speed fodderizing, this wording is much more accurate to the evidence we currently have.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hmm. Well going by that Pachi, the way I see it is all we need then is just multiple examples of legendaries foddering non-legendaries in speed to justify that as the standard between the pokemon.

Which if looking at it like this i'll be fine with.

 

[PaChi2]

Hmm. Well going by that Pachi, the way I see it is all we need then is just multiple examples of legendaries foddering non-legendaries in speed to justify that as the standard between the pokemon.

Which if looking at it like this i'll be fine with.

And that is exactly what I ask in the OP.

 

[Xulrev]

This is a case of Possibly faster than [X] coming into play if we don't have explicit feats. Legendaries being faster is something that intuitively makes sense, but intuition itself is not a strong argument except in very certain philosophies.

This wiki needs feats to base claims from, Kukui. Attempting to shift burden of proof doesn't alter that base goal of accuracy, and accuracy comes from well-analyzed feats primarily.

If there is proof, the profiles can be changed to account for that. If not, then a Possibly faster rating would be more accurate.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We have 2 examples so far with Mewtwo and Genesect.

Btw, just remembered Mega Rayquaza blitzing Mega Charizard X with Dragon Ascent in a second. Thats another example.

 

[PaChi2]

We have 2 examples so far with Mewtwo and Genesect.

Btw, just remembered Mega Rayquaza blitzing Mega Charizard X with Dragon Ascent in a second. Thats another example.

Mewtwo aint a good example when the justification for his speed is:

At least Relativistic, likely higher (Blitzed Articuno. Far superior to Lugia in speed and kept up with Deoxys in its various Formes).

The dood is already superior to other legendaries.

Also, didnt that same Rayquaza blitz Deoxys?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

True, but Mewtwo is still a legendary at the end of the day. So the feat specifically of Mewtwo easily blitzing regular mon, even when injured and fatigued, should help represent the legendary rank in general.

 

[PaChi2]

@Professor my main issue is more with "lower tier" legendaries than with the top brass. Im talking about legends like the bird trio, manaphy, celebi, etc.

Its their feats that we should look for to claim that all legendaries are capable of that. Using Mega Rayquaza as your meassuring stick is kinda fallacious.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

If we'd go by strictly games, just looking at their stats it's obvious that they're superior to regular mons.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

If we'd go by strictly games, just looking at their stats it's obvious that they're superior to regular mons.

Wouldn't that be using game mechanics then? The same thing that let's non a legendary one shot legendary like mew 2?)

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Huh?

 

[Xulrev]

This isn't really true, though, Peter.

Crobat is faster than almost every single Legendary for instance, by a huge margin, for just one example.

Accelgor, Ninjask, Aerodactyl, Jolteon, Greninja.

Only Deoxys is consistently above any of the aforementioned pokemon in the Speed category. Mewtwo ends up equal with Crobat for the record.

Not a single Legendary barring Deoxys is faster than the other 5 listed, however, and I can name a dozen or more mon whose Speed stat at base and at cap are superior.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

I'm taking about overall stats.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah stats are not a good way to help justify this.

I have to go out in a bit so i'll look for some other stuff to help here.

 

[Xulrev]

Ah alright I thought we were just staying strictly on Speed, apologies.

But yeah, canon stats indicate Legendaries, by and large, aren't even remotely faster than an enormous amount of ordinary Pokemon.

 

[Robot972]

I'm taking about overall stats.

When it comes to Pokémon, stats are better suited for determining which attribute that specific pokemon is best suited for, rather than trying to compare them to other pokemon. Pokémon like Crobat or Jolteon are very fast rather than being powerhouses or tanks, Slaking is physically strong rather than fast, etc.

Aerodactyl had no trouble keeping up with it. Did you see the scan? Aerodactyl had several wings in that drawing. Its portrayed as fast and nothing else.

Also you missed the point by a huge margin. Im asking why Legendaries have to fodderize in speed the other pokemon when they arent portrayed like that.

One, that's literally what I said. You used it as a means of playing off the feat entirely as simply being an "artistic technique". I was simply making sure you were aware that it was relevant to speed.

And the same for what else I said. I was explaining how you trying to use Ash and PMD to discredit the speed gap is an iffy argument to make when both are incredibly situational and very dependent on plot.

Everything I said was on topic, so shut your yapper.

 

[Everything12]

Weren't Alakazams group completely stomped by Groudon off screen in Mystery Dungeon?

 

[Robot972]

Weren't Alakazams group completely stomped by Groudon off screen in Mystery Dungeon?

Plus that.

But again, because of how PMD is played, that has more to do with power than strength, since speed isn't a huge part of combat.