Smol issue in pokémon profiles

[GyroNutz]

However:
2) That latios guy in the Sinnoh tournament.

4) The Battle Frontier doods with Articuno and the Regis trio.

5) In PMD Alakazam and co go to fight Groudon.

7) not sure if Eusine and Suicune fought.

Tobias is a big fat PIS. Even if his Latios did blitz Ash's Pokemon, it wouldn't be a feat because it'd make Latios faster than Darkrai.

If you're talking about the games, then it's post-game so would it really count? In the anime, the regis are notoriously slow at moving, yet vs Paul, Brandon's Regice charged up and fired a Zap Cannon before Ursaring could even finish charging its focus blast. Ursaring started charging first, and its focus blasts have shown quick attack speed against p much everyone else.

Yeah and they get blitzed.

They didn't in the games, not sure about other media, and every time they met Suicune fled 'at simply awesome speeds' and 'like a blur'.

 

[PaChi2]

@Gyro I dont see how that scene in PMD portrays any kind of blitz.

The only thing they say is that were crushed by Groudon and Alakazam is still fighting Groudo. It's more likely that Groudon oneshot both tyranitar and charizard because he is clearly way above their paygrade than that Groudon blitzed the hell out of them. Especially when Alakazam survived the initial assault.

About Suicune, yeh, Im talking about the other media.

@Robot

Im not discrediting any speed gap. Im asking for proof of the existence of said speed gap. The examples I gave were a demonstration that the legendaries' portrayal is mostly "they are stronger", meaning that a strength gap is portrayed. I want to see where the speed gap comes from and nothing else.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I mean...I agree with the OP, but I do also feel like it would be common sense. However, the issue is that we've planted this common sense in our minds based upon how we rated these mons. I think it's one of those "common sense" things that lack real evidence.

 

[GyroNutz]

Well we know Alakazam >>> Tyranitar and Charizard in terms of power and speed, and Alakazam got wiped out in a flash of light without a chance to retaliate. Although this Alakazam can beat the legendary birds, meaning if this was a feat, it'd be one that puts Groudon >>> common 6-B legends.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

I'm struggling to believe a Legendary Pokemon like Groudon should in any way at all be considered faster than Alakazam, tbh. In the games. at max level, Alakazam has a way higher speed stat than a Groudon or Kyogre of the same level, AND Alakazam also outspeeds the three Legendary Birds, the Legendary Dogs, literally all of the legendary dragons outside of Mega-Ray, regular-ass Alakazam outspeeds at the same level (and even then, the difference between Alakazam and Mega Ray is only a few points at max speed IV/EVs). Mega Alakazam is even faster than Mega Ray, and is only beat out by Deoxys.

 

[GyroNutz]

Game mechanics

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Okay, sure. Game mechanics. Then why is it a major plot point of every game post-third generation to defeat/catch the eponymous legendary/ies of the game? If a trainer's Pokemon are canonically supposed to get shit-stomped by these guys, I mean.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay, sure. Game mechanics. Then why is it a major plot point of every game post-third generation to defeat/catch the eponymous legendary/ies of the game? If a trainer's Pokemon are canonically supposed to get shit-stomped by these guys, I mean.

Because the player catching the legendary of each game is, even if canonical, massive PIS or Outlier plaooza?

Unless you want to argue for a 2-B Pokemon Trainer for catching the Creation Trio.

 

[Imaginym]

Generation 4 might be an outlier, but Creation Trio aside, isn't there dialogue in Gen 4 that implies Legendary Pokemon can't be at full power in balls?

And in some cases, isn't it voluntary capture, like with Solgaleo/Lunala, or B/W where the reason to acquire the Legendary is to take on its counterpart wielded by Ghetsis?

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Generation 4 might be an outlier, but Creation Trio aside, isn't there dialogue in Gen 4 that implies Legendary Pokemon can't be at full power in balls?
And in some cases, isn't it voluntary capture, like with Solgaleo/Lunala, or B/W where the reason to acquire the Legendary is to take on its counterpart wielded by Ghetsis?

That's my point, though. The first go around, you're not fighting Lugia or Kyogre out of a Pokeball. There should absolutely be standard Pokemon capable of blitzing many of the legendaries that aren't outright god-tier (e.g. Arceus), Alakazam primary among them.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm struggling to believe a Legendary Pokemon like Groudon should in any way at all be considered faster than Alakazam, tbh. In the games. at max level, Alakazam has a way higher speed stat than a Groudon or Kyogre of the same level, AND Alakazam also outspeeds the three Legendary Birds, the Legendary Dogs, literally all of the legendary dragons outside of Mega-Ray, regular-ass Alakazam outspeeds at the same level (and even then, the difference between Alakazam and Mega Ray is only a few points at max speed IV/EVs). Mega Alakazam is even faster than Mega Ray, and is only beat out by Deoxys.

Groudon has one of the best speed feats in the verse though, having a MHS+ feat on his own. Before the rel stuff came in, that was the go-to speed feat for the cream of the crop Legendaries to scale to.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Since Pachi was moreso asking on behalf of the low tier 6-B legendaries for speed feats, I made it my task to go through some online respect threads to find feats of them outspeeding regular pokemon or making regular pokemon look slow in comparison to help justify the standard. So im just gonna go through a bunch for the multiple legendaries I found things for:

Moltres:

-A Salamance flying at full speed wasnt fast enough to catch Moltres when it was falling in a Volcano

-Reacts to and blasts Ash's Talonflame out of the sky so fast Talonflame couldnt react at all.

-Easily dodges multiple water guns.

-Sidesteps a hyper beam from Salamence very casually

-Easily follows the movements of Ash's Fletchinder and blitzes it with a flamethrower before it can do anything.

Articuno:

-Blitzes Ash's Charizard (though this was inside mist)

-Blitzes Ash's Charizard, again, with Steel Wing

-Blitzes Ash's Charizard. Again.

-Casually weaves around and flies past Ash's Charizard's flamethrower.

-Even while falling in the air and recovering from a hit, it casually dodges an attack from Charizard flying right at it.

Zapdos:

-Staggers Pikachu with a weak jolt of electricity before Pikachu could react and move out of harms way.

-Tag's Ash's Talonflame and sends it plummeting from the sky.

-One shots Ash's Hawlucha extremely quickly before it can do a thing from a distance.

-Easily dodges Ash's Noiverns Boomburst.

-Flat out dodges and outspeeds Ash's Talonflame, even after it uses Flame Charge to increase its speed.

Lugia scales from the birds so...pretty sure its safe.

Raikou:

-Tags a Zoroark, transformed as a Raikou itself.

-Avoids an assault from Zoroark leaping out of water as a surprise attack (also counts for Entei and Suicune).

-Has no problem keeping up with Zoroark in a chase, even when its transformed into an Entei (also counts for Suicune).

Entei:

-Matches the speed of Zoroark using Flare Blitz as an Entei itself.

-Reacts to and overpowers Ash's Charizard with a single headbutt in a second. Casually.

-Dodges a flying charge from Ash's Charizard.

-Dodges multiple flameflowers from Charizard and also charges past and blitzes it.

-Dodges a water gun from Ash's Tododile.

-Blitzes Ash's Charizard even more.

Oh and in this AMV of taking on Ash, Verity and Sorrell in the "I Choose You!" movie, Entei casually dodges attacks from both Pikachu and Piplup and one shots Lucario before it can do a thing after failing to scratch Entei.

Suicune:

-Easily dodges Arbok's Poison Sting

Ho-Oh....same thing as Lugia.

Landorus:

-Tags Iris's Dragonite

-Tag's Dragonite (again), Golurk and Cynthia's Garchomp all before they could react and do a thing (also counts for Tornadus and Thunderus).

-Easily reacts to and tail slaps Dragonite away, stopping its charge.

-Easily keeps up with Dragonite, Garchomp and Golurk and dodges Dragonites Ice Beam at the last second (also counts for Tornadus and Thunderus).

Tornadus:

-Sends Ash's Snivy flying before it could react and do anything.

-Dodges a thunderbolt from Pikachu, as well as a combined electric attack from Pikachu and Cilan's Stunfisk.

-Tags Iris's Dragonite

-Tags Golurk in midair, the latter who tried dodging but fails.

-Dodges a Dragon Rush from Cynthia's Garchomp.

Thunderus:

-Easily dodges a psyshock from Gothorita

-Tags Iris's Dragonite (literally all 3 of them do this?)

-Tags Cynthia's Garchomp

-Blitzes Golurk

-Dodges an Air Cutter from Ash's Unfezant

-Intercepts Iris's Dragonites Flamethrower.

This should all be enough, hopefully.

 

[Dragopentling]

Also, the anime of the franchise doesn't regularly do well enough at times to depict how much faster the said Legendary Pokémon are.

Again, Kukui's explanations and examples here make more sense.

Though I kinda get why the issue with this. The anime is so clock full of plot devices that it's practically a PIS farm.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Oh and btw, just gonna give this an honorable mention because I cant find videos of this online.

Shaymin dodges literally all electric attacks from a group of Magnemite, Magneton and Magnezones in the Giratina movie, except for 1 surprise attack from the latter (which is an obvious outlier).

 

[PaChi2]

About Moltres:

1) this aint a speed feat. Moltres falling isnt a speed feat for moltres.

About Articuno:

That very same charizard that "got blitzed" is the same charizard that defeated the bird.

About Entei:

No. Dont use Entei vs Charizard in the movie because Entei didnt overwhelm Charizard with speed. Charizard has no trouble keeping up with Entei's attacks and got defeated with a surprise attack because Entei was playing in home. Both dodge each other's attacks until Entei lands the first hit, followed by a chase in which Charizard is severely crippled by the Unown/Crystal thing until Entei catches up and beats him.

full battle

And seeing you using that fight as evidence makes me think that some of the rest of your evidence may be just taken out of context in order to prove your point, btw. If this comes as rude or anything is just because the third movie is one of the two Pokemon movies I own (in VHS, mind you, the other one is Mewtwo the return), and is the movie I have seen most times out of the pokemon franchise. And I wont agree with Entei blitzing Charizard in any way.

I have no time to watch the rest for now, sorry. But Legendaries matching regular pokemon isnt what Im looking for by any means. That's just a reason for "they scale".

 

[TriforcePower1]

I mean. It is indeed common sense that they SHOULD be faster (especially for guys like Deoxys speed or Mewtwo), and I have a hard time believing there isn't even a single instance of legendaries blitzing normal ones. Though, I must admit that if they don't have feats of doing that, I guess we do need to change the wording.

I mean, this isn't really going to downgrade their speed as they're still going to be faster, just not blitz-worthy faster.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

> this aint a speed feat. Moltres falling isnt a speed feat for moltres.

But it is a feat against Salamance since it could not catch Moltres and stop it from falling in lava, even with its full speed. Re-posting part of my last reply:

"I made it my task to go through some online respect threads to find feats of them outspeeding regular pokemon or making regular pokemon look slow in comparison to help justify the standard."

This is the latter. Salamances speed is slow in comparison to Moltres falling, or else he would have been able to catch it.

>That very same charizard that "got blitzed" is the same charizard that defeated the bird.

After an extremely diffucult fight where it barely got out a victory in the end. And guess what? This would still be an outlier or PIS feat on Charizards part. We dont accept regular mon winning against legendaries as anything legitimate and Charizards no exception. We dont accept Reds Mega Zard X being 5-B and Rel+ for overwhelming Mewtwo, so trying to use Ash's Charizard beating an Articuno is a double standard.

Besides, so what if Articuno lost? That doesnt change the fact that he outsped, dodged Charizards attacks, and blitzed him. Multiple times. Blitzing doesnt become invalidated just because of a win or loss.

>No. Dont use Entei vs Charizard in the movie because Entei didnt overwhelm Charizard with speed.

Besides what I already showed.

>Charizard has no trouble keeping up with Entei's attacks and got defeated with a surprise attack because Entei was playing in home.

What surprise attack? And no, Charizard's only speed feats in this entire fight are dodging long-ranged fire blasts from Entei, which doesnt matter much since Entei does the same exact thing when dodging Charizard's flamethrowers. Not only that, Charizard does this when already flying in the air with an obvious mobility advantage due to being a flying type. Entei very much overwhelmed Charizard with its speed, unless you already forgotten Entei casually reacted to Charizard charging at it and sent it flying away with a headbutt in less than a second. The very first thing they do in this fight and Entei made quick short work of Charizard.

What I originally typed got deleted and I dont have time to try and retype everything I said originally, so i'll only detail this fight out if I have to.

>Both dodge each other's attacks

Besides Entei's physical strikes, which Charizard blatantly gets blitzed by.

>until Entei lands the first hit, followed by a chase in which Charizard is severely crippled by the Unown/Crystal thing until Entei catches up and beats him.

Which is Entei's doing. Entei is able to manipulate those crystals to an extent as attacks and control them, so this is not a surprise attack or anything. Its Entei tagging Charizard. And even then, Entei's last attack on Charizard blitzed it as well. Plus, im almost 100% certain that Entei didnt even use that much effort to take down Charizard. The only opponents in this entire movie that actually make Entei legitimately struggle are the Unown (and for obvious reasons).

Speaking of which, isnt this Entei supposed to have inferior capabilities compared to real Enteis? This Entei is just a creation of Mollys wishes that the Unown made real. If this Entei is << real Entei, this helps my point even more.

>And seeing you using that fight as evidence makes me think that some of the rest of your evidence may be just taken out of context in order to prove your point, btw.

First of all, I already pointed out where I got my evidence from. From quick google searches of online respect threads for some of these 6-B low end legendaries. So even if some of the stuff I provided doesnt check out in the end, it definitely isnt intentional as your reply seems to try and point out. So please, don't accuse me of anything.

Second, I fail to see what's being taken out of context here as majority of this at the very least is showing that regular mons speeds are inferior/a joke in comparison to these legendaries. Even if some of the stuff I provided doesnt check out, that certainly isnt the case with everything I provided.

>If this comes as rude or anything is just because the third movie is one of the two Pokemon movies I own (in VHS, mind you, the other one is Mewtwo the return), and is the movie I have seen most times out of the pokemon franchise. And I wont agree with Entei blitzing Charizard in any way.

And im sorry if this comes off as rude too, but it doesnt really matter what you will or will never personally agree with when in face of provided facts and evidence.

I have this and majority of every Pokemon movie downloaded to my PC as well and know them by heart, so I understand where your coming from on this note. But I disagree with you on this.

>But Legendaries matching regular pokemon isnt what Im looking for by any means. That's just a reason for "they scale".

No, it isnt. Legendaries scale from non-legendaries already just for being legendaries in themselves, who are known to be above the latters paygrade. Applying actual scaling feats to this would make this more than just "they scale", it would make them upscale from regular mon.

 

[PaChi2]

Your definition of "blitzed" is really tame if what Entei did to Charizard is considered a blitz. Landing a hit isnt blitzing.

 

[PaChi2]

"Speaking of which, isnt this Entei supposed to have inferior capabilities compared to real Enteis? This Entei is just a creation of Mollys wishes that the Unown made real. If this Entei is << real Entei, this helps my point even more."

I dont know about that. Unown are capable of creating mons that far surpass the capabilities of their regular counterparts. My boi Teddiursa knows it very well.

"What surprise attack? And no, Charizard's only speed feats in this entire fight are dodging long-ranged fire blasts from Entei, which doesnt matter much since Entei does the same exact thing when dodging Charizard's flamethrowers. Not only that, Charizard does this when already flying in the air with an obvious mobility advantage due to being a flying type. Entei very much overwhelmed Charizard with its speed, unless you already forgotten Entei casually reacted to Charizard charging at it and sent it flying away with a headbutt in less than a second. The very first thing they do in this fight and Entei made quick short work of Charizard"

Entei pulling a Crystal out of thin air to use as a platform to jump and hit Charizard in close quarters is a surprise attack as Charizard couldnt expect that attack. Something close to a feint in real life.

If dodging long ranged attacks isnt a remarkable feat half of what you post isnt remarkable, either. And your abuse of the term "casual" to further prove your points gets a bit tiring. Entei reacted to charizard charging, and as he is superior in physical stats he can knock him back without much effort, we know that. Doesnt prove that Entei is so fast that Charizard cant fight back.

And about moltres, it's an antifeat for Salamence, so I dont understand the point. Its not a moltres feat.


"After an extremely diffucult fight where it barely got out a victory in the end. And guess what? This would still be an outlier or PIS feat on Charizards part. We dont accept regular mon winning against legendaries as anything legitimate and Charizards no exception. We dont accept Reds Mega Zard X being 5-B and Rel+ for overwhelming Mewtwo, so trying to use Ash's Charizard beating an Articuno is a double standard.

Besides, so what if Articuno lost? That doesnt change the fact that he outsped, dodged Charizards attacks, and blitzed him. Multiple times. Blitzing doesnt become invalidated just because of a win or loss."

I was simply pointing that out because it makes the whole fight PIS, man. If we cant accept Charizard winning we shouldnt accept Articuno blitzing or anything in that fight. That's just nitpicking what you want.

 

[PaChi2]

I got an idea.

Why dont we create a blog with the evidence and discuss it there? Huh?

And again, this is not about legends being faster than three stages, is about fodderizing three stages.