Small Saint Seiya Upgrade

[Hasty12345]

If he has the 8th sense which supposedly makes souls 5-D (infinitely big) then there should be no place in the story for something like that scene.

Go argue with Pokemon supporters about Arceus then

you're creating holes where they don't exist

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Go argue with Pokemon supporters about Arceus then

you're creating holes where they don't exist

Saint Seiya isn't Pokemon, and from what I saw, this is actually explictly because they consider here that Arceus uses avatars.

Arceus

Arceus is a Mythical Pokémon who is the leader and creator of the "Creation Trio" formed by Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina, as well as the "Lake Trio" formed by Mesprit, Uxie, and Azelf, making it a Trio Master, and the only one who is that of two different trios. By bringing the trios into...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Even on his page, you can see how the HDE is only on his True Form section, his avatar(s) don't have it.

No, how they're handled in the story is a very clear hole in the notion their souls are infinitely big. Why do they have to move and fly through finite portions of 3-D space (like when their souls, which were contained in their Temples btw, fly from Earth to the Wailing Wall) if they're supposedly infinitely sized on said dimensional scale?

 

[Hasty12345]

you don't even believe what you're saying at this point.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

you don't even believe what you're saying at this point.

Truly ironic from someone insisting a 2-C to 1-C upgrade off the logic in this thread. And not believe what? Your comparison to Arceus was a false equivalence (and if we were to extend this avatar logic to the Gold Saints to make all the contradictions make sense, that in itself invalidate the logic of this thread, though I don't see anything in the story that indicates they use avatars), and all of what I said happened in the story and these points all completely contradict the idea of 5-D sze.

Now, maybe we can discuss the scene with Asmita and Illias and what needs to be reevaluated about it to make an interpretation that makes a little more sense with the story.

 

[Hasty12345]

then make a CRT, because as far as I'm concerned 8th sense users going to the UW when they die is as factual as the series being called Saint Seiya and you can argue with the manga all you want about that fact (a fact you conveniently used last thread).

this CRT doesn't need to be side tracked by yet another derailment of tangential points by a certain group of people who insist on fabricating holes where none exist.

If you want to re-evaluate what's currently accepted, go make a CRT because this CRT doesn't need to be derailed any further.

(A) 8th sense souls post death = 5D

therefore

(B) 8th sense souls can exist within the UW after death, therefore UW = 5D.

go revert (A) and stop derailing this thread.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

No, it isn't, 8th sense users can freely move between the worlds and be where the want. Aiolos was literally on Earth since his death until he went to the Wailing Wall in the end.

"Fabricating holes where they don't exist" maybe try actually refuting these innumerable contradictions instead of baselessly insisting they're fabricated when this is the standard for 5-D objects.

And sure, I plan on it, that's why I made a post on Questions and Answers earlier to get some insight beforehand, though from what I read on the Tiering System Faq and rereading the chapters, the plane Illias reached doesn't even seem to adequately qualify for a 5-D plane, so I'll be sure to bring that up.

(B) 8th sense souls can exist within the UW after death, therefore UW = 5D.

And I already explained why this logic doesn't work as you think because 8th sense souls can also exist in finite 3-D areas of the regular world and even within Sanctuary. Even the scene where they fly to the UW in the first place in itself showcases a contradiction to this idea.

 

[Death_of_Lems]

And I already explained why this logic doesn't work as you think because 8th sense souls can also exist in finite 3-D areas of the regular world and even within Sanctuary. Even the scene where they fly to the UW in the first place in itself showcases a contradiction to this idea.

Ilias openly explains that the souls existing in the Normal World are only avatars...

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Ilias openly explains that the souls existing in the Normal World are only avatars...

Where? I read the full translation of the chapter by Thirdeye and I never saw him say anything like this.

 

[Death_of_Lems]

Where? I read the full translation of the chapter by Thirdeye and I never saw him say anything like this.

The Soul of Ilias can only be seen in a mental world of his own, while in the real world what remains are representations of his cosmos/soul, just like the wind that protects Sisyphus from Asmita.

And even the body that appears to both gold, is simply a shell created by Ilias.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

The Soul of Ilias can only be seen in a mental world of his own, while in the real world what remains are representations of his cosmos/soul, just like the wind that protects Sisyphus from Asmita.

And even the body that appears to both gold, is simply a shell created by Ilias.

Sounds like headcanon, none of this is ever said in the chapter. They contacted Illias soul by raising their consciousness to the mental plane he was in (the Land of the Wind). His soul that appears to Asmita and Sisyphos was never indicated to be ar avatar, even what Asmita says to him in their fight to him confirms it was his soul.

Also, if we know the Land of the Wind is moreso a mental plane (Asmita and Sisyphos even reaching it without the 8th sense and simply raising their consciousness), how does it qualify as a higher spatial dimension?

 

[Death_of_Lems]

Sounds like headcanon, none of this is ever said in the chapter. They contacted Illias soul by raising their consciousness to the mental plane he was in (the Land of the Wind). His soul that appears to Asmita and Sisyphos was never indicated to be ar avatar, even what Asmita says to him in their fight to him confirms it was his soul.

Also, if we know the Land of the Wind is moreso a mental plane (Asmita and Sisyphos even reaching it without the 8th sense and simply raising their consciousness), how does it qualify as a higher spatial dimension?

Asmita intended to leave Ilias' soul really exposed, demonstrating that what they both saw was only a shell. And this does not go against that Ilias just acts in the human world using the wind as his avatar.

Nobody said that the Land of Wind is a high dimension, it is even described as just a mental world that Ilias created for the two of them there.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Asmita intended to leave Ilias' soul really exposed, demonstrating that what they both saw was only a shell. And this does not go against that Ilias just acts in the human world using the wind as his avatar.

With all due respect I think you're making this part up. Nowhere do they ever state anything but Asmita's soul being a shell. The threat from Asmita if the Tenbu Horin landed was because he wanted to test him and see the essence of the 8th sense, and Illias responded with a Lightning Plasma. And Asmita wasn't using the wind as an avatar, it's just that they felt his presence in it (you know, another contradiction to the notion that it's some higher spatial dimension).

Nobody said that the Land of Wind is a high dimension, it is even described as just a mental world that Ilias created for the two of them there.

Well, sort of. It's true that it's a merely mental plane (Illias even directly states something along the lines this is my territory of thought vs yours), though Illias himself didn't create it. Asmita says this space was a battlefield of their thoughts, and then him and Sisyphos subsequently raised their consciousness to reach it and finally be able to contact Illias.

Illias even states that it was they themselves that reached the mental dimension to contact him, he didn't create it for them. And this is the "higher plane" in question that Asmita says he previously couldn't reach.

But yeah, I definitely agree it's not an actual higher spatial dimension and a new thread to reverse this change is in order. I'll get to it soon.

 

[Death_of_Lems]

With all due respect I think you're making this part up. Nowhere do they ever state anything but Asmita's soul being a shell. The threat from Asmita if the Tenbu Horin landed was because he wanted to test him and see the essence of the 8th sense, and Illias responded with a Lightning Plasma. And Asmita wasn't using the wind as an avatar, it's just that they felt his presence in it (you know, another contradiction to the notion that it's some higher spatial dimension).

Well, sort of. It's true that it's a merely mental plane (Illias even directly states something along the lines this is my territory of thought vs yours), though Illias himself didn't create it. Asmita says this space was a battlefield of their thoughts, and then him and Sisyphos subsequently raised their consciousness to reach it and finally be able to contact Illias.

Illias even states that it was they themselves that reached the mental dimension to contact him, he didn't create it for them. And this is the "higher plane" in question that Asmita says he previously couldn't reach.

But yeah, I definitely agree it's not an actual higher spatial dimension and a new thread to reverse this change is in order. I'll get to it soon.

When Asmita casts the Tenbu Horin on Ilias, a part of his face peels off, but not flesh or blood or any of those things but a mere mass of energy, showing that that body acts like a shell. Ilias using the wind as his avatar is shown when he protects Sisifo from Asmita, and none of this contradicts a higher dimensional existence.

Ilias himself describes the Land of Wind as his mental space, it is obviously created by him.

But honestly, continuing this discussion here is not going to lead anywhere, so I'm just going to be quiet on this subject from now on.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

When Asmita casts the Tenbu Horin on Ilias, a part of his face peels off, but not flesh or blood or any of those things but a mere mass of energy, showing that that body acts like a shell. Ilias using the wind as his avatar is shown when he protects Sisifo from Asmita, and none of this contradicts a higher dimensional existence.

That doesn't mean it's some shell or avatar, it's just how it is in that mental plane shaped by their thoughts. It's literally stated to be his soul (of the mental plane) and this fact isn't even refuted in the chapter. As for the scene where he protected Sisyphos, Asmita himself gives an explanation on it, and it doesn't sound like something pertaining to avatars.

If anything, this description sounds like another flagrant contradiction to anything higher-D.

Ilias himself describes the Land of Wind as his mental space, it is obviously created by him.

But honestly, continuing this discussion here is not going to lead anywhere, so I'm just going to be quiet on this subject from now on.

Well, yeah, the area shaped by his own thoughts is obviously created by him, but the mental plane itself is something that just exists that they could reach, as evident in Sisyphos and Asmita raising their thoughts to perceive it and interact with Illias simultaneously through each other's thoughts.

And sure, we can discuss it further in the new thread.

Edit: One little thing, you're right actually, after reviewing the chapters again, it does seem that the space itself was actually created by Illias/Sisyphos/Asmita's thoughts. Though this only serves to prove further that it isn't a higher spatial dimension.

 

[Hiryu-Z]

Should this be closed then?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Well, as told to, I've created a new thread proposing to just remove this 5-D stuff altogether, because it clearly doesn't work with the details mentioned here, and at either rate the evidence used in the first place doesn't seem to have been sufficient per the Wiki standards after all.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/saint-seiya-8th-sense-5d-hde-removal.154186/