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Small Revision for Dante (Devil May Cry) (Please keep the discussion civil)

DarkGrath

DarkGrath

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The description for "Air Trick" in DMC4 states "Aim above an enemies head and disappear in the blink of an eye with blindingly quick movements". I am aware that people have attempted to use this statement to make absolutely ridiculous claims in the past (I think there was one person who states this makes him Massively FTL? Which I strongly disagree with), but I do still think this can potentially be used as a speed calculation. While DMC is known for hyperbole in its descriptions, it does seem to quite explicitly say that Air Trick involves Dante moving, yet from what I can find on his page it seems as though it's being treated as teleportation. I'm not very mathematically inclined myself, admittedly, but surely moving fast enough that you cannot see him would put his speed calculation as being far beyond Massively Hypersonic+, right? On top of that, you can see quite often in gameplay he seems to perform quite similar feats (such as seemingly disappearing whenever the Saviour attempts to attack him, or vanishing when Dagon attempts to eat him). Unless I am mistaken and this has already been disproven, I do think that this should be added as a speed calculation for him. Again, I would need somebody else's help in that case, as I don't know the exact speed he would have to reach in order for him to seemingly disappear. Does anybody else have any comments to make about this?

P.S: Again, please keep the discussion civil. I cannot stand it when these discussions get toxic because of people being defensive or insulting. Also, I'm not too bothered if this change goes through or not, I just want it to be at least given consideration. I've seen Devil May Cry revision pages in the past, and while many are taken down for good reason, it seems there are a couple of upgrade pages I've seen denied without many reasons presented. Regardless of whether my revision is accepted or denied, I want it to be considered.

EDIT: I've looked online for any sources as to how fast someone would have to be travelling to be completely invisible to the human eye. This post made online about a similar topic (https://physics.stackexchange.com/q...-move-so-fast-that-it-ceases-to-be-observable) seems to suggest that it would not be possible under normal circumstances, due to how light still shines and reflects off of the object. If light can still reflect off of the object in that case, they would still be visible, even if it is just a blur. We can see when Dante starts and finishes his "Air Trick" maneuver that he blurs for a split second, but that otherwise, he is still completely invisible. As far as I am aware, wouldn't that mean that Dante is possibly travelling FTL?

EDIT 2: After some discussion, the Air Trick feat is likely not reliable to show Dante's speed (at least, not past anything we've already seen). The new speed calc is based around Dante dodging a particle beam, which travels at sub-rel or sub-rel+ speeds. My conclusion, which you can see in the comments, is that Dante's profile should be changed to include "Possibly Sub-Relativistic+" in the speed section. On top of that, Air Trick's description explicitly stating it involves moving extraordinarily quickly means that teleportation should be removed from Dante's profile. Thoughts?

Agree: 1 (Silvervigilant) Disagree: Neutral:
 
Silvervigilant said:
Dante is also capable of reacting Mundus particle beams
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...oC/w663-h370-n-rw/Screenshot%2520%2874%29.png

And a particle beam acording to Wikipedia moves at near light speed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_beam

But i dont know if this feat is acceptable or not.
Click to expand...
That is a plausible change I've considered as well. Honestly, there are quite a few revisions I would make to the Devil May Cry verse, but I'm sticking with the more reliable minor ones for now.
 
Silvervigilant said:
ok
i think someone need to calc this
Click to expand...
Again, the source I've found seems to suggest that would be an FTL feat, but if there is anyone more mathematically inclined who says otherwise I would likely take their word for it.
 
Fair enough. Anyone else have any comments?
 
Wasn't "faster than eye" movements in the Subsonic range ?

In DMC2 we have fodder enemies described as being "Lightining Fast", and they are nothing to Dante's speed by that point, but that's it, Dante's speed being Massively Hypersonic+ here in this wiki it's because we don't have any calculable feats until now, it is a lowball, we only know that he is much faster than natural Lightning, and since the Air Trick is with him since DMC3, FTL feats for a fodder Dante is a Outlier

I'm unsure about the Particle Beam, but I tried to calc it using Light Speed and I already saw others trying too, and they were Sub-Rel to Sub-Rel+ Combat/Reaction since Dante only blocked that beam

However, being called a particle beam isn't enough proof to be considered Light Speed here, is there any other proof ?
 
Are you certain about faster than eye movements being in the subsonic range? Again, I assume you would know more about it than I do, but the source I found seems to suggest that anything travelling below the speed of light would still be visible, even if just a blur, because light can still reflect off of it. We can see Dante turn completely invisible except for the beginning and end of the move, suggesting very fast acceleration/deceleration rather than teleportation.

I don't currently have too many comments about the particle beam, since as I mention I had already thought of that but wasn't sure about making it a revision since I didn't have too much to say. However, I will put proper research into it when I can.

It being an outlier seems a bit odd to me. As I mention in my post, he consistently seems to perform similar "disappearing" acts in DMC4. I suppose, with only DMC3 in the equation, it probably would be considered either an outlier or even just a game mechanic. But at least by DMC4, I'm quite confident it's a feat that is being replicated. Also, while I'm not sure how applicable the comparison is, wasn't a similar speed feat for Kratos used? (My memory is slightly blurry in that regard, but didn't he have a dash ability that was considered Massively FTL?)
 
What about when Mundus shot off his particle beam and Trish traveled at least 20+ meters to get to Dante and push him out of the way of said beam?That is more of a speed feat that would scale to Trish and the higher up tiers rather than Dante blocking the beam.
 
Dienomite22 said:
What about when Mundus shot off his particle beam and Trish traveled at least 20+ meters to get to Dante and push him out of the way of said beam?That is more of a speed feat that would scale to Trish and the higher up tiers rather than Dante blocking the beam.
Click to expand...
That is a very interesting point. As I've mentioned, I'm not entirely sure if the particle beam feat is reliable. I'm still sticking to my guns about the Air Trick feat, since at the very least it's description makes it clear that it is not teleportation. However, I'm still figuring things out about the particle beam feat, and in the end it's not my main point here.
 
Faster than eye can see is subsonic.

Dante's best speed feats come from reacting to Blitz who can move as cloud to ground lightning.

Plasma beams shouldn't be treated as light unless it's actual light.

Quicksilver gives him sub rel reactions by slowing down time.
 
I see. Yes, looking through the speed page it does seem like subsonic is considered faster than the eye can see (even though I find this somewhat doubtful myself, admittedly). I'll keep this up, just in case any revelations come into place regarding the particle beam feat.
 
Alright, I have come to my own conclusions as to the particle beam feat. Overall, it's really difficult to piece together, from a strength standpoint, what exactly is going on in that scene (along with the rest of the Mundus boss fight which, goddamn, it's been a source of debate). However, quite simply, I do think the particle beam could be used for a speed calc. As it is, the guide is not exactly vague about what the beam is. It explicitly states that it is a particle beam, and as we know particle beams travel at sub-rel or sub-rel+ speeds. The only possible point here that could contradict this is that the writers of the guide likely didn't take that into account when they wrote that in (that is, they just wanted to find a word that relatively describes what they were talking about). Even so, that seems far too weak to debunk the whole argument, while at the same time the evidence is probably not enough to say definitively that it is the case. So, here's my propersition: Add "Possibly Sub-Relativistic" or "Possibly Sub-Relativistic+" onto Dante's profile for the particle beam feat.
 
DarkGrath said:
Alright, I have come to my own conclusions as to the particle beam feat. Overall, it's really difficult to piece together, from a strength standpoint, what exactly is going on in that scene (along with the rest of the Mundus boss fight which, goddamn, it's been a source of debate). However, quite simply, I do think the particle beam could be used for a speed calc. As it is, the guide is not exactly vague about what the beam is. It explicitly states that it is a particle beam, and as we know particle beams travel at sub-rel or sub-rel+ speeds. The only possible point here that could contradict this is that the writers of the guide likely didn't take that into account when they wrote that in (that is, they just wanted to find a word that relatively describes what they were talking about). Even so, that seems far too weak to debunk the whole argument, while at the same time the evidence is probably not enough to say definitively that it is the case. So, here's my propersition:
Add "Possibly Sub-Relativistic" or "Possibly Sub-Relativistic+" onto Dante's profile for the particle beam feat.
Click to expand...
I agree
 
Oh yes, and also due to the Air Trick description, teleportation should be removed from his profile. I'll add an agree/disagree/neutral section to the post now.
 
You still have to prove that his esoteric magic "lasers" act like natural electromagnetic spectrum if you're trying to calc as such.
 
I'm basing it off the fact that the guide mentioned above explicitly calls it a "particle beam". It doesn't call it his laser, it doesn't call it magic, it's very particular about calling it a particle beam. Again; I mention that it's possible (though I consider it unlikely, given how specific "particle beam" is) that they just randomly picked that word to describe it because it was cool. I find this unlikely, but plausible, so I'm only suggesting a "Possible" level change, not a definitive one.
 
Dr. whiteee said:
Oh I didn't know it was described as such
Click to expand...
Don't worry about it. Just check one of the links above to the guide, it specifically calls that attack a particle beam.
 
Seems pretty solid as there is an explicit distinction between the golden plasma beams, and the particle beam. That's the same one he blocks in the cutscene before the fight right?
 
Do either of you agree/disagree with the revision?
 
The particle beam stuff seems fine.

The Nightmare scaling is fine.

As for Mundus I ideally would call it somewhere between MSS+ and MG. I haven't really analyzed the layout of stars and gases in the scene but at the very least there are countless stars. The word of god confirmation of it being a universe is a buff to the universal argument, and at the very least dispells the hilarious notion that Mundus vs Dante was ALSO an illusion (as regardless of not if you count him saying it's a universe as a fact of the dimensions size, it is 100% confirmation to be a physical creation feat). So I'm still deciding on that end, but at the very least is easy MSS+
 
Dr. whiteee said:
The particle beam stuff seems fine.

The Nightmare scaling is fine.

As for Mundus I ideally would call it somewhere between MSS+ and MG. I haven't really analyzed the layout of stars and gases in the scene but at the very least there are countless stars. The word of god confirmation of it being a universe is a buff to the universal argument, and at the very least dispells the hilarious notion that Mundus vs Dante was ALSO an illusion (as regardless of not if you count him saying it's a universe as a fact of the dimensions size, it is 100% confirmation to be a physical creation feat). So I'm still deciding on that end, but at the very least is easy MSS+
Click to expand...
Thanks for the post, but uh, wrong thread. This one's just about the speed. XD
 
Yeah, gotcha. Let's continue this on the other revision thread though. :)
 
No, unfortunately. Based on what I know of particle beams, I think this feat should just be considered "Possibly Sub-Relativistic+" until we get further clarification.
 
That is fair, but I'd rather keep the thread up until then. We'll see if any new info comes to light when DMC5 comes out, but I highly doubt it (after all, this thread is about a semi-obscure feat all the way back in DMC1). Point is, I don't want to conclude this thread one way or the other before DMC5 comes out just in case, but I still think it is a topic that can be discussed.
 
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