Small Dragon Ball Scaling Revisions

[ByAsura]

Final Form Frieza

First Form Frieza is casually 1.7 Tenatons, while his Final Form is seemingly 40x stronger due to being roughtly comparable to Goku with a 20x Kaio-ken at half power, if not less, which is 68 Tenatons. However, this is only 5.567% away from Small Star level+, which is 71.7855 Tenatons at a minimum, and it doesn't account for the massive increases between his Second and Third Forms, both of whom Goku surpasses (according to Piccolo, even the Frieza who defeated Vegeta was far superior to his Third Form, which is confirmed by Daizenshuu).

Future Trunks/Early Imperfect Cell
On Earth, Frieza wasn't bulked up like he was on Namek, which is shown to be any level above 70%. Gohan even states he can become much, much stronger despite never having seen or felt the full power of his Mecha form. He did overpower King Cold with one arm, who Daizenshuu 7 states is slightly weaker than Frieza, though this seems to conflict with an interview.

• Naho: Freeza was born with a mutation, wasn't he. His whole family is strong, but he alone is especially strong. So up to now, he'd never trained even once, and didn't need to…. So the concept, or rather, the line of thinking, of his strength shooting up all at once by training for the first time, makes me think, "Toriyama-sensei really is amazing"!
• [Par.] Freeza's father. In their organization, he exists as a shadow; other than family and henchman directly under his control, his existence is unknown, even to the Ginyuu Special Squad. He is the head of the strongest family in the universe, but he falls slightly behind Freeza.

I personally prefer the statement from Daizenshuu, because it seems more like the interview is an opinion based on Frieza having a mutation. There's also another interview where Toriyama says they're both mutants and he only has a father (or brother if Cooler suddenly slips his way into canon). Also, many characters say he defeated Frieza as if it's a general thing, so he's likely stronger than him anyway, but this doesn't seem like enough evidence on its own.

Edit: According to another source, Frieza surpassed King Cold ever since he was born (meaning his final form, since he was born in that one and created the others).

Cell, before absorbing another tens of thousands of humans, was stated to be even stronger than Frieza. He's also superior to Trunks, as his Future Timeline self, who didn't absorb 15,000 humans, was superior to the Future Androids, who are much weaker than their present counterparts and more than capable of fighting (this was retconned to 17 and 18) Future Trunks. This one would scale to the Cell we see in DBZ, as his DNA was collected before the timelines diverged, the only difference is that he didn't manage to kill Future Trunks, steal his time machine and hibernate.

Doctor Gero
According to Piccolo, a weakened Vegeta would've lost against Doctor Gero. Vegeta was weakened, but he was still powerful enough to tear off Android 19's arms and one-shot him, suggesting he kept the majority of his power.

"He couldn't even harm a weighted Piccolo."

It did harm Piccolo, he was bleeding quite heavily, it just wasn't powerful enough to kill him. It's more likely that he just regenerated the damages.

"Gero is far inferior to Piccolo, even after absorbing much of his power."

While Gero says he absorbed a huge portio, Piccolo says it's pretty much nothing compared to what he can achieve in short bursts during combat. Piccolo also isn't weak, he is inferior to Vegeta, but Krillin comments on his power.

Conclusion
If these changes go through, Frieza becomes Small Star level+, and Trunks becomes Small Star level or Star level depending on which statement gets accepted. Doctor Gero is also dependent on which interview gets accepted, as even being half as strong as Vegeta would make him Small Star level+.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Ah yes, the DBZ expert has once again returned.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Seems overall solid. I think Gohan's in-universe statement is more valid than interviews with Toriyama, honestly. It sounds like Frieza wasn't anywhere near his 100% Power on Earth, so Trunks probably shouldn't be on the same level as 100% Frieza. It also feels more consistent with Goku easily blocking all of Trunks' slashes with his fingers.

Gero being at least half as strong as Vegeta also seems reasonable.

 

[ByAsura]

The interviews refer to King Cold's power, not Frieza's, and Goku had just returned from training on Yardrat.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yes, but we don't know the extent of Goku's power growth. We know Spirit Control augments power greatly, but Vegeta seems to be a far more advanced student than Goku, with Goku's own spirit having already been more refined than Vegeta and only barely learning IT. Goku also, presumably, spent time recovering and learning to go Super Saiyan at will.

Trunks has potential, but his younger self never displays significantly great improvement in power when training, and he would have lacked most of the training methods of the Z-Fighters. He also lost Gohan, his teacher, as a young teen. The only way Trunks would be so strong, is if it was due to Zenkai boosts I feel.

Overall, it feels more consistent for Trunks to kill a much weaker Frieza, than him killing 100% Frieza easily.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

As for King Cold, isn't it stated in the manga that his power is like Frieza? I believe that was contextually stated with Mecha Frieza in mind. So that indicates he is akin to Mecha Frieza in power, rather than 100% Frieza.

 

[ByAsura]

That's true, but he's still more powerful and that suggests it's entirely possible for him to have grown much more powerful than Frieza, especially since he would've defeated him if Trunks didn't interfere, which also happened in the alternate timeline.

He does, though. He goes from being weaker than base Gohan with one arm to being comparable in three years. Gohan even comments on his potential, and he became way more powerful in Super.

Yamcha or someone says that in the manga, but he was, as I mentioned before, suppressing his power. If I'm wrong, doesn't this still support my point? Trunks overpowered Cold with one arm and killed him.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Trunks literally stomps both Mecha Frieza and King Cold, so he should definitely scale above them. Anyway, I do agree with the "+" sign upgrade given the number of arrows Frieza has in my power scaling blog.

 

[ByAsura]

Frieza wasn't anywhere near his full power, though. That's the problem.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Where is that stated? Plus his Mecha form was supposed to be even stronger than the 100% form. And while still well below Goku's power, Goku still considers Trunks to at least be stronger than Goku was on Namek.

 

[ByAsura]

Read the OP. "Gohan even states he can become much, much stronger despite never having seen or felt the full power of his Mecha form." You can also see that he wasn't buff.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Frieza didn't even go all out as he didn't even start fighting yet. So his power was likely supressed. But when he began fighting, pretty sure he went all out.

 

[ByAsura]

That's neither stated nor shown. He thought he one-shot Trunks and was taken off guard when he fired a blast and carved him to pieces. Even if he did power up, he still wasn't anywhere near as large as he was on Namek.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

That's true, but he's still more powerful and that suggests it's entirely possible for him to have grown much more powerful than Frieza, especially since he would've defeated him if Trunks didn't interfere, which also happened in the alternate timeline.

I won't deny that Goku would have grown considerably stronger, but Namek SS Goku could have defeated Mecha Frieza and King Cold quite easily, based on Gohan claiming Frieza was nowhere near his Namek power.

He does, though. He goes from being weaker than base Gohan with one arm to being comparable in three years.

I am referring to present Trunks, who should have the same potential as Future Trunks. If you wish to refer to Future Trunks, he certainly grew much stronger but all of Gohan's mentors died when he was only 7-8 years old. He would have only had a power in the hundreds of thousands, maximum, then had to train solo for the next 15ish years. It's pretty unlikely, in my opinion, for Future Gohan to be anything like Namek Goku unless Gohan got multiple great zenkai boosts to bump him up to that level.

Gohan even comments on his potential,

There is no doubt that Trunks has much potential, but awakening that potential is an entirely different story with the circumstances he suffered in.

and he became way more powerful in Super.

IIRC that's about a decade after he defeated Cell, and he trained under Shin to defeat Dabura. He also should have gotten zenkai boosts from surviving Black for a long time, and eating a Senzu Bean in the present timeline.

Highly impressive, but he had far more going for his training than when he was younger and surviving the androids.

Yamcha or someone says that in the manga, but he was, as I mentioned before, suppressing his power. If I'm wrong, doesn't this still support my point? Trunks overpowered Cold with one arm and killed him.

It depends on how much King Cold was holding back. If you look into official statements further we can see Frieza was stronger than King Cold at birth. The most you can say for King Cold, is that he has abnormal power like Frieza and the Daizenshuu claims King Cold is only 'slightly behind' Frieza in power. However, it's clear Frieza's 100% isn't natural, persay, considering he can still use it in Super, and Frost (who is far more experienced) also uses it to augment his power further. So it's plausible King Cold is only 'slightly stronger' than Frieza's natural power, not his 100% Power.

@DarkDragonMedeus

Where is that stated? Plus his Mecha form was supposed to be even stronger than the 100% form.

Out of curiosity, where is it stated that Mecha Frieza > 100% Frieza? Frieza claiming as such seems to lack weight, to me, due to Frieza having never used 100% Power on Trunks. It evidently takes time for him to power up, after all. It's plausible that:

100% Mecha Frieza > 100% Frieza > Mecha Frieza

We know Frieza never trained until RoF, so there is zero reason to think he suddenly mastered using 100% power during his recovery post-Namek. The most we could argue is that he could use his full power due to his cybernetics, without bulking up, and that would be pure headcanon.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

He still effortlessly stomped King Cold, who isn't too much weaker than full power Frieza. Still, Goku even post training acknowledged he was strong enough to easily stomp full power Frieza and King Cold. Also, Frieza literally states he's stronger now than he was on Namek and seemed confident he could beat Goku now.

 

[ByAsura]

I won't deny that Goku would have grown considerably stronger, but Namek SS Goku could have defeated Mecha Frieza and King Cold quite easily, based on Gohan claiming Frieza was nowhere near his Namek power.

What's more reliable, Goku having an extremely hard time defeating Frieza at full power and having a similar battle power (150,000,000), or Gohan, Goku's likely biased son, saying he's way more powerful? Even if Namek Saga Goku is capable of this and was just holding back on Namek, how would Gohan know if Goku was holding back?

It makes very little sense, especially since Gohan has only seen Frieza use 70%.

He still effortlessly stomped King Cold, who isn't too much weaker than full power Frieza. Still, Goku even post training acknowledged he was strong enough to easily stomp full power Frieza and King Cold. Also, Frieza literally states he's stronger now than he was on Namek and seemed confident he could beat Goku now.

Yeah, that's fine, if Cold is comparable to Frieza.

He said he could beat Goku, he didn't say he could do it without powering up. The fact that Gohan knows he can become stronger suggests the same Frieza who said that would be unable to without increasing his strength.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Frieza literally states he's stronger now than he was on Namek and seemed confident he could beat Goku now.

He still effortlessly stomped King Cold, who isn't too much weaker than full power Frieza.

As I already argued, Frieza's 100% Power wouldn't be his natural power. Frieza at birth surpassed King Cold. Do you think baby Frieza was waddling around all beefed up when those claims were made?

Still, Goku even post training acknowledged he was strong enough to easily stomp full power Frieza and King Cold.

Where does he claim he could 'easily' defeat Full Power Frieza and King Cold? All he ever stated was that he could have handled Mecha Frieza and King Cold. And, even then, Post-Yardrat Goku is clearly stronger than Future Trunks in the first place.

If you refer to Trunks, Goku just claimed he felt Trunks was capable of handling it, not that Trunks would have 'easily stomped' 100% Frieza. This is even contradicted by Gohan, supposedly, claiming that Trunks had a Ki as large as Namek Goku, and Namek Goku struggled against 100% Frieza until Frieza's power dwindled from strain.

Frieza literally states he's stronger now than he was on Namek

As I already argued the scaling could easily be:

100% Mecha Frieza > 100% Frieza > Mecha Frieza

There is no reason to think Frieza ever used his full power against Future Trunks, and there is no reason to think Mecha Frieza's non-100% was higher than his 100% on Namek.

and seemed confident he could beat Goku now.

Frieza couldn't even sense Ki back then, evident by his belief that he easily defeated Future Trunks. His confidence, at that time, is shaky evidence at best. To add further, as said multiple times, there is no reason to think he ever used his 100% Power on Earth.

The most you can claim is that Future Goku probably defeated 100% Mecha Frieza and King Cold, but even then we have Gohan claiming Trunks is as strong as Namek Goku, and Post-Yardrat Goku clearly being much stronger.

The scaling chain is much closer to:

Yardrat Goku > 100% Mecha Frieza > Namek Goku = Trunks ~ 100% Power Frieza > Mecha Frieza > King Cold

Rather than:

Yardrat Goku > Future Trunks >> Mecha Frieza ~ King Cold >> 100% Power Frieza ~ Namek Goku

Which is the current scaling used.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

What's more reliable, Goku having an extremely hard time defeating Frieza at full power and having a similar battle power (150,000,000), or Gohan, Goku's likely biased son, saying he's way more powerful? Even if Namek Saga Goku is capable of this and was just holding back on Namek, how would Gohan know if Goku was holding back?

I'm not sure what you are arguing here. Are you claiming that Gohan is wrong that Frieza wasn't anywhere near his 100% on Namek? That's a claim you have used, so I'm confused.

I'm stating Yardrat Goku is stronger than Namek Goku, and Namek Goku is comparable to 100% Frieza. My overall claim is:

Yardrat Goku > Namek Goku >/= 100% Frieza > Mecha Frieza >/= King Cold

Which is fitting with my claim that Namek Goku could have easily defeated Mecha Frieza and King Cold.

His younger present self is completely irrelevant, despite the fact that he also clearly has enormous potential (he achieved Super Saiyan in a far shorter time than anyone, and is comparable to Goten, who could fly far quicker than anyone).

No, he IS relevant because he has undergone gravity training and learned from Vegeta since he could walk. He also spars with Goten regularly. His training is objectively superior to Future Trunks, due to his father being far stronger than Future Gohan, and far more experienced, alongside much better training equipment and a rival. He even trained in the Time Chamber for nearly a year.

Future Trunks canonically unlocked Super Saiyan before Gohan died, and had nowhere near the level of training that Present Trunks had. If he had the training of Present Trunks, he could have defeated the Androids.

Trunks grew up in a far different situation. Future Gohan is also irrelevant, it's just that Future Trunks went from more than 40x weaker to being comparable.

It it relevant, because we are comparing Future Trunks to Namek Goku. Future Gohan is missing a limb, had far less training than Present Gohan and has had to self-learn since he was a child. Future Trunks grew much stronger over the course of three years, yes, but is being comparable to Future Gohan even remotely the same as being comparable to Frieza?

when he fought Dabura was unknown,

He was wearing the same outfit he had during the Black saga, but that's not proof of it occurring close to Black I suppose. Regardless, this is a null point. We can't argue how many years he had to improve by the time of fighting Dabura.

but he hadn't even achieved Super Saiyan 2 by this point. It's not stated he trained under Shin in the anime, it's stated that he was instructed by Shin on how to defeat Buu.

This raises an issue, actually. The anime and manga have equivalence canon in DBS, being separate branches of the same story. Can we use the manga canon AND anime canon of Trunks' relationship with Shin to argue the canonicity of scaling in the Dragon Ball manga?

It seems, to me, that we either use both or we use the DBS manga.

Plus, he went from failing to beat Dabura to matching Goku, who is far superior to SS3 Gotenks in base.

• After training with Vegeta in the Time Chamber for two years, learning from watching an experienced warrior

• After an unknown gap of potentially years

• After surviving Black for an unknown period of time, gaining zenkai boosts

Point is, Trunks IS a prodigy but post-Cell, he had the benefit of his experiences in the present timeline, the benefits of likely training under Shin and the benefits of Zenkai boosts along with an unknown gap between Dabura and Black to increase his power to such a degree.

Also, they had years of peace. It's reasonable for Trunks to have seriously trained with Bulma's technology although this would just be my assumption.

Maybe that's exactly how he grew strong enough to defeat Frieza. Did you think of that?

I'm not sure what you are implying here. So, Trunks can grow 40x stronger in the span of three years and then spend years after that, still be weaker than Yardrat Goku and then have his power explode in the Time Chamber? Isn't that just evidence that his growth in DBS is related to his experiences in the present, and Shin, and the peace of the future rather than him being capable of awakening his potential properly in the future?

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

There is no reason to think Frieza was using 100% Power at birth. He can barely maintain it as an adult, it takes much concentration to trigger and it's extremely unstable. It's not a natural increase in power.

To add further, if we use the anime, Frost and Frieza clearly treat 100% like a technique, rather than simply going full power.

If Frieza was stronger than King Cold at 'birth', that means his non-100% was stronger than King Cold. Not his 100%.

It's explicitly stated he's more powerful.

That doesn't say, anywhere, that Mecha Frieza is stronger than 100% Frieza. Just that Frieza is 'powered up' from his previous self. This ties back into the argument that Frieza never used 100% Power in his mechanised state.

Again:

100% Mecha Frieza > 100% Frieza > Mecha Frieza

 

[CryoTheMayo]

k you edited your post, give me a bit and I will respond to the updated post.

 

[ByAsura]

No, I'm claiming that Gohan saying Namek Saga Goku can easily defeat 100% Frieza makes no sense.

No it isn't relevant. Their circumstances are different, and present Trunks has very, very high potential regardless. He even scared Android 18 half to death with a suppressed blast.

I removed that part about Future Trunks being stronger. Also, it's still completely irrelevant, because present Trunks is way stronger than the Androids regardless.

Or we just don't assume anything.

It still shows his potential. Also, Future Trunks was still far inferior to Perfect Cell by the time of the Cell Saga.

I removed that as well. I thought you said "Highly impressive, but he had far more going for his training when he was younger and surviving the androids."

Why would he be holding back at birth, or even know to do that? Plus, the Daizenshuu statement predates that completely.

I thought you were saying Mecha Frieza isn't stronger than Frieza in general.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

It makes very little sense, especially since Gohan has only seen Frieza use 70%.

Gohan was still on Namek when Frieza went 100% Power. Also, in hindsight this seems like a misunderstanding.

I'm referring to Namek FRIEZA not Namek GOKU. Gohan claims Frieza is nowhere near his OWN power back on Namek.

Saiyan genes have an extraordinarily good compatibility with Earthling blood. Because of this, when the two races are mixed together children with formidable power are born. Particularly, those Halflings born without tails hide an exceptional battle power. There are many things that they naturally master from a young age, such as the ordinarily arduous transformation into a Super Saiyan. In spite of having such an outstanding battle sense, they do not have a fondness for battle like a pure Saiyan. Instead, it seems that the violent temperament of the Saiyan has been relaxed through their Earthling blood.

I'm not denying Future Trunks has incredible potential. I am claiming his potential was crippled due to his life in the future. His potential started to awaken when he came to the present timeline and actually had the space, time and peace to develop his training with others.

Also, his Final Form is the natural one, and the point of not training is that he didn't need to get stronger, so having some unnatural strength makes no sense. It's head canon anyway, and doesn't line up with the context of the Daizenshuu statement, which was made years before Dragon Ball Super: Broly.

As I clarify, I am not referring to his true form not being natural. I am stating wielding his 100% Power is unnatural due to the concentration of Ki required to use it, and how it is clearly a technique in the DBS Anime's canon.

Daizenshuu takes less precedence than Broly. Toriyama directly was involved in writing the entire script and plot of Broly, and any canon proceeding the manga takes precedence over anything preceeding that retconned canon.

Fact of the matter is, Frieza's birth power is canonically greater than King Cold's power.

 

[ByAsura]

For some reason, my internet only works half the time, so I'll be a while.

 

[ByAsura]

What Gohan said is that Goku would win the fight, he didn't say anything about being stronger. That's the thing, though, he is a bit stronger than Frieza.

Again, I dropped this point. It doesn't matter how powerful present Trunks is, it doesn't mean he can't surpass Frieza. Also, Trunks has spent most of his time getting beaten half to death and has Super Saiyan, so it's entirely possible that he is stronger than Frieza.

Or, Cold knew his power at birth and the Daizenshuu statement still applies. The Broly statement is vague by nature, so Daizenshuu should take precedence.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

No, I'm claiming that Gohan saying Namek Saga Goku can easily defeat 100% Frieza makes no sense.

As I elaborated on my second reply, this is a misunderstanding.

Are you referring to when I said Gohan claimed Future Trunk's ki was as large as Namek Goku? That's not even a slight indication of claiming Trunks could easily defeat 100% Frieza, especially considering Namek Goku struggled greatly in his fight against Frieza until Frieza's power dwindled from using 100%.

Otherwise, I don't see any contradiction or implication that Gohan thinks Namek Goku could easily defeat 100% Frieza. The closest is me claiming Namek Goku could have easily defeated Mecha Frieza and King Cold, which I claim with the expectation that 100% Frieza > Mecha Frieza.

No it isn't relevant. Their circumstances are different, and present Trunks has very, very high potential regardless. He even scared Android 18 half to death with a suppressed blast.

That's exactly what I am highlighting, though. Future Trunks and Present Trunks have the same potentials, different circumstances. Present Trunks has had far more training than Future Trunks ever did, until he returned to the present and trained.

Comparing Present Trunk's power and Future Trunk's power under different training levels, but the same potential, highlights that Future Trunk's potential was neutered by the chaos of the future, which is why he couldn't just kill 18 and 17 with ease.

I removed that part about Future Trunks being stronger. Also, it's still completely irrelevant, because present Trunks is way stronger than the Androids regardless.

Claiming present Trunks isn't stronger than the Androids would be ridicuolous, considering his vastly better training, same potential and nearly being the same age by the time of Super. Buu Saga Trunks is harder to argue, but Goten and Trunks combined managed to impress Present 18, who is stronger than Future 18.

Or we just don't assume anything.

No, we can't assume anything, and it's ultimately irrelevant how much stronger Trunks became in Super.

It still shows his potential. Also, Future Trunks was still far inferior to Perfect Cell by the time of the Cell Saga.

There was a gap of 10 years after the Cell saga. When Trunks fought Dabura is unknown, but considering Goku and Vegeta both surpassed Dabura (who is akin to Perfect Cell) in under seven years, we have no reason to think Trunks couldn't do the same.

Hell, Future Bulma's technology should be about equal to Present Bulma and she had plenty of peacetime to provide Future Trunks with the same type of training gear that Vegeta had access to during the seven years of peace.

The insane gap is Trunks leaping from Dabura-level to Post-U6 SS3 Goku and the only thing warranting that would be surviving Black.

Regardless, his potential in Super is irrelevant due to my arguments regarding his hindered potential pre-Time Travel.

Why would he be holding back at birth, or even know to do that?

Why would he instinctively be waddling around in 100% Full Power, when it's so difficult and draining to do as an adult? Frieza is a prodigy, but I sincerely doubt baby Frieza came out of the egg/womb/tube lookling like a weightlifting champion.

And, again, Frost and Frieza treat it as a technique you learn, that extends base form, rather than something natural.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

What Gohan said is that Goku would win the fight, he didn't say anything about being stronger. That's the thing, though, he is a bit stronger than Frieza.

Again, I'm not understanding what you are arguing here. I am claiming Namek Goku would easily beat Mecha Frieza, who I am claiming is weaker than 100% Frieza.

Again, I dropped this point. It doesn't matter how powerful present Trunks is, it doesn't mean he can't surpass Frieza.

I bring up these points, because it highlights how quickly Trunks is capable of growing. But, regardless, I'm tired of arguing this.

Also, Trunks has spent most of his time getting beaten half to death and has Super Saiyan, so it's entirely possible that he is stronger than Frieza.

Bulma doesn't have any advanced regenerators like Frieza, to our knowledge, and it seems like Senzu Beans would be in low stock. Trunks could easily have been taken out of commission for months of recovery at a time, which would lower the number of zenkais greatly.

Trunks pretty naturally has Super Saiyan, as well. He had it since he was a young teen and started training under Gohan so having it isn't an indication of his overall power, persay.

It's feasible for Trunks to have surpassed Namek Frieza, but his lacklustre training, lack of healing equipment and lack of training equipment would have all contributed to his potential suffering impediment. All we know is:

• Yardrat Goku surpasses Future Trunks

• Future Trunks stomps Mecha Frieza

• Mecha Frieza is stronger than Namek Frieza, but this doesn't mean he is stronger than 100%

• Trunks never fought 100% Mecha Frieza

With all that in mind, it's feasible for Future Goku to defeat 100% Mecha Frieza and King Cold and for Future Trunks to stomp Mecha Frieza and King Cold, but struggle greatly against 100% Mecha Frieza.

Or, Cold knew his power at birth and the Daizenshuu statement still applies.

King Cold can't sense Ki. The highest power level readings are one million, even by the time of DBS Broly and there is no reason to think Frieza was naturally using 100% of his power at birth.

How in the world would King Cold know the true power that Frieza was hiding at birth?

The Broly statement is vague by nature,

Not...really? It just says Frieza's birth power surpassed King Cold's power.

so Daizenshuu should take precedence.

No, the statements should be treated on a similar level at least. DBS Broly is the current canon, so it supersedes past canon. The only reason the Daizenshuu would be equivalent is due to being a guidebook, whereas the DBS Broly statement is from Saikyo Jump's Saikyo Book.

Anyways, I'm getting tired and it's late. We'll see how the thread is when I come back later, the arguments will likely have progressed much further than my current posts.

 

[ByAsura]

No. Also, that isn't true, Gohan just felt his Ki is the same a Super Saiya, it's shown in the Cell Saga that Cell's Ki confuses the others because they think it's multiple people and Super Saiyan has a specific feel to it. I removed that as well. The contradiction is that Goku struggled heavily against Frieza, as you said before.

I'm saying it's irrelevant because present Trunks is leagues stronger than Frieza, so it doesn't mean that Future Trunks can't be. There's literally nothing supporting this, especially since he still does have massive potential.

I didn't say he was weaker than the Androids, I'm saying he's so much stronger that it doesn't matter if Future Trunks' power is "neutered" in comparison.

His potential isn't massively higher after returning. Vegeta surpassed Gohan by using Babidi to give him more power, and Trunks was many times weaker than Goku to begin with.

And so far you haven't even really proved that Namek Saga Goku is even stronger than Mecha Frieza, unless you mean the level of power he used against Trunks, in which case I agree.

That still means he gets stronger and stronger. Also, we've never seen what Future Bulma has. She's got more advanced technology than present Bulma's pods, which can heal Saiyans like Goku in a day.

Then Future Trunks' lack of facilities is completely irrelevant if he can surpass Frieza anyway.

Cold has a scouter, and we don't even know the circumstances of Frieza's birth, just that he was born asexually. There might be a photo of him being a baby somewhere (I think it's at the end of a manga chapter), but we don't even know if he's weaker.

• Freeza is what you might call a mutated life-form. Strictly speaking, Freeza's father is a mutant with an abnormally high battle power. And, born from his father alone, still in strong possession of the mutant traits, was Freeza.

Daizenshuu should take precedence. There's no "new canon", Toriyama mentions multiple times that he doesn't care for stuff like that. The fact is, we don't know how powerful baby Frieza is or what exactly Cold was referring to, so the Daizenshuu takes precedence.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

The future Androids are not weaker than the Androids from the main timeline, it's just that they were holding back everytime they fought Gohan and Trunks except for the time they killed Gohan.

Android 17 states that back when he nearly beat Gohan to dead, he was only using half of his strength, the future Androids were always toying with Trunks and Gohan.

 

[ByAsura]

They were still weaker. 17 said he was using less than half his power the last time he fought Gohan, he used his full power in the next battle, and Trunks is comparable to this same Gohan before going to the past. It's also stated that Future Goku could've beaten them.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

When is Trunks stated to be equal or around Gohan's level, when is it stated Future Gohan could've beaten them?

 

[ByAsura]

Future Goku, first off. It's stated here that Future Trunks is roughtly comparable to Future Goha. Also, your scaling would put present Android 18 far below present 17.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

what about future Goku, what did he say? Bulma says that Trunks is not stronger than Gohan so he cant beat the Androids, after being hospitalised Trunks admits he was wrong and they are more powerful than he thought. So clearly Future Trunks and Gohan were not as strong or stronger than the Androids, Trunks didnt even understand how he survived which would not make any sense if he was comparable to them. also why would 18 be far below 17

 

[ByAsura]

According to the scan I had (which I chose because I heard it was a very accurate translation), they're around the same level. So it depends on which of the translations are more accurate.

They're weaker, but that doesn't suggest they were holding back against Gohan in his prime or Future Trunks. The bottom line is we don't have anything to suggest the Future Androids are comparable to their main timeline counterparts.

I don't remember exactly why. However, Cell is stronger than the Future Androids, yet he was completely surpassed by Kami-fused Piccolo, who matched present Android 17.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

the scan you used is from **********, which is notorious for being incredible inaccurate. The scan I'm using is the official Viz translation. If Trunks = Gohan, and they killed Gohan when they stopped holding back, the only way for Trunks to survive is if they let him survive by holding back.The only reason 17 killed Gohan was because Gohan ruined his favorite outfit.

cell claiming to be stronger than 17 & 18 is really the only evidence, as trunks would not survive 17 & 18's full strength.

 

[ByAsura]

Or, he's equal and they aren't holding back. That scan doesn't say he's weaker, it says he's not stronger.

Here's the sca. You could say that Cell was being arrogant, but he does have 17 and 18's technical specifications.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

No. Also, that isn't true, Gohan just felt his Ki is the same a Super Saiya, it's shown in the Cell Saga that Cell's Ki confuses the others because they think it's multiple people and Super Saiyan has a specific feel to it. I removed that as well. The contradiction is that Goku struggled heavily against Frieza, as you said before.

Fair enough, I wasn't aware that SS had that feeling. However, I reiterate my point is that 100% Frieza is stronger than Non-100% Mecha Frieza. My claim is while Namek Goku struggled against 100% Frieza, he would have a considerably easier time against Mecha Frieza and King Cold.

I'm saying it's irrelevant because present Trunks is leagues stronger than Frieza, so it doesn't mean that Future Trunks can't be. There's literally nothing supporting this, especially since he still does have massive potential.

I'm dropping this point because it's going nowhere.

And so far you haven't even really proved that Namek Saga Goku is even stronger than Mecha Frieza, unless you mean the level of power he used against Trunks, in which case I agree.

I'm questioning your reasoning here.

You yourself claimed that Mecha Frieza didn't use 100%. Gohan states Frieza grows far stronger. The basis for believing Mecha Frieza > 100% is him referring to himself as 'powered up'. Namek Goku IS stronger than 100% Frieza, and Mecha Frieza, having never used 100%, should be weaker than before.

Yardrat Goku > 100% Mecha Frieza > Future Trunks ~ Namek Goku = 100% Frieza > Mecha Frieza > Frieza

Is scaling I claim. My argument is Trunks is closer in power to Namek Goku than he would be to Yardrat and that Trunks would struggle much more against 100% Frieza than he did Mecha Frieza.

If you argue that Mecha Frieza's non-100% surpasses his Namek 100%, you need to provide more evidence than Frieza claiming he is powered up from Namek, as that can easily mean he is stronger in 100% rather than his baseline surpassing his Namek 100%.

That still means he gets stronger and stronger. Also, we've never seen what Future Bulma has. She's got more advanced technology than present Bulma's pods, which can heal Saiyans like Goku in a day.

Again, dropping these points because it's going nowhere. We know virtually nothing about what Future Trunks had access to. All we can say is that Yardrat Goku is stronger than Future Trunks and Future Trunks stomped Mecha Frieza.

Cold has a scouter,

No. Canonically, the first appearance of Scouters is Frieza replaccing the Saiyan's scout scopes. Even then, scouters by the time of Namek can only go up to 180,000. We can presume there are more advanced scouting equipment that go up to 1,000,000 (due to this being the last power level in canon) and we know by Broly, common scouters cap out at 1 million.

So even if we presume King Cold was using scouters before they gave them to their army, years before, the scouters he had should be nowhere near capable of reading Frieza's power.

and we don't even know the circumstances of Frieza's birth, just that he was born asexually.

So, you are arguing he could have been born like a Cell Junior? That still wouldn't address what I am arguing.

but we don't even know if he's weaker.

I have never argued Frieza was weaker at birth, than he was as an adult. I am arguing the instability and concentration of going 100% contradicts Frieza wielding his maximum power when born. This isn't something he was BORN into, this is something he has to actively tap into. It's a reservoir of power that Frieza finds is extremely difficult to tap into and wield.

Even by the time of Super, Frieza and Frost can both go 100% Power. When Frieza states Frost could achieve Golden with training, he goes "Maybe not Golden..." in other words, 100% Power is something he believes Frost could unlock by training. Even when he explains it, he refers to it as 'that form' and that it's best to use your 'full potential' from the start of a fight.

There is zero evidence that 100% Power is something Frieza would have been born into. It's more reasonable to claim it's power he had to learn to tap into. His true power, that takes concentration and time to unleash.

Daizenshuu should take precedence. There's no "new canon", Toriyama mentions multiple times that he doesn't care for stuff like that.

What...is even this argument? Toriyama not 'caring about canon' doesn't mean anything. If we claim that, we can consider any film and any game to be canon. Hell, we may as well treat the Z and GT anime as canon.

Fact is, we treat Toriyama canon as the highest canon, and Broly is the most recent piece of canon with Toriyama's direct involvement. If it states that Frieza was born stronger than King Cold, then that is canon.

The fact is, we don't know how powerful baby Frieza is or what exactly Cold was referring to, so the Daizenshuu takes precedence.

Yeah, there's an issue with that. In all canon, every member of Frieza's race has used a suppression form, with their true form being sleek and human-sized like Frieza. Frieza and Frost both function this way. Kuriza was designed and written by Toriyama, and works this way and Cooler, who was designed by Toriyama, fights in his true form which resembles the true forms of every other Frieza Race.

The only precedent for a Frieza Race having a true form like King Cold, would be non-canon media such as Xenoverse and Dragon Ball Heroes.

As a result, what is the Daizenshuu referring to when it claims that King Cold is only 'slightly weaker' than Frieza? Based upon all of canon and all of Toriyama's designs, we have every reason to think Cold has a true form beyond his suppression form. So is it his suppression form that is slightly behind Frieza, or his true form?

 

[ByAsura]

Fair enough, I was not aware that SS had a specific feeling. However, I must state my point is that 100% Frieza is stronger than Non-100% Mecha Frieza. So my claim is that while Namek Goku struggled against 100% Frieza, he would have a considerably easier time against Mecha Frieza and King Cold.

You yourself claim that Mecha Frieza didn't use 100% Power. Gohan states Frieza can grow far stronger. The only basis for believing Mecha Frieza > 100% Frieza is him referring to his Mecha state as 'powered up'. Namek Goku IS stronger than 100% Frieza, and Mecha Frieza, having never used 100%, should be weaker than before.

Yardrat Goku > 100% Mecha Frieza > Future Trunks ~ Namek Goku = 100% Frieza > Mecha Frieza > Frieza

Is the overall scaling I am claiming. My argument is that Future Trunks is closer in power to Namek Goku than he would be to Yardrat and that Future Trunks would struggle much more against 100% Frieza than he did Mecha Frieza.

Look at the very quote you were talking about: "unless you mean the level of power he used against Trunks, in which case I agree." I'm not arguing against Trunks being closer to Namek Saga Goku than Yardrat Saga Goku. That doesn't even really matter. The argument is that he's stronger than Frieza and King Cold.

No. Canonically, the first appearance of Scouters is when Frieza replaces the Saiyan's scout scopes with them. And, even then, scouters by the time of Namek can only go up to 180,000. We can presume there are more advanced scouting equipment that go up to 1,000,000 (due to this being the last power level in canon) and we know by DBS Broly, common scouters cap out at a power of 1 million.

So even if we presume King Cold was using scouters before they gave them to their army, years beforehand, the scouters he had should be nowhere near capable of reading Frieza's power.

The scouters aren't the first power measuring devices in Dragon Ball. There's also the less compact Surveillance Scout Scopes. The whole point of scouters is that they're useful in combat situations, and the Frieza army had only begun sharing technology recently by that point.




So, you are arguing he could have been born like a Cell Junior? That still wouldn't address what I am arguing.

I'm not arguing for anything. You conveniently left out the interview I gave.

• Freeza is what you might call a mutated life-form. Strictly speaking, Freeza's father is a mutant with an abnormally high battle power. And, born from his father alone, still in strong possession of the mutant traits, was Freeza.

I have never argued Frieza was weaker at birth, than he was as an adult. I am arguing the instability and concentration of going 100% contradicts Frieza wielding his maximum power when born. This isn't something he was BORN into, this is something he has to actively tap into. It's a reservoir of power that Frieza finds is extremely difficult to tap into and wield.

Even by the time of Super, Frieza and Frost can both go 100% Power. When Frieza states Frost could achieve Golden with training, he goes "Maybe not Golden..." in other words, 100% Power is something he believes Frost could unlock by training. Even when he explains it, he refers to it as 'that form' and that it's best to use your 'full potential' from the start of a fight.

There is zero evidence that 100% Power is something Frieza would have been born into. It's far more reasonable to claim it's power he had to learn to tap into. His true power, that takes concentration and time to unleash.

We also have absolutely nothing to say he couldn't have been born very briefly in his 100% form or that he could maintain it briefly due to the circumstances of his birth. Also, why wouldn't King Cold know about this level of power? You ignored the part where Frost already knows about this form, he just doesn't know how to efficiently fight in it and likely has difficulty controling his power.

What...is even this argument? Toriyama not 'caring about canon' doesn't mean anything. If we claim that, we can consider any film and any game to be canon. Hell, we may as well treat the Z and GT anime as canon.

Fact of the matter is, we treat Toriyama canon as the highest canon, and DBS Broly is the most recent piece of canon with Toriyama's direct involvement. If it states that Frieza was born stronger than King Cold, then that is canon.

That's not what I said, at all. I said he doesn't focus on what's canon and what's not. Toriyama didn't make that, it was posted in Saikyo Jump Dragon Ball Super Saikyo Book by Naho Ooishi and Yoshitaka Nagayama. Toriyama likely had heavy involvement, but he also did in Daizenshuu.

Yeah, there's an issue with that. In all of canon, every single member of Frieza's race has utilised a suppression form, with their true form being sleek and human-sized like Frieza. Frieza and Frost both function this way. Kuriza was designed and written by Toriyama, and works this way and Cooler, who was designed by Toriyama, fights in his true form which resembles the true forms of every other Frieza Race.

The only precedent for a Frieza Race having a true form like King Cold, would be non-canon media such as Xenoverse and Dragon Ball Heroes.

As a result of the above, what is the Daizenshuu referring to when it claims that King Cold is only 'slightly weaker' than Frieza? Based upon all of canon and all of Toriyama's designs, we have every reason to think Cold has a true form beyond his suppression form. So is it his suppression form that is slightly behind Frieza, or his true form?

Each and every suppression form is a camoflague, while using the full power of the Final Form drains heavily on the user. If King Cold had a true form, he would use it, or Toriyama would state this in an interview. He doesn't even transform in GT, despite knowing that there's fighters on Earth who are more than capable of one-shotting him. Frieza's second form also heavily resembles King Cold, and yet we never see the Second Form of anyone else except Frost in Krillin's imagination.

Frieza also states that King Cold could handle Super Saiyan Goku with him. He's likely referring to his past self. This would mean that, at a minimum, King Cold could survive his attacks.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Look at the very quote you were talking about: "unless you mean the level of power he used against Trunks, in which case I agree." I'm not arguing against Trunks being closer to Namek Saga Goku than Yardrat Saga Goku. That doesn't even really matter. The argument is that he's stronger than Frieza and King Cold.

And I'm arguing that while he is stronger than Mecha Frieza and King Cold, that doesn't mean he is far stronger than SS Goku, whom 100% Frieza is comparable to.

Future Trunks = Namek Goku >/= 100% Frieza >> Mecha Frieza

The scouters aren't the first power measuring devices in Dragon Ball. There's also the less compact Surveillance Scout Scopes.

Yes, which I mentioned. Issue is, the far more advanced Scouters can only read up to 180,000 BP by the time of the Namek saga, over 20 years after Frieza introduced scouters into the universe. I won't deny there are more advanced methods of scanning power (in all likelihood) but you are essentially suggesting King Cold could detect Frieza's 100% power level at birth when, as far as we know, he had no easy method of doing so.

MAYBE there is a way to scan beyond a power of one million, the highest recorded in all of Dragon Ball, but until we have evidence of this we can't claim it.

I'm not arguing for anything. You conveniently left out the interview I gave.

No, I didn't. Because that interview doesn't add onto what I responded to. I was responding to your claim that Frieza's birth is likely different to other species.

Piccolo was born an infant and was a child for at least a year. Cell Juniors were born appearing extremely young, being perhaps toddlers. The only way asexual birth is relevant, is if you were arguing that Frieza was either birthed from a machine or born as a toddler like Cell Juniors. Otherwise, it doesn't add to the argument due to 100% Power not being naturally tapped into.

We also have absolutely nothing to say he couldn't have been born very briefly in his 100% form or that he could maintain it briefly due to the circumstances of his birth.

Now you are just arguing blindly. We only have to go on the canon instances of 100% Power presented within the story. In every instance of it, it's a forced increase of power that requires great concentration and time to tap into. Can you show me where Frieza would have been born tapping into it?

Also, why wouldn't King Cold know about this level of power?

I'm not stating he wouldn't know, I am stating that Frieza's birth power surpasses King Cold, which shouldn't be his 100% Power. You are arguing Frieza was born in his 100% Power state, and King Cold had the means of scanning that power, which I contest.

You ignored the part where Frost already knows about this form,

No, I'm not. You miss the context where Frieza refers to it as something you achieve by training. Frost has actually fought in wars and likely trained. He's more experienced than Frieza, if less prodigious.

That's not what I said, at all. I said he doesn't focus on what's canon and what's not. Toriyama didn't make that, it was posted in Saikyo Jump Dragon Ball Super Saikyo Book by Naho Ooishi and Yoshitaka Nagayama. Toriyama likely had heavy involvement, but he also did in Daizenshuu.

And if Toriyama contradicts what he himself has stated in the past, then you have to decide which one is 'more canon'. My argument is that Toriyama can simply retcon what he has said in the past.

Each and every suppression form is a camoflague, while using the full power of the Final Form drains heavily on the user.

Yes, and King Cold's form is identical to one of those camoflague forms.

If King Cold had a true form, he would use it, or Toriyama would state this in an interview.

There is absolutely zero reason to believe Toriyama would bring it up in an interview. This is your own expectation, it is subjective rather than objective as a claim.

He doesn't even transform in GT, despite knowing that there's fighters on Earth who are more than capable of one-shotting him.

GT isn't canon. If you want to argue for the anime canon, you will have to make adjustments for the anime scaling relative to canon scaling.

Frieza's second form also heavily resembles King Cold, and yet we never see the Second Form of anyone else except Frost in Krillin's imagination.

Yes, one of Frieza's suppression forms resemble King Cold. That's the entire reason to argue that King Cold wasn't in his true form. Frost's first form and assault forms both heavily resemble Frieza's first form and third form, is that just a coincidence? Kuriza's first form and true form are both highly similar to Frieza's forms, is that a coincidence?

Fact of the matter is, Frieza was asexually born from King Cold. Why would Frieza look so incredibly different from his father, in terms of their true forms?

Frieza also states that King Cold could handle Super Saiyan Goku with him. He's likely referring to his past self. This would mean that, at a minimum, King Cold could survive his attacks.

And where is it stated that Frieza isn't referring to Cold's true form, or himself going 100% Power? You are just assuming Frieza is referring to King Cold in his current form.

 

[ByAsura]

Again, Scouters are designed to be portable devices for combat.

I thought you were saying something else. How it compares to Piccolo's birth is irrelevant, you can't say they're similar just because they were both born asexually. We don't even know if Cold can lay an egg.

No, we don't know the circumstances behind his birth. That's what I'm arguing.

He's talking about his Golden Form, and then asks if he can utilize his full power, which he can with absolute ease.

It doesn't even necessarily retcon what Daizenshuu said, though. King Cold could've grown stronger in between Frieza's birth and the Android Saga, it's not stated that he doesn't train.

One, that nobody else in Dragon Ball canon has shown (outside a few games, I think). Why is it speculation? There is literally no guide saying he can, one guide does speculate that he's the type who seems like he could, but there's nothing to suggest he can.

I brought up GT because you were also bringing up extra media, like Kuriza and Cooler (both of whom also don't have a Second Form or Third Form, the latter doesn't even have a Third Form).

Right after, he says "...but now that I've powered up, I could likely take care of him myself." Regardless, he'd still have to survive against Super Saiyan Goku in the first place.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Again, Scouters are designed to be portable devices for combat.

Okay, can you point to the scouting equipment that isn't portable then? We literally know nothing about their limitations or the extent of any 'what-if' scouting technology. We only know Scout Scopes and Scouters.

Even if we assume King Cold had the scanning tech to accurately gauge Frieza's power level, that still wouldn't indicate Frieza was in his 100% Power state when born.

How it compares to Piccolo's birth is irrelevant, you can't say they're similar just because they were both born asexually.

You miss my point in comparing it to Cell Junior. Cell was created from Saiyan, Namekian and Frieza DNA. Frieza's Race and Namekians both seemingly reproduce asexually. Namekians are hatched from eggs, but Cell Juniors are birthed directly from the tail.

The closest indication to Frieza's asexual birth, would be how Cell gives birth to his children. However, whether Frieza would have been born a toddler is unknown due to namekians seemingly being born as toddlers and King Piccolo's ability to birth fully grown mutant namekians.

He's talking about his Golden Form, and then asks if he can utilize his full power, which he can with absolute ease.

He states Frost may be able to achieve Golden with training then says 'Maybe not this' and then states 'You should be able to do this' and goes 100% Power. Contextually speaking, Frieza isn't claiming that Frost would know 100% naturally. He is claiming Frost should be capable of learning it.

It doesn't even necessarily retcon what Daizenshuu said, though. King Cold could've grown stronger in between Frieza's birth and the Android Saga, it's not stated that he doesn't train.

This is your personal assumption, it has no bearing on canon. Frieza and King Cold share mutations and Frieza deemed King Cold threatening enough to not revive him. Why would King Cold lack Frieza's ability to rapidly grow stronger? To add further, it goes against King Cold's depicted character of laziness, pragmatism and underhandedness.

One, that nobody else in Dragon Ball canon has shown (outside a few games, I think). Why is it speculation? There is literally no guide saying he can, one guide does speculate that he's the type who seems like he could, but there's nothing to suggest he can.

You literally contradicted yourself by mentioning a guide does state that King Cold seems to be the type to transform. That completely invalidates your claim that no guides show he is capable.

Again, Frieza was BORN from King Cold. Why would King Cold look so different from the child he directly birthed? Toriyama designed and wrote Kuriza, and Kuriza looks highly similar to Frieza. Frost, Frieza and Cooler all share the same human-sized birth form as well, and all were designed by Toriyama.

This argument is essentially going against every bit of canon, every Toriyama design and even a guidebook that states that King Cold should be the type to transform because of your headcanon that he doesn't transform.

I brought up GT because you were also bringing up extra media, like Kuriza and Cooler (both of whom also don't have a Second Form or Third Form, the latter doesn't even have a Third Form).

This isn't even remotely mutual. You are arguing the writing of GT, which Toriyama had zero involvement with. Toriyama literally designed Kuriza and Cooler, and wrote Kuriza. Why would Toriyama dictate if Toei wants King Cold to transform in their non-canon anime? Especially when King Cold was incredibly minor in that appearance.

Right after, he says "...but now that I've powered up, I could likely take care of him myself." Regardless, he'd still have to survive against Super Saiyan Goku in the first place.

Again, there is zero reason to think Frieza can use his full power without bulking up like on Namek. He has zero training and can still do it even after training for one and a half years in Super. All that statement indicates is that Frieza's overall power is higher than Namek, not that his non-100% surpasses his 100%.

100% Mecha > 100% Namek > Mecha > Namek

 

[ByAsura]

The scouter surveillance devices that are also on Saiyan Pods. They're less advanced than scouters, though, but it's entirely possible that Frieza has advanced versions on his home.

Cell also has strange and warped abilities by having the other fighters as part of his DNA, and he's not just the culmination of those parts, Cell is also biomechanical and capable of incorporating people into his body. The Cell Juniors are essentially doppelgangers of Cell that have less power. Frieza does not meet these characteristics. Maybe he is born through Cold's tail, that's fine, but it's unknown if this stems from Frieza's genes.

That may be true, although Frost is also from a completely different Universe and Frieza may not have been completely aware of all his abilities. Also, he doesn't say it's a product of training, it seems more like a tangent, he says Frost should be able to bulk up, which he can.

If one guide says he's weaker than Frieza at birth, and another says he's almost comparable when Frieza is an adult, then it's entirely possible and doesn't contradict your guides. I didn't state he lacks Frieza's ability to grow stronger, where did this argument even come from?

No, I said there's no confirmatio, the Dragon Book said he seems like the type who could transform, not that he has other forms in stock, let alone ones that actually enhance his power. This seems to stem from their appearance being similar. Why would King Cold and Frieza have to look the same? They're mutants, and King Cold had every opportunity to transform against Trunks. Also, you continually berate me for speculation, yet this entire argument is based on speculation.

• "His appearance bears a close resemblance to Freeza's second form, and Cold also appears to be the type whose abilities increase by transforming."

And yet Cooler has a secret form that Frieza hasn't shown in any piece of media, and he's only shown in a form that resembles Frieza's base. Also, Kuriza is meant to be extremely similar to Frieza, so of course he'd have the same forms.

You've missed the point entirely. I'm saying that Frieza was talking about his past self. Mecha Frieza being able to increase his power (something that I already put in the OP because I fully 100% agree with you here) has nothing to do with it.