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Small Dragon Ball Scaling Revisions
- Thread starter ByAsura
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Asura, just wondering, but could part of Mecha Frieza's ki be hidden due to being machine parts like the Cyborgs (Androids)?
Tien "He's not alone! There's another an even greater ki!" DB 329 p 12.
Gohan "This is nothing. He can increase it a lot more." DB 330 p 9
Frieza "I want to show him how strong I've become" DB 329 p 14 / "With my increased power, I could kill him by myself" DB 330 p 13.
Could he feel like...say 50% Frieza while actually having say 100% Frieza power with his upgrades while King Cold appears to be like 70% Frieza and has the power of 70% Frieza. [Not that I'm in any way implying those are the actual percentages...cause that is in no way stated anywhere].
Tien "He's not alone! There's another an even greater ki!" DB 329 p 12.
Gohan "This is nothing. He can increase it a lot more." DB 330 p 9
Frieza "I want to show him how strong I've become" DB 329 p 14 / "With my increased power, I could kill him by myself" DB 330 p 13.
Could he feel like...say 50% Frieza while actually having say 100% Frieza power with his upgrades while King Cold appears to be like 70% Frieza and has the power of 70% Frieza. [Not that I'm in any way implying those are the actual percentages...cause that is in no way stated anywhere].
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The scouter surveillance devices that are also on Saiyan Pods. They're less advanced than scouters, though, but it's entirely possible that Frieza has advanced versions on his home.
It makes sense for them to have more advanced variants, but we know absolutely nothing about them, if they exist or how they compare to their scouter counterparts. Again, they had over 20 years to develop scouters and their highest quality one (Ginyu) could only go up to 180,000. We know there must be some other method to gauge a higher power level, considering Frieza claims a power of 1,000,000 but he never mentions power levels in his third form or true form.
It's all a moot point, because we have no way to contest or agree on their limitations.
Cell also has strange and warped abilities by having the other fighters as part of his DNA, and he's not just the culmination of those parts, Cell is also biomechanical and capable of incorporating people into his body. The Cell Juniors are essentially doppelgangers of Cell that have less power. Frieza does not meet these characteristics. Maybe he is born through Cold's tail, that's fine, but it's unknown if this stems from Frieza's genes.
Yes, and Cell is the only reason I would think Frieza could use 100% Power when born. If he was born toddler-like and capable like the Cell Juniors, I could imagine his birth power being his 100% Power but if he were just an infant...I can't say I recognise him concentrating his energy and bulking up when born.
That may be true, although Frost is also from a completely different Universe and Frieza may not have been completely aware of all his abilities. Also, he doesn't say it's a product of training, it seems more like a tangent, he says Frost should be able to bulk up, which he can.
Issue is, we don't know the nature of Frieza's 100% Power. If Frieza is claiming Frost should inherently be capable of it, rather than training to learn it, then that implies 100% Power is something that either everyone can do or only Frieza's race.
Power-stressing does exist with Roshi, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Cell, Caulifa and so on but their variants all lower the mobility of the user. Frieza's 100% Power seems to have no such constraint, so I can't conclusively claim it's power-stressing.
Can anyone enter a 100% Power state, then? Frieza and Frost are the only characters to ever do so. The closest instance to it, other than them, would be Manga Hit going full power and being unable to maintain it for long but Hit certainly didn't bulk up when using it.
So either it's a specific technique that you learn by training or it's inherent to Frieza's species. Regardless of the answer, there is still the issue of it taking time, concentration and tremendous energy to trigger. Which is why I question Baby Frieza using that power when born, due to how unstable and difficult it is for Frieza to utilise as an adult. His body expands unnaturally when using it, after all.
If one guide says he's weaker than Frieza at birth, and another says he's almost comparable when Frieza is an adult, then it's entirely possible and doesn't contradict your guides. I didn't state he lacks Frieza's ability to grow stronger, where did this argument even come from?
That guide only claims King Cold is 'slightly weaker' than Frieza. If he had Frieza's ability to grow stronger, than any training should have made him much stronger not just comparable. Frieza can grow hundreds of times stronger by simply training, easily. By claiming he trained, that would require for him to lack Frieza's mutated power growth, otherwise he should be significantly stronger than Frieza, not just comparable.
Also, we know Frieza never trained a day in his life. By claiming Adult Frieza > Baby Frieza, we have to assume that growing from an infant to an adult naturally increased Frieza's power. Which isn't wrong, persay, but it's shaky territory due to the lack of evidence of how physical development and Ki interacts.
No, I said there's no confirmatio, the Dragon Book said he seems like the type who could transform, not that he has other forms in stock, let alone ones that actually enhance his power.
Frieza's transformations don't increase his power, they lessen his power. The only augmented form that existed back then, was Cooler's 5th form which is not canon. If we are treating the Dragon Book as canon, then it can not be referring to Cooler. Therefore, King Cold's transformation would suppress his power. The act of 'transform' would only increase his power in the context of reaching his True Form.
Also, while I lack the Dragon Book and can't verify this...the Dragon Ball wiki claims that:
"t is stated in the Dragon Book that King Cold appears to be the type who increases his abilities by transforming. "
If this is true, then King Cold could only have a True Form beyond his suppression form, due to 5th form being non-canon and Golden not existing back then. In conclusion, the Dragon Book indicates that King Cold wasn't in his true form on Earth.
This seems to stem from their appearance being similar. Why would King Cold and Frieza have to look the same?
They are father and son, and we have every reason to believe Frieza's race only reproduces asexually. Why would Frieza and King Cold look so vastly different, when Kuriza and Frieza's true forms are nearly identical, barring some minute differences? If this were true, Frost (a person from an entirely different universe) would resemble Frieza moreso than his own father.
Look at Cell asexually producing the Cell Juniors, their physical differences are minor. The namekians? Their differences are incredibly minor as well. King Cold and Frieza? Apparently their skin tones, armor, gems, colouration and sizes are completely and utterly different.
You could bring up Toriyama's design for Cooler, then, but that's also flawed. Cooler is much closer in appearance to Frieza, than he is King Cold. Why do Kuriza, Cooler, Frost and Frieza all look similar in their true forms (with Kuriza and Frieza near-identical) when King Cold is so starkly different?
It makes little sense.
and King Cold had every opportunity to transform against Trunks.
As we see with Frieza and Frost, it takes considerable time to transform, which Trunks wouldn't afford King Cold. To add further, if King Cold is weaker than Frieza then King Cold would have little reason to believe he can defeat Trunks by himself. Hence why King Cold attempted to manipulate and trick him.
To add further, Cold believed Trunks' power came from his sword and obtained said sword. The time between his death and the realisation that the sword was useless was...quite little.
Maybe King Cold transformed in the future timeline with Goku allowing it, but Trunks would have had knowledge of this and prevented it with his lack of mercy.
And yet Cooler has a secret form that Frieza hasn't shown in any piece of media, and he's only shown in a form that resembles Frieza's base.
Cooler has been hinted as having three lesser forms, like Frieza, and his higher form has no relation to the nature of his base form.
Also, Kuriza is meant to be extremely similar to Frieza, so of course he'd have the same forms.
I'm lost. Can you indicate why your source is relevant?
You've missed the point entirely. I'm saying that Frieza was talking about his past self.
Well, apparently I'm still missing the point. That chain of argument is regarding whether or not King Cold's (suppressed) form is comparable to Frieza's true form. My claim was that nothing indicates Frieza meant King Cold's current form, or his non-100% form being capable of handling Namek Goku. And your linked scan doesn't seem to contest that.
Let me clarify how I am currently viewing the scaling chain:
Yardrat Goku > 100% Mecha Frieza ~ Future Trunks = Namek Goku >/= 100% Frieza > Mecha Frieza > Frieza >/= True Cold > Suppression Cold
Based upon the above scaling, Yardrat Goku would curbstomp a King Cold's true form (which is lesser than Frieza's birth power) and would defeat 100% Mecha Frieza. Future Trunks, who I claim is comparable to Namek Goku, can easily curbstomp Mecha Frieza and Suppression Cold, but would have a far harder time against 100% Mecha Frieza and True Cold, possibly even losing.
It makes sense for them to have more advanced variants, but we know absolutely nothing about them, if they exist or how they compare to their scouter counterparts. Again, they had over 20 years to develop scouters and their highest quality one (Ginyu) could only go up to 180,000. We know there must be some other method to gauge a higher power level, considering Frieza claims a power of 1,000,000 but he never mentions power levels in his third form or true form.
It's all a moot point, because we have no way to contest or agree on their limitations.
Cell also has strange and warped abilities by having the other fighters as part of his DNA, and he's not just the culmination of those parts, Cell is also biomechanical and capable of incorporating people into his body. The Cell Juniors are essentially doppelgangers of Cell that have less power. Frieza does not meet these characteristics. Maybe he is born through Cold's tail, that's fine, but it's unknown if this stems from Frieza's genes.
Yes, and Cell is the only reason I would think Frieza could use 100% Power when born. If he was born toddler-like and capable like the Cell Juniors, I could imagine his birth power being his 100% Power but if he were just an infant...I can't say I recognise him concentrating his energy and bulking up when born.
That may be true, although Frost is also from a completely different Universe and Frieza may not have been completely aware of all his abilities. Also, he doesn't say it's a product of training, it seems more like a tangent, he says Frost should be able to bulk up, which he can.
Issue is, we don't know the nature of Frieza's 100% Power. If Frieza is claiming Frost should inherently be capable of it, rather than training to learn it, then that implies 100% Power is something that either everyone can do or only Frieza's race.
Power-stressing does exist with Roshi, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Cell, Caulifa and so on but their variants all lower the mobility of the user. Frieza's 100% Power seems to have no such constraint, so I can't conclusively claim it's power-stressing.
Can anyone enter a 100% Power state, then? Frieza and Frost are the only characters to ever do so. The closest instance to it, other than them, would be Manga Hit going full power and being unable to maintain it for long but Hit certainly didn't bulk up when using it.
So either it's a specific technique that you learn by training or it's inherent to Frieza's species. Regardless of the answer, there is still the issue of it taking time, concentration and tremendous energy to trigger. Which is why I question Baby Frieza using that power when born, due to how unstable and difficult it is for Frieza to utilise as an adult. His body expands unnaturally when using it, after all.
If one guide says he's weaker than Frieza at birth, and another says he's almost comparable when Frieza is an adult, then it's entirely possible and doesn't contradict your guides. I didn't state he lacks Frieza's ability to grow stronger, where did this argument even come from?
That guide only claims King Cold is 'slightly weaker' than Frieza. If he had Frieza's ability to grow stronger, than any training should have made him much stronger not just comparable. Frieza can grow hundreds of times stronger by simply training, easily. By claiming he trained, that would require for him to lack Frieza's mutated power growth, otherwise he should be significantly stronger than Frieza, not just comparable.
Also, we know Frieza never trained a day in his life. By claiming Adult Frieza > Baby Frieza, we have to assume that growing from an infant to an adult naturally increased Frieza's power. Which isn't wrong, persay, but it's shaky territory due to the lack of evidence of how physical development and Ki interacts.
No, I said there's no confirmatio, the Dragon Book said he seems like the type who could transform, not that he has other forms in stock, let alone ones that actually enhance his power.
Frieza's transformations don't increase his power, they lessen his power. The only augmented form that existed back then, was Cooler's 5th form which is not canon. If we are treating the Dragon Book as canon, then it can not be referring to Cooler. Therefore, King Cold's transformation would suppress his power. The act of 'transform' would only increase his power in the context of reaching his True Form.
Also, while I lack the Dragon Book and can't verify this...the Dragon Ball wiki claims that:
"t is stated in the Dragon Book that King Cold appears to be the type who increases his abilities by transforming. "
If this is true, then King Cold could only have a True Form beyond his suppression form, due to 5th form being non-canon and Golden not existing back then. In conclusion, the Dragon Book indicates that King Cold wasn't in his true form on Earth.
This seems to stem from their appearance being similar. Why would King Cold and Frieza have to look the same?
They are father and son, and we have every reason to believe Frieza's race only reproduces asexually. Why would Frieza and King Cold look so vastly different, when Kuriza and Frieza's true forms are nearly identical, barring some minute differences? If this were true, Frost (a person from an entirely different universe) would resemble Frieza moreso than his own father.
Look at Cell asexually producing the Cell Juniors, their physical differences are minor. The namekians? Their differences are incredibly minor as well. King Cold and Frieza? Apparently their skin tones, armor, gems, colouration and sizes are completely and utterly different.
You could bring up Toriyama's design for Cooler, then, but that's also flawed. Cooler is much closer in appearance to Frieza, than he is King Cold. Why do Kuriza, Cooler, Frost and Frieza all look similar in their true forms (with Kuriza and Frieza near-identical) when King Cold is so starkly different?
It makes little sense.
and King Cold had every opportunity to transform against Trunks.
As we see with Frieza and Frost, it takes considerable time to transform, which Trunks wouldn't afford King Cold. To add further, if King Cold is weaker than Frieza then King Cold would have little reason to believe he can defeat Trunks by himself. Hence why King Cold attempted to manipulate and trick him.
To add further, Cold believed Trunks' power came from his sword and obtained said sword. The time between his death and the realisation that the sword was useless was...quite little.
Maybe King Cold transformed in the future timeline with Goku allowing it, but Trunks would have had knowledge of this and prevented it with his lack of mercy.
And yet Cooler has a secret form that Frieza hasn't shown in any piece of media, and he's only shown in a form that resembles Frieza's base.
Cooler has been hinted as having three lesser forms, like Frieza, and his higher form has no relation to the nature of his base form.
Also, Kuriza is meant to be extremely similar to Frieza, so of course he'd have the same forms.
I'm lost. Can you indicate why your source is relevant?
You've missed the point entirely. I'm saying that Frieza was talking about his past self.
Well, apparently I'm still missing the point. That chain of argument is regarding whether or not King Cold's (suppressed) form is comparable to Frieza's true form. My claim was that nothing indicates Frieza meant King Cold's current form, or his non-100% form being capable of handling Namek Goku. And your linked scan doesn't seem to contest that.
Let me clarify how I am currently viewing the scaling chain:
Yardrat Goku > 100% Mecha Frieza ~ Future Trunks = Namek Goku >/= 100% Frieza > Mecha Frieza > Frieza >/= True Cold > Suppression Cold
Based upon the above scaling, Yardrat Goku would curbstomp a King Cold's true form (which is lesser than Frieza's birth power) and would defeat 100% Mecha Frieza. Future Trunks, who I claim is comparable to Namek Goku, can easily curbstomp Mecha Frieza and Suppression Cold, but would have a far harder time against 100% Mecha Frieza and True Cold, possibly even losing.
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I might have missed out on a few points. It's honestly because I don't really have the energy to continue this any more.
That's because Toriyama made the decision to remove power levels entirely. They spoiled fights. But, as you said, it's a moot point.
Issue is, we don't know the nature of Frieza's 100% Power. If Frieza is claiming Frost should inherently be capable of it, rather than training to learn it, then that implies 100% Power is something that either everyone can do or only Frieza's race.
Power-stressing does exist with Roshi, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Cell, Caulifa and so on but their variants all lower the mobility of the user. Frieza's 100% Power seems to have no such constraint, so I can't conclusively claim it's power-stressing.
Can anyone enter a 100% Power state, then? Frieza and Frost are the only characters to ever do so. The closest instance to it, other than them, would be Manga Hit going full power and being unable to maintain it for long but Hit certainly didn't bulk up when using it.
So either it's a specific technique that you learn by training or it's inherent to Frieza's species. Regardless of the answer, there is still the issue of it taking time, concentration and tremendous energy to trigger. Which is why I question Baby Frieza using that power when born, due to how unstable and difficult it is for Frieza to utilise as an adult. His body expands unnaturally when using it, after all.
Power stressing is a catch-all term that refers to any sort of power up that puts stress on the user in order to increase their power, so technically Super Saiyan Grade 2 (which uses a ton of energy in comparison to Super Saiyan, or even Super Saiyan 2), Legendary Super Saiyan and the Kaio-ken are all power stressed forms despite increasing speed. I suppose even Super Saiyan before mastering it could be considered one if you want to be as inclusive as possible.
It's certainly possible nobody else can power up like that, Frost can because he's Frieza's equivalent, Daizenshuu 6 even says Cooler lacks that ability (it could also be this source) due to not having his brother's immense power. I mean, maybe, but that's a whole other can of worms. You could even argue that King Piccolo's full power is a power stressed mode, because using it decreases his life span.
Anyway, as you said, there isn't a lot of evidence here. Maybe we should just drop this point.
That guide only claims King Cold is 'slightly weaker' than Frieza. If he had Frieza's ability to grow stronger, than any training should have made him much stronger not just comparable. Frieza can grow hundreds of times stronger by simply training, easily. By claiming he trained, that would require for him to lack Frieza's mutated power growth, otherwise he should be significantly stronger than Frieza, not just comparable.
Also, we know Frieza never trained a day in his life. By claiming Adult Frieza > Baby Frieza, we have to assume that growing from an infant to an adult naturally increased Frieza's power. Which isn't wrong, persay, but it's shaky territory due to the lack of evidence of how physical development and Ki interacts.
I didn't really say he did. I was responding to you saying I said he lacked Frieza's potential. You just shot yourself in the foot with this point; he doesn't need Frieza's potential to become almost comparable to him.
I didn't really bring up this point. It helps my argument if anything, because King Cold could still be weaker than Baby Frieza and Adult Frieza at the same time.
Frieza's transformations don't increase his power, they lessen his power. The only augmented form that existed back then, was Cooler's 5th form which is not canon. If we are treating the Dragon Book as canon, then it can not be referring to Cooler. Therefore, King Cold's transformation would suppress his power. The act of 'transform' would only increase his power in the context of reaching his True Form.
Also, while I lack the Dragon Book and can't verify this...the Dragon Ball wiki claims that:
"t is stated in the Dragon Book that King Cold appears to be the type who increases his abilities by transforming. "
If this is true, then King Cold could only have a True Form beyond his suppression form, due to 5th form being non-canon and Golden not existing back then. In conclusion, the Dragon Book indicates that King Cold wasn't in his true form on Earth.
Yes, I know, and my argument is that King Cold's transformations could be lesser ones. Kuriza is also non-canon. I wasn't talking about Cooler, I was just mentioning that he had different forms despite Kuriza being similar.
You've made a lot of leaps of logic there. Also, the full line seems to imply that this is because he looks similar to Frieza's second form, and it says he appears to without any evidence or citations.
Look at Cell asexually producing the Cell Juniors, their physical differences are minor. The namekians? Their differences are incredibly minor as well. King Cold and Frieza? Apparently their skin tones, armor, gems, colouration and sizes are completely and utterly different.
You could bring up Toriyama's design for Cooler, then, but that's also flawed. Cooler is much closer in appearance to Frieza, than he is King Cold. Why do Kuriza, Cooler, Frost and Frieza all look similar in their true forms (with Kuriza and Frieza near-identical) when King Cold is so starkly different?
It makes little sense.
I didn't say they don't, I brought up this statement if you remember. Why do they all have to look the same just because Frieza and his non-canon, gag manga son do? Frost is Frieza's Universe 6 equivalent, they're two sides of the same coin like Champa and Beerus, so he probably does resemble Frieza more than his father.
Edited Whis explains Universe 6 & Universe 7
Piccolo was only the same as King Piccolo because that was a clone with all his powers and abilities. Different Namekians also have different abilities depending on their creed.
As we see with Frieza and Frost, it takes considerable time to transform, which Trunks wouldn't afford King Cold. To add further, if King Cold is weaker than Frieza then King Cold would have little reason to believe he can defeat Trunks by himself. Hence why King Cold attempted to manipulate and trick him.
To add further, Cold believed Trunks' power came from his sword and obtained said sword. The time between his death and the realisation that the sword was useless was...quite little.
Maybe King Cold transformed in the future timeline with Goku allowing it, but Trunks would have had knowledge of this and prevented it with his lack of mercy.
Frost's transformation didn't take much time, it's also a very well known trope that characters in Dragon Ball stand around and wait for others to transform. King Cold is weaker than Frieza, let alone Mecha Frieza, and, as you mentioned, he believed the key to Trunks' power was his sword.
No, Cell's account (who's from a timeline where everything was the same before Trunks destroyed the Androids) shows that King Cold didn't transform. Although, it's just a copy-paste of drawings.
Cooler has been hinted as having three lesser forms, like Frieza, and his higher form has no relation to the nature of his base form.
I just watched Cooler's revenge, and I can't find anything of the sort. According to the wiki, Weekly Shonen Jump actually says he doesn't need any lower forms because he can control his full power. It also doesn't matter whether Cooler has these lower forms or not, because they're created.
I'm lost. Can you indicate why your source is relevant?
Because, unlike Cooler and Cold, Kuriza is directly meant to be similar to Frieza.
Well, apparently I'm still missing the point. That chain of argument is regarding whether or not King Cold's (suppressed) form is comparable to Frieza's true form. My claim was that nothing indicates Frieza meant King Cold's current form, or his non-100% form being capable of handling Namek Goku. And your linked scan doesn't seem to contest that.
King Cold doesn't have a suppressed form in canon, nor are we directly told or even lead to believe this when Dragon Ball Issue #330 came out in 1991.
No, it measured 180,000. It didn't explode upon reaching that figure, suggesting it can go even higher. There are different generations of scouters, and the weakest shown could only reach 22,000 before exploding.CryoTheMayo said:
That's because Toriyama made the decision to remove power levels entirely. They spoiled fights. But, as you said, it's a moot point.
Issue is, we don't know the nature of Frieza's 100% Power. If Frieza is claiming Frost should inherently be capable of it, rather than training to learn it, then that implies 100% Power is something that either everyone can do or only Frieza's race.
Power-stressing does exist with Roshi, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Cell, Caulifa and so on but their variants all lower the mobility of the user. Frieza's 100% Power seems to have no such constraint, so I can't conclusively claim it's power-stressing.
Can anyone enter a 100% Power state, then? Frieza and Frost are the only characters to ever do so. The closest instance to it, other than them, would be Manga Hit going full power and being unable to maintain it for long but Hit certainly didn't bulk up when using it.
So either it's a specific technique that you learn by training or it's inherent to Frieza's species. Regardless of the answer, there is still the issue of it taking time, concentration and tremendous energy to trigger. Which is why I question Baby Frieza using that power when born, due to how unstable and difficult it is for Frieza to utilise as an adult. His body expands unnaturally when using it, after all.
Power stressing is a catch-all term that refers to any sort of power up that puts stress on the user in order to increase their power, so technically Super Saiyan Grade 2 (which uses a ton of energy in comparison to Super Saiyan, or even Super Saiyan 2), Legendary Super Saiyan and the Kaio-ken are all power stressed forms despite increasing speed. I suppose even Super Saiyan before mastering it could be considered one if you want to be as inclusive as possible.
It's certainly possible nobody else can power up like that, Frost can because he's Frieza's equivalent, Daizenshuu 6 even says Cooler lacks that ability (it could also be this source) due to not having his brother's immense power. I mean, maybe, but that's a whole other can of worms. You could even argue that King Piccolo's full power is a power stressed mode, because using it decreases his life span.
Anyway, as you said, there isn't a lot of evidence here. Maybe we should just drop this point.
That guide only claims King Cold is 'slightly weaker' than Frieza. If he had Frieza's ability to grow stronger, than any training should have made him much stronger not just comparable. Frieza can grow hundreds of times stronger by simply training, easily. By claiming he trained, that would require for him to lack Frieza's mutated power growth, otherwise he should be significantly stronger than Frieza, not just comparable.
Also, we know Frieza never trained a day in his life. By claiming Adult Frieza > Baby Frieza, we have to assume that growing from an infant to an adult naturally increased Frieza's power. Which isn't wrong, persay, but it's shaky territory due to the lack of evidence of how physical development and Ki interacts.
I didn't really say he did. I was responding to you saying I said he lacked Frieza's potential. You just shot yourself in the foot with this point; he doesn't need Frieza's potential to become almost comparable to him.
I didn't really bring up this point. It helps my argument if anything, because King Cold could still be weaker than Baby Frieza and Adult Frieza at the same time.
Frieza's transformations don't increase his power, they lessen his power. The only augmented form that existed back then, was Cooler's 5th form which is not canon. If we are treating the Dragon Book as canon, then it can not be referring to Cooler. Therefore, King Cold's transformation would suppress his power. The act of 'transform' would only increase his power in the context of reaching his True Form.
Also, while I lack the Dragon Book and can't verify this...the Dragon Ball wiki claims that:
"t is stated in the Dragon Book that King Cold appears to be the type who increases his abilities by transforming. "
If this is true, then King Cold could only have a True Form beyond his suppression form, due to 5th form being non-canon and Golden not existing back then. In conclusion, the Dragon Book indicates that King Cold wasn't in his true form on Earth.
Yes, I know, and my argument is that King Cold's transformations could be lesser ones. Kuriza is also non-canon. I wasn't talking about Cooler, I was just mentioning that he had different forms despite Kuriza being similar.
You've made a lot of leaps of logic there. Also, the full line seems to imply that this is because he looks similar to Frieza's second form, and it says he appears to without any evidence or citations.
- "His appearance bears a close resemblance to Freeza's second form, and Cold also appears to be the type whose abilities increase by transforming."
Look at Cell asexually producing the Cell Juniors, their physical differences are minor. The namekians? Their differences are incredibly minor as well. King Cold and Frieza? Apparently their skin tones, armor, gems, colouration and sizes are completely and utterly different.
You could bring up Toriyama's design for Cooler, then, but that's also flawed. Cooler is much closer in appearance to Frieza, than he is King Cold. Why do Kuriza, Cooler, Frost and Frieza all look similar in their true forms (with Kuriza and Frieza near-identical) when King Cold is so starkly different?
It makes little sense.
I didn't say they don't, I brought up this statement if you remember. Why do they all have to look the same just because Frieza and his non-canon, gag manga son do? Frost is Frieza's Universe 6 equivalent, they're two sides of the same coin like Champa and Beerus, so he probably does resemble Frieza more than his father.
Edited Whis explains Universe 6 & Universe 7
Piccolo was only the same as King Piccolo because that was a clone with all his powers and abilities. Different Namekians also have different abilities depending on their creed.
As we see with Frieza and Frost, it takes considerable time to transform, which Trunks wouldn't afford King Cold. To add further, if King Cold is weaker than Frieza then King Cold would have little reason to believe he can defeat Trunks by himself. Hence why King Cold attempted to manipulate and trick him.
To add further, Cold believed Trunks' power came from his sword and obtained said sword. The time between his death and the realisation that the sword was useless was...quite little.
Maybe King Cold transformed in the future timeline with Goku allowing it, but Trunks would have had knowledge of this and prevented it with his lack of mercy.
Frost's transformation didn't take much time, it's also a very well known trope that characters in Dragon Ball stand around and wait for others to transform. King Cold is weaker than Frieza, let alone Mecha Frieza, and, as you mentioned, he believed the key to Trunks' power was his sword.
No, Cell's account (who's from a timeline where everything was the same before Trunks destroyed the Androids) shows that King Cold didn't transform. Although, it's just a copy-paste of drawings.
Cooler has been hinted as having three lesser forms, like Frieza, and his higher form has no relation to the nature of his base form.
I just watched Cooler's revenge, and I can't find anything of the sort. According to the wiki, Weekly Shonen Jump actually says he doesn't need any lower forms because he can control his full power. It also doesn't matter whether Cooler has these lower forms or not, because they're created.
I'm lost. Can you indicate why your source is relevant?
Because, unlike Cooler and Cold, Kuriza is directly meant to be similar to Frieza.
Well, apparently I'm still missing the point. That chain of argument is regarding whether or not King Cold's (suppressed) form is comparable to Frieza's true form. My claim was that nothing indicates Frieza meant King Cold's current form, or his non-100% form being capable of handling Namek Goku. And your linked scan doesn't seem to contest that.
King Cold doesn't have a suppressed form in canon, nor are we directly told or even lead to believe this when Dragon Ball Issue #330 came out in 1991.
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Yeah, sorry. I'm also tired out from debating and have a ton of IRL stuff to do in the coming weeks so I'll have to drop from the thread. I might debate you once I'm settled IRL but it's going to be weeks down the line, so I doubt it.
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Yeah, it's clear he had a huge increase from 2nd to 3rd form.
100% Frieza >> 50% Frieza = X20 Goku >> Base Goku >> Piccolo = 2nd Form Frieza >> 1st Form Frieza
Frieza's third form stomps Piccolo, despite Piccolo matching Frieza's second form and even Frieza's casual true form should be superior to his third form. If we were to take his power of 120,000,000 as linear and canon, he should be straight up 4-C. But assuming not, the gap between his 2nd and 3rd forms is clearly significant, and his true form is 40x Base Goku, who is stronger than Piccolo.
Overall, it's extremely unlikely for Frieza's true form to not be Low 4-C+. I would even say his 100% Power should be outright 4-C. I mean, it's basic logic. Frieza's second form is 3.4 Tenatons, being double the power of first form. If we ignore his third form, and claim 100% Frieza is 40x 2nd, that puts 100% at exactly 136 Tenatons, qualifying him for baseline 4-C.
I assume Frieza's power level statements (530,000 in first form, over 1,000,000 in second form) aren't accepted for making his second form twice the power of his first form? Even so, the gaps between 1st, 2nd and 3rd are all pretty huge and Base Goku shouldn't be far from 3rd Form Frieza in power, with Frieza's 100% being 40x that.
Overall, Frieza should be possibly 4-C, or even likely 4-C, in his true form.
- First Form = 1.7 Tenatons
- Second Form = 3.4 Tenatons
- Third Form = ???
- Fourth Form = 40x Third Form
100% Frieza >> 50% Frieza = X20 Goku >> Base Goku >> Piccolo = 2nd Form Frieza >> 1st Form Frieza
Frieza's third form stomps Piccolo, despite Piccolo matching Frieza's second form and even Frieza's casual true form should be superior to his third form. If we were to take his power of 120,000,000 as linear and canon, he should be straight up 4-C. But assuming not, the gap between his 2nd and 3rd forms is clearly significant, and his true form is 40x Base Goku, who is stronger than Piccolo.
Overall, it's extremely unlikely for Frieza's true form to not be Low 4-C+. I would even say his 100% Power should be outright 4-C. I mean, it's basic logic. Frieza's second form is 3.4 Tenatons, being double the power of first form. If we ignore his third form, and claim 100% Frieza is 40x 2nd, that puts 100% at exactly 136 Tenatons, qualifying him for baseline 4-C.
I assume Frieza's power level statements (530,000 in first form, over 1,000,000 in second form) aren't accepted for making his second form twice the power of his first form? Even so, the gaps between 1st, 2nd and 3rd are all pretty huge and Base Goku shouldn't be far from 3rd Form Frieza in power, with Frieza's 100% being 40x that.
Overall, Frieza should be possibly 4-C, or even likely 4-C, in his true form.
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That depends on how strong it was, here's a normal Kamehameha being fired at Cell, whose strength had been suppressed to rival Goku's at the time. It's likely Kaioken X20 Goku's would be stronger than himself, but he didn't have a whole lot of energy left to begin with and lost most of it by attacking. Frieza also makes it clear that the attack could've done more damage.
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That's kinda my point, if Freezer had been equal to Goku in Kaioken X20, he'd be dead and if he'd been as strong as the kamehameha (which if we go by the Radditz Fight is twice as strong as Goku himself), he'd also be be dead so saying he is equal to it is innacurate.ByAsura said:
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And here Goku is left panting, sound pretty full power to me.ByAsura said:
It was a pretty direct hit, what Freezer is implying is more that if Goku had been stronger, he could have actualy been wounded.
Like there is litteraly nothing saying Freezer is equal to it and everything point to Freezer being a good deal stronger than it, you can't say he is equal to an attack that just gave him scratches, if he'd lost his tail or something like after the Genkidama, it would be close enough but here saying they are equal is huge stretch.
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Context clearly imply that, it's not like the attack missed or anything, Freezer just blocked it with just one hand and his hand is barely scratched, which given Freezer's reaction is the most damage it's down, context behind the 'it was close' was clearly that if Goku had been strong, that might have been dangerous.ByAsura said:
We don't use the daizenshuu's power level last time i checked, otheriwse we wouldn't need to do calcs or estimate stuff for the SSJ transformation.
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No, what require mental gymnastics is pretending for a single second that Freezer was saying it could have killed him when he is barely scratched and is surprised a few seconds later to actualy feel pain from it, especialy when he later survive a much stronger attackByAsura said:
It can't be supporting evidence when powers level give us a totaly different power gap for each form.
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What are the conclusions here? You can ask the staff members listed in the Dragon Ball verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List for help if you wish.
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I am of the opinion that the scaling is:
100% Mecha Frieza > 100% Frieza > Mecha Frieza > Frieza > King Cold (whether he has a true form is irrelevant, his top power is behind Frieza).
If we claim Frieza is only 1.7 Tenatons, and his 100% Power is 40x that then he is 68 Tenatons. If we claim his power doubled from 2nd form and 3rd form, his 100% Power would be exactly 136 Tenatons (baseline 4-C).
King Cold is, regardless, weaker than Frieza. I personally think he is weaker than around 70% of Frieza, rather than 100%, but he would still fall short of 4-C if he were weaker than 100% Frieza.
If I were to go with headcanon, I think the scaling should be:
I think we can claim Frieza is 'likely 4-C' or 'likely higher' due to the gap between his 1st, 2nd and 3rd forms but King Cold should only get 'possibly 4-C' at most.
100% Mecha Frieza > 100% Frieza > Mecha Frieza > Frieza > King Cold (whether he has a true form is irrelevant, his top power is behind Frieza).
If we claim Frieza is only 1.7 Tenatons, and his 100% Power is 40x that then he is 68 Tenatons. If we claim his power doubled from 2nd form and 3rd form, his 100% Power would be exactly 136 Tenatons (baseline 4-C).
King Cold is, regardless, weaker than Frieza. I personally think he is weaker than around 70% of Frieza, rather than 100%, but he would still fall short of 4-C if he were weaker than 100% Frieza.
If I were to go with headcanon, I think the scaling should be:
- 1st = 1.7 Tenatons
- 2nd = 3.4 Tenatons
- 3rd = 6.8 Tenatons
- 100% 4th = 272 Tenatons
I think we can claim Frieza is 'likely 4-C' or 'likely higher' due to the gap between his 1st, 2nd and 3rd forms but King Cold should only get 'possibly 4-C' at most.
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Bump. I've found some stuff from some guides.
According to the first one "With his body changed to a machine, his strength has considerably increased. However, he still didn't manage to surpass the level of the Super Saiyajin and was done in by Trunks."
According to the second one "[Trunks] finished king Cold without this latter having even the time to attack. His strength was comparable to that of Goku's."
The two statements can be interpreted in many ways and seem to contradict both themselves and the manga, but I think it's worth mentioning.
According to the first one "With his body changed to a machine, his strength has considerably increased. However, he still didn't manage to surpass the level of the Super Saiyajin and was done in by Trunks."
According to the second one "[Trunks] finished king Cold without this latter having even the time to attack. His strength was comparable to that of Goku's."
The two statements can be interpreted in many ways and seem to contradict both themselves and the manga, but I think it's worth mentioning.
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Okay...so it seems Trunks ~ Namek Goku > Mecha Frieza > 100% Frieza. At least, that's what I take from those two statements. I don't think it gives us any information about King Cold, other than he's less than Trunks and Namek Goku.
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It doesn't say Namek Goku (it's worth mentioning that Trunks explicitly wasn't using his full power against Goku). It's possible, but if Trunks is much stronger than Frieza, he'd be superior to Namek Saga Goku.
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So, it's comparing Trunks to the Trunks Saga (Yardrat Goku) and basically saying he's on par with him?
Yardrat Goku > Future Trunks >> Mecha Frieza ~ King Cold >> 100% Power Frieza ~ Namek Goku
would become
Yardrat Goku ~ Future Trunks >> Mecha Frieza ~ King Cold >> 100% Power Frieza ~ Namek Goku
Actually, that makes a lot more sense. When I first read it I was thinking about the last appearance of Goku in the series, as opposed to the Trunks Saga (Yardrat Goku). I could see a guidebook making a comparison between the two to give us an idea of how strong they are relative to each other.
Yardrat Goku > Future Trunks >> Mecha Frieza ~ King Cold >> 100% Power Frieza ~ Namek Goku
would become
Yardrat Goku ~ Future Trunks >> Mecha Frieza ~ King Cold >> 100% Power Frieza ~ Namek Goku
Actually, that makes a lot more sense. When I first read it I was thinking about the last appearance of Goku in the series, as opposed to the Trunks Saga (Yardrat Goku). I could see a guidebook making a comparison between the two to give us an idea of how strong they are relative to each other.
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You should probably ask some staff members listed in the Dragon Ball verse page to give input here.
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I still think it's best to consider Trunks to be far more powerful than Namek saga Frieza. He literally does blitz him. And King Cold who really shouldn't be too much weaker was easily one-shotted by a casual Ki blast.
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I agree with that chain. I got the other one from Cryo's post earlier where he said that was the chain we currently use. This seems to agree with the in-universe statements of Tien and Gohan as well. Tien says there's a larger power with Frieza while Gohan says Frieza can become much stronger.
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? I didn't say he didn't. I was referring to the placement of King Cold in relation to 100% Frieza. Cryo's scaling has King Cold >> 100% Frieza...and there's no evidence of that. I'd like to think if King Cold was stronger than 100% Frieza, then Gohan would've said something about it. 100% Frieza > King Cold seems more accurate.
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I assumed he powered up to whatever his max in Mecha Frieza form was when he saw Trunks transform. I don't know if his patchwork body would allow him to buff up to something like a 100% form without breaking something, but his muscles didn't start bulging until after he got over 70% previously, so he could've powered up considerably without any noticeable change. Either way, regardless of whether Frieza powered up against Trunks or not, Frieza states he is stronger than he was and Goku states Trunks was holding back when they fought...neither of these statements would invalidate your scaling. I also wouldn't put it past Toriyama to have forgotten that Frieza's muscles bulge out when he's over 70%.
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Neglect that, I don't know where I got that scaling from and it's from a long chain of posts that are large. King Cold's profile just states he is 'comparable' to Frieza, but doesn't specify which Frieza he would be comparable to.
Based on everything argued in the thread, King Cold is, at best, slightly weaker than 100% Frieza and, at worst, weaker than 70% Frieza. I personally still feel that King Cold should have a true form, and that scaling would be relative to his true form but that doesn't really have much relevance. Future Trunks is capable of defeating 100% Frieza, so he would likely easily kill King Cold regardless of him having a true form.
Based on everything argued in the thread, King Cold is, at best, slightly weaker than 100% Frieza and, at worst, weaker than 70% Frieza. I personally still feel that King Cold should have a true form, and that scaling would be relative to his true form but that doesn't really have much relevance. Future Trunks is capable of defeating 100% Frieza, so he would likely easily kill King Cold regardless of him having a true form.
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Bump
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