Small DB manga upgrade

[Omegabronic]

The scenes are clearly 1:1, the abysmal arguments from opposition are beyond laughable. "Muh debris are flown slightly tilted to the right side" etc..yall are grasping at straws that Don't even exist

When have i said this? Stop putting words in my mouth please?

Also, Omega, stop stonewalling for the 345 billion time, it's annoying af. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing and not to prove a point. Yapping just for the love of the game is crazy.I'm soo ******* lost at omega's arguments that I genuinely think someone else is telling him what to say [someone dumb]...because what?

... you either chill with the tone and accusations or this conversation can't continue

Also... me poiting out the flaws in the argument, including the supposedly FTL Kinetic Energy calc i was informed this is, which is against the rules, is stonewalling how? People use that way too much as a buzz word i swear

 

[TheGreatBanana]

[When have i said this? Stop putting words in my mouth please?]

When have I said that you said it? Learn to read

[... you either chill with the tone and accusations or this conversation can't continue]

It's not accusations if it's exactly what are you doing. Stop stonewalling.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

When have i said this? Stop putting words in my mouth please?


... you either chill with the tone and accusations or this conversation can't continue

Also... me poiting out the flaws in the argument, including the supposedly FTL Kinetic Energy calc i was informed this is, which is against the rules, is stonewalling how? People use that way too much as a buzz word i swear

I corrected myself when I said FTL. It wasn't, it's rela/MHS. But I've already pointed out why it's a moot point to be clinging to realistic physics to the absolute T to begin with, and if we are, then the debris and light would be far faster than the sound anyway.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Good old DB salt and autism. God I love this community

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Good old DB salt and autism. God I love this community

I feel like I've laid everything out so I'll let the mods decide. If I keep going in circles explaining shit they will have to sift through multiple pages of all this.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This actually ends up making the Namek PLs consistent with Frieza's Planet Vegeta nuke, real neat.

 

[Omegabronic]

You been displaying this sort of behavior for years now and have a long history of clogging up and fighting hard against exclusively upgrade threads. I don't need a crystal ball, I quite literally just need pattern recognition of you being as unchariatable as possible, hell this comment is proof.

Again, accusations just to paint me in a bad picture and thus disregard my arguments... is not an argument

Plus i could literally say the same thing to you and downgrade threads... but i won't, cuz that ain't an argument, now kindly stop... please?

I didn't dismiss your argument about the sound effect for example, thats you being uncharitable.

You did about the onomatopeia being a visual indicator of when something happens... you also dismissed my debri point of them still being in sphere shape when they, supposedly, already flew down from the blast

I said it didn't change the arguement. It's cinematic paneling.

... when have i said you did? Again, don't say i said stuff i never did

The panel of the explosion is basically the instance the blast occurs.

so you are saying the explosion occurs when the panel showing it happens... yet you argue that the debris were shown before it? Aka, before the explosion happened? Am i confusing things?

I've already told you that the debris, (which I corrected myself and said it was rel/MHS) and the light would be faster than the sound anyway.

good on the correction about the speed

but my point was not on sound specifically, but the fact that onomatopeia is a visual indicator to show when something happened... which would make sense if the explosion already happened

Realistically, sound would take ages and the blast would be silent until it reaches the atmosphere, yet there the sound effect is, so clinging to this sound effect as an accurate indicator to begin with is unreliable. It's there for emphasis and style.

Again, the point was never sololy the sound aspect, that is but a detail

'Not true' yes it is. Half you last post was about author intent.

no it wasn't? 50% was talking about the scene itself, 40% about your baseless accusations to me, and 10% were about you assuming author intent as i purely showed an arternative

That is hardly "half of my arguments" dude, also i don't see how this point matters for the thread

'Prove the intent' you've created an unachievable hoop to jump through, which is why I said you were being obtuse.

i... don't know what that means at all

Toriyama didn't show up and directly say what his intent was, but it's pretty clear to say based off how he panels the his intent was building up to the blast panel by having the characters react to it before it was shown.

Or the build up was to show what was about to happen with the dramatic light of the Kamehameha covering everything... equally possible with what we know and see in the panels, so to act as if your's is the factual most likely one requires proof of intent, as we don't know for certain that was the intent of the scene and we have 2 equally plausable explanations

If that's not the intent, what is, and why?

I gave you an alternative and explained why, idk why you are acting as if i didn't already

You said they are reacting to light, but we see the light effects, and they are different then the effects seen in the panels with people reacting.

Scans please? I also don't see how me arguing that the Kamehameha's light is covering everything in those scenes affects my arguments for the debri positioning

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Got word mods have been notified so I'll dip.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

I feel like I've laid everything out so I'll let the mods decide. If I keep going in circles explaining shit they will have to sift through multiple pages of all this.

Get ready for 10 pages.

Oh for the record agree FRA. Also, dumb question, shouldn't the result be higher than the moon GPE? Seems Roshi V. Fragged it, pulv in the anime since he straight up deleted it

 

[Omegabronic]

[When have i said this? Stop putting words in my mouth please?]

When have I said that you said it? Learn to read

I believe that if i didn't knew how to read... i would be able to participate as i am doing. Don't you think?

[... you either chill with the tone and accusations or this conversation can't continue]

It's not accusations if it's exactly what are you doing. Stop stonewalling.

Your theory about me are derail to the thread, me giving valid points of concern is NOT stonewalling at all... so again, stop, chill out

 

[Omegabronic]

I feel like I've laid everything out so I'll let the mods decide. If I keep going in circles explaining shit they will have to sift through multiple pages of all this.

Agreed

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Honestly, this biggest anti-feat for this is Goku got hurt by a rock thrown by Krillin. LMAO.
Wait a minute did that downgrade ever go through? The one where the OP made the arge that Goku shouldn't be classs T because his hand got hurt by an elephant or something like that.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Get ready for 10 pages.

Oh for the record agree FRA. Also, dumb question, shouldn't the result be higher than the moon GPE? Seems Roshi V. Fragged it, pulv in the anime since he straight up deleted it

I don't know, that's a question for a calc guy. The upgrade is as simple and solid as it gets and the countearguments are blatantly nothing burgers, so I was just here to lay that out.

Despite a shit ton of statements about Dragon Ball being the anime and manga, two hearts beating at one yadda yadda, its a chore to cross scale just about anything, as this thread has shown, so despite the scenes being 1 to 1 we can't use anything from the anime as supporting arguements.

(I deadass think they had roshi delete the moon so they didn't have to animate it )

 

[Da3ggman]

if you wanna argue with intention then we should downgrade the toei feat to 29.6 exatons since it carries over the same intent as the original which is the destruction of the moon and nothing else whatsoever, minor changes in feats can change the results drastically, I personally don't believe that should be used to ignore all else in the name of upgrades

We literally see the debris flying away from the explosion in one panel and it is gone the next time we see it. What, do you think it all magically teleported away from the characters POV? Or that the Kamehameha erases them from existence after it destroyed the moon? The only logical explanation is that the moon blew up, and sent the chunks flying. That’s what we are likely supposed to see in the manga, and that’s what we actually see in the anime.

Your argument is literally “nah, I don’t think these lines look like motion lines enough”. Pure unsupported headcanon.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Your argument is literally “nah, I don’t think these lines look like motion lines enough”. Pure unsupported headcanon.

Honestly, 10/10 argument. Can't even disagree

 

[TiltedFN]

I'm not sure why this is getting derailed so hard, but the arguments against this are weak. Nitpicks, misinterpreting scans, trying to find a hole in the logic when there is none. First off:

The anime is still the same as the manga lmao. First it shows off the reactions of said characters, and we literally see them reacting to the explosion, just like on panel, and then it simply shows us the moon exploding. The calc doesn't even go off the interpretation of the debris flying to earth even though it absolutely could be, which makes this calc more conservative if anything, because this calc was accepted already with the debris distance just using the moon's radius as a lowball. We see the debris scattering, and it went totally off screen, then we see the that the moon is just gone, disappeared. It should not be this contentious when we're just applying the calc to a 1:1 showing. You're arguing about something you don't need to actually argue about.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

You're arguing about something you don't need to actually argue about.

This is DB. The most pedantic, semantic argument must take place.

 

[Nierre]

Very cringe debunks to the OP, this is an easy agreement for now.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

BUT GUYS THE KAMEHAMAWHATEVERHA IS BLUE IN THE ANIME AND IN THE MANGA ITS YELLOW.
IT ISN'T 1:1.
Someone will actually make this argument.

 

[StarShooter80]

BUT GUYS THE KAMEHAMAWHATEVERHA IS BLUE IN THE ANIME AND IN THE MANGA ITS YELLOW.
IT ISN'T 1:1.
Someone will actually make this argument.

If it was brown we would get 2-A Roshi

 

[Huesito88]

If it was brown we would get 2-A Roshi

We got Mouth Kamehameha and Feet Kamehameha, soooo why not?

 

[StarShooter80]

We got Mouth Kamehameha and Feet Kamehameha, soooo why not?

5-B feet blasts

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks straight forward.

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah, i agree, this is pretty simple

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I have no clue what the opposition is trying to reach for with their arguments. This all looks sensible to me so I agree.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree

 

[Hayato5652]

It's very easy, I agree.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Agreed with OP

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

Gonna throw in my vote as well, I see no problem applying the calc considering all it uses that's unique to the anime is the timeframe, and we already use the anime timeframes for the speed scaling. Unless people have contentions with the calc itself then this is just a case of consistently applying the same standards.

 

[StarShooter80]

I assume that after this calc gets accepted that we can just put it straight away in the AP scaling chain blog right? There would be no need for a new CRT with already accepted multipliers and an already accepted calc

 

[Saqphire]

I agree with this CRT, seems simple and straightforward. However, can't you just reverse ang size the moon's size in the manga and apply a vaporisation value to it's volume, eliminating the need to use the anime interpretation of the feat?

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

I agree with this CRT, seems simple and straightforward. However, can't you just reverse ang size the moon's size in the manga and apply a vaporisation value to it's volume, eliminating the need to use the anime interpretation of the feat?

the moon is very clearly not being vaporized

 

[Saqphire]

the moon is very clearly not being vaporized

Whatever value yall would decide on, my point is you should be able to calc it from manga panels thanks to reverse ang sizing

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Bump

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Even if the TV anime does accurately adapt the original scene in an animated format, why does that even important? Why is the TV anime even being considered in the first place, given how separate the original manga and its anime adaptation is? Is the TV anime a secondary canon, expanding upon the worldview of the original manga in ways which Toriyama could not when first creating Dragon Ball? Was Toriyama involved in the animation production of the scene? Did he supervise the storyboards or personally insure the key artists, and the animators and animation directors, the editors, etc. faithfully replicated what he depicted when he first illustrated the manga?

If not, then why is the fact that the depiction of the moon's destruction across the original manga and TV anime are, from your perspective, virtually identical even relevant? Not a single site rule suggests an external adaptation being similar enough to its source material is nearly enough to warrant using the former to further inform about the latter; and the precedent set by previous threads with similar concepts, like "Chainsaw Man: Anime Canonicity", "TYBW Anime is Canon", and even "To be canon or not to be that is the question.A Dragon ball Super revision", is that to be accepted as a secondary canon, the work in question has to: (1) be explicitly stated to be faithful to its source material, (2) directly involve the original creator or their input, (3) be explicitly described as a secondary alternative to the source material, either expanding upon or reinventing the source material in ways approved or even supervised by the original creator.

The TV anime's depiction of the moon's destruction is simply Toei Animation's interpretation of Toriyama's original manga. Why should Toei Animation's interpretation be considered when discussing, analyzing, and indexing Toriyama's original manga? The Genocide of the Saiyans looked pretty similar across all of its various adaptations and depictions, but we have still only accepted the depictions present in Super and Super: Broly in indexing the original manga's Frieza because they were the only depictions canonical to said profile. Can we also start looking to games like Xenoverse or the Budokai series for different perspectives on different feats, given they look similar enough, then?

 

[AwkguyDB]

In other news can this be added and closed please

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The thread was only created twenty-six hours ago.

 

[Huesito88]

The thread was only created twenty-six hours ago.

What took you so long to comment Null?

 

[Robo432343]

I don’t think so, anime adaptations should be used as a reference to gauge information that the still medium of manga cannot provide, which is fine for timeframe of attacks, but it should not be used to upgrade the entire feat using content and scaling that’s absent in the source material to max wank the verse into kingdom come

We have a reason for separating manga and anime profiles so it would defeat the point to award the manga for high scaling of the anime, The linked blog calculates the Kinetic Energy produced from the moon’s mass moving at MHS+ speeds denoted by the flying fragments, something not in the manga at all therefore it should not be upgraded. I disagree

 

[Nullflowerblush]

What took you so long to comment Null?

I got bored an hour ago.

When the thread was first created, I was thinking about interjecting with supplementary excerpts suggesting that, in the main canon, the moon was blasted apart (吹っ飛ばす futtobasu, "to blow up" or "to blast off"), regardless of whether the TV anime's depiction was valid for interpretation and seeing where that takes the discussion, but then I suddenly did not feel like it.

The entire thesis of the thread is "If you watch the scene in the anime, its literally 1:1 with the manga's version of the moon bust, which means there should be no problem with having the anime calc apply to the manga", and I only just now figured out what I actually wanted to say on the matter.

Besides, it's the only currently ongoing CRT for Dragon Ball, and I haven't participated in one in awhile.