Skepticism regarding Bayonetta's current ratings

[ShivaShakti]

So after seeking the justifications for each of the ratings currently listed on our Bayonetta Profiles, I found only one scan currently listed, which evidently most of the verse currently scales to. It was what granted them 2-C.

I am referring to this.

Able to create universes casually with the right eye, that existed simultaneously inside of her sphere, a re-creation of the universe previous to the First Armageddon, and planned to override the Trinity of Realities with it.

Of course the text seems quite explicit, but when you click the link itself, it is nothing more than some casual statements from the mouth of Kamiya. Perhaps you can see why I am quite skeptical of this justification. Historically, Kamiya has not been seen as a very viable source of information regarding power scaling. There was an ephemeral time when DMC also relied solely on Kamiya quotes for it's 3-A rating previously in 2017. And later, the use of this quote was stricken.

But perhaps there is something more? Something suitable?

Far more powerful than before. At her full strength she has the power to reunite the Trinity of Realities, along with a parallel universe that has its own time axis into a single universe where Paradiso reigns supreme.

Another Kamiya statement of course. He does reference a guidebook, which I am interested in seeing myself if one can find it. But... I am not sure of this use of "parallel time axis'" to justify a 2-C rating. It seems to be built off a divergent multiverse model, where the disruption of the past creates a split timeline, one notable example of this being the Cell saga in Dragon Ball Z. I'm uncertain if this in of itself would constitute a rating. And I still need a statement for her "reuniting a trinity of realities". However should this feat be legitimate, it should be noted that in this context, this feat would scale to The Eyes of The World. This is important for later.

And now we arrive at Loptr, also known as Aesir. With the eyes of the world, I do recall there being explicit statements for him which would warrant at the very least a 3-A rating. Perhaps even 2-C. But this state was also in the context to him possessing both Eyes. Now surely if this was legitimate, it would scale to Bayonetta, yes?... I don't believe so.

Here you see Aesir able to overpower Bayonetta, with just the right eye. He then proceeds to strip Bayonetta of the Left Eye, becoming far more powerful. Baldr and Bayonetta team up and theres a round two. The gameplay itself might suggest Bayonetta is capable of fighting back, but i'm unsure if this is simply PIS, given just moments before she was being beaten by a weaker Aesir. Even then, they only manage a killing blow once Loki erases the eyes. Bayonetta herself scaling I have cast doubt on, but I am willing to hear alternatives.

Currently, I believe at the very least, Aesir deserves a 3-A rating. I will allow further discussion to decide what to do with the rest of the cast.

 

[Comicgyal]

So after seeking the justifications for each of the ratings currently listed on our Bayonetta Profiles, I found only one scan currently listed, which evidently most of the verse currently scales to. It was what granted them 2-C.

I am referring to this.



Of course the text seems quite explicit, but when you click the link itself, it is nothing more than some casual statements from the mouth of Kamiya. Perhaps you can see why I am quite skeptical of this justification. Historically, Kamiya has not been seen as a very viable source of information regarding power scaling. There was an ephemeral time when DMC also relied solely on Kamiya quotes for it's 3-A rating previously in 2017. And later, the use of this quote was stricken.

As far as I know, a lot of Kamiyas statements regarding DMC were never made in such a legitimate video like the ones referenced. I’ve seen Twitter statements, but these ones are from a documentary where all his statements were backed up by his colleagues. So the legitimacy of his statements won’t be taken into question.

Another Kamiya statement of course. He does reference a guidebook, which I am interested in seeing myself if one can find it. But... I am not sure of this use of "parallel time axis'" to justify a 2-C rating. It seems to be built off a divergent multiverse model, where the disruption of the past creates a split timeline, one notable example of this being the Cell saga in Dragon Ball Z. I'm uncertain if this in of itself would constitute a rating. And I still need a statement for her "reuniting a trinity of realities". However should this feat be legitimate, it should be noted that in this context, this feat would scale to The Eyes of The World. This is important for later.

The feat justifies for 2-C because when she United the trinity, it will include that other alternate timeline. That is because the eyes of the world are sensitive across timelines, and will merge all alternate ones. Her reuniting the trinity of realities is the entire basis of the first game, and the reason why she resurrected in the first place.

And now we arrive at Loptr, also known as Aesir. With the eyes of the world, I do recall there being explicit statements for him which would warrant at the very least a 3-A rating. Perhaps even 2-C. But this state was also in the context to him possessing both Eyes. Now surely if this was legitimate, it would scale to Bayonetta, yes?... I don't believe so.

Here you see Aesir able to overpower Bayonetta, with just the right eye. He then proceeds to strip Bayonetta of the Left Eye, becoming far more powerful. Baldr and Bayonetta team up and theres a round two. The gameplay itself might suggest Bayonetta is capable of fighting back, but i'm unsure if this is simply PIS, given just moments before she was being beaten by a weaker Aesir. Even then, they only manage a killing blow once Loki erases the eyes. Bayonetta herself scaling I have cast doubt on, but I am willing to hear alternatives.

Currently, I believe at the very least, Aesir deserves a 3-A rating. I will allow further discussion to decide what to do with the rest of the cast.

This point doesn’t matter, since her tier isn’t from scaling to aesir. Also I don’t understand why you think aesir needs a 3-A rating? Nothing you mentioned explains why he would need to be downgraded.

I also suggest looking over all of my Bayonetta upgrade posts, and reading the justifications.

 

[ShivaShakti]

As far as I know, a lot of Kamiyas statements regarding DMC were never made in such a legitimate video like the ones referenced. I’ve seen Twitter statements, but these ones are from a documentary where all his statements were backed up by his colleagues. So the legitimacy of his statements won’t be taken into question.

The point is that we don't typically treat his words as valid due to his attitude when it comes to powerscaling.

The feat justifies for 2-C because when she United the trinity, it will include that other alternate timeline. That is because the eyes of the world are sensitive across timelines, and will merge all alternate ones. Her reuniting the trinity of realities is the entire basis of the first game, and the reason why she resurrected in the first place.

Where is this even stated?

This point doesn’t matter, since her tier isn’t from scaling to aesir. Also I don’t understand why you think aesir needs a 3-A rating? Nothing you mentioned explains why he would need to be downgraded.

I'm addressing scaling to Aesir because should all the other statements be thrown out, it would be the only leg left to stand on for Bayonetta scaling to 3-A or 2-C at all. I'm saying that he at the very least deserves a 3-A rating in contrast to the rest of the cast such as Bayonetta, who I doubt have any such scaling. 3-A to 2-C is fine for Aesir.

I also suggest looking over all of my Bayonetta upgrade posts, and reading the justifications.

And I suggest you defend your ratings here and now, or make a blog post.

 

[Comicgyal]

The point is that we don't typically treat his words as valid due to his attitude when it comes to powerscaling.

His validity in that documentary was already considered valid, so that’s a nonfactor.

Where is this even stated?

Balder uses his power to mess with young Cereza>Cereza goes back to her past>She awakens her eye>Bayonetta in her present timeline does too=EOTW are sensitive across timelines, and whatever is done with one, happens with all others. Explained in the same link in jubileus page.

And I suggest you defend your ratings here and now, or make a blog post.

i am currently lol, but you need to do research as well, because it’s clear you haven’t,

 

[Comicgyal]

But anyways read this, this, and this so you get a good understanding of the decisions made and the reasonings behind them.

 

[ShivaShakti]

His validity in that documentary was already considered valid, so that’s a nonfactor.

I'm still going to cast serious doubt on the statements given the casual factor of them, and the fact he doesn't even elaborate further in the universe scan.

Balder uses his power to mess with young Cereza>Cereza goes back to her past>She awakens her eye>Bayonetta in her present timeline does too=EOTW are sensitive across timelines, and whatever is done with one, happens with all others. Explained in the same link in jubileus page.

I still don't see how this implies the merging of alternate timelines.

i am currently lol, but you need to do research as well, because it’s clear you haven’t,

Going off what's on the profiles is no fault of my own, considering the fact the the "evidence" the profiles themselves use is quite limited, and barely links to anything, and there is not a blog post with further elaboration and scans in sight. The burden of proof is for you to address, not me.

 

[FanSyst]

Following

 

[Comicgyal]

Going off what's on the profiles is no fault of my own, considering the fact the the "evidence" the profiles themselves use is quite limited, and barely links to anything, and there is not a blog post with further elaboration and scans in sight. The burden of proof is for you to address, not me.

But anyways read this, this, and this so you get a good understanding of the decisions made and the reasonings behind them.

The burden of “proof” isn’t on me, by the way. You have to debunk my evidence that has already been proven, and accepted. I don’t have to “prove” again, something I’ve proven before.

I still don't see how this implies the merging of alternate timelines.

Because the universe young Cereza was sent to, was an alternate universe. Which affected the main universe because of the usage of the eyes.

 

[ShivaShakti]

The burden of “proof” isn’t on me, by the way. You have to debunk my evidence that has already been proven, and accepted. I don’t have to “prove” again, something I’ve proven before.

And the evidence in the profile is questionable and limited. It does not contain all of your points. It is your duty, and your's alone, to present the supporting evidence. The fact that there bits and pieces left out of them is on you. But alas, aside from the point.

Because the universe young Cereza was sent to, was an alternate universe. Which affected the main universe because of the usage of the eyes.

Okay. So the eyes activating in multiple points of time occurs. Now where is it stated that alternate timelines themselves are being merged in any form?

I shall address those threads you've linked when I wake.

 

[Comicgyal]

And the evidence in the profile is questionable and limited. It does not contain all of your points. It is your duty, and your's alone, to present the supporting evidence. The fact that there bits and pieces left out of them is on you. But alas, aside from the point.




Okay. So the eyes activating in multiple points of time occurs. Now where is it stated that alternate timelines themselves are being merged in any form?

I shall address those threads you've linked when I wake.

There are no pieces left out of the profiles lol, all the evidence is there. Just say you don’t understand.

It’s based on logic. Since the activation of her eyes is what awakened bayonettas eye, when jubileus merges their universe it will also merge the alternate timeline due to it using the eyes of the world.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Just read the sodding threads linked...

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

And the evidence in the profile is questionable and limited. It does not contain all of your points. It is your duty, and your's alone, to present the supporting evidence. The fact that there bits and pieces left out of them is on you. But alas, aside from the point.

Having insufficient and dubious evidence is subjective, considering the fact that:

A. This is not some random tweet from a fan, it’s a documentary of the game and is lore firsthand.
B. Ultimately, casting doubt puts it on you to prove his word is untrustworthy in this case, especially since a majority of the tweets that garner skepticism are from DMC, not Bayonetta.

Burden of proof was fulfilled, whether you think that’s enough is what this thread is for.

 

[LordGinSama]

I agree 100% with Comic. Her profile is valid as it is.

 

[Hellbeast]

Well I think this should be interesting

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Comicgyal

 

[Abstractions]

But anyways read this, this, and this so you get a good understanding of the decisions made and the reasonings behind them.

I'd recommend at least highlighting key posts of interest when linking threads, it would save them having to look through all clutter to find the actual important arguments.

Yes, I know it would be beneficial for people to read the threads in their entirety, but the person you are trying to convince (or equally as important, the people reading the interactions/potential voters) might not have the patience for that. So while this isn't me saying you are in the wrong for just linking the threads as they are, it is a good word of advice anyone should keep in mind.

 

[Comicgyal]

I'd recommend at least highlighting key posts of interest when linking threads, it would save them having to look through all clutter to find the actual important arguments.

Yes, I know it would be beneficial for people to read the threads in their entirety, but the person you are trying to convince (or equally as important, the people reading the interactions/potential voters) might not have the patience for that. So while this isn't me saying you are in the wrong for just linking the threads as they are, it is a good word of advice anyone should keep in mind.

I was linking them posts and blog not for the comments, but for the actual justifications in them, since OP doesn’t think the pages have enough information. But it’s also a bit difficult to address their claims, and provide Information since it’s based on skepticism— and not actual counter arguments for my revisions.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

but the person you are trying to convince (or equally as important, the people reading the interactions/potential voters) might not have the patience for that.

A complete non-factor. If you have the gall to make a downgrade thread, yet lack the virtue to review all of the evidence, then refrain from commenting on the series all together.

Whether they have the patience or not is not Comic’s concern. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, aka Hitchen’s Razor.

 

[Abstractions]

A complete non-factor. If you have the gall to make a downgrade thread, yet lack the virtue to review all of the evidence, then refrain from commenting on the series all together.

It's a polite recommendation, not a demand. You don't need to respond to me as if it was such, nor reference things to me that I already know. There's no need to be defensive on Comic's behalf. Thank you.

I was linking them posts and blog not for the comments, but for the actual justifications in them, since OP doesn’t think the pages have enough information.

I am aware of what you did, and made a small recommendation as to how you could do more. That's all.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It's a polite recommendation, not a demand. You don't need to respond to me as if it was such, nor reference things to me that I already know. There's no need to be defensive on Comic's behalf. Thank you.

I’m not defensive on her behalf, instead, I’m direct. While it is a recommendation, I reject that notion, that’s simply all.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I can see the logic behind the feats, but why they scale to physicals ?

Merging Universes is a common feat in DMC and other verses, but only those with Universal Energy System can scale that output to their body's strength, as that means having the same source of power for everything

 

[Hellbeast]

Merging Universes is a common feat in DMC and other verses, but only those with Universal Energy System can scale that output to their body's strength, as that means having the same source of power for everything

I feel the issue is we need Universal Energy System guidelines to get a dedicated page; we're seeing this come up a lot and I was writing up some possible criteria (if you're curious feel free to contact me here or on Discord)

 

[Comicgyal]

I can see the logic behind the feats, but why they scale to physicals ?

Merging Universes is a common feat in DMC and other verses, but only those with Universal Energy System can scale that output to their body's strength, as that means having the same source of power for everything

Because it scales to their durability, and characters physically hurt one another meaning their physicals are the same way.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I feel the issue is we need Universal Energy System guidelines to get a dedicated page; we're seeing this come up a lot (I had some suggestions for criteria if you're curious)

Oh I agree with that

Because it scales to their durability, and characters physically hurt one another meaning their physicals are the same way.

Bayonetta's Universe creation scales to her Durability ?

 

[Hellbeast]

Oh I agree with that

Like, as someone who's debated verses scaling to hax, the only one I've gathered we have in place is "Can amp themselves" which is incredibly loose and open to interpretation (It's like saying "lmao it's light" is all you need for light speed attacks). If you were curious feel free to ask and I can show you what I had)

 

[Comicgyal]

Oh I agree with that


Bayonetta's Universe creation scales to her Durability ?

I’ll give you an example from Jubileus’ profile.

Able to create universes casually with the right eye, that existed simultaneously inside of her sphere, a re-creation of the universe previous to the First Armageddon, and planned to override the Trinity of Realities with it.

Jubileus created a multiverse, and was going to override the current multiverse with hers. A god tier in the verse punched this multiverse into pieces. That’s how it scales to their physicals.

Also yes, when the trinity of realities is merged, jubileus will stand at the apex. Meaning she will survive said merging.

 

[Comicgyal]

Are there any rebuttals to anything I’ve addressed/mentioned? If not let’s close this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

@ShivaShakti

Do you have any counter-points?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It’s been about 15 days, I’m going to assume no.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should I close this thread then?

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so.