Shulk vs Arceus

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

he is 5th

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Isn't the Pokemon multiverse>>> Xenoblade.

I know both are "countless", but Pokemon has that infinite branching stuff, I think that would be larger than Xenoblade

Although, what stops him from nuking the mulitverse and killing Alvis

 

[Bware1]

Not really. Honestly Xenoblade's 2-B is comparable to Pokemon. Hell people have even argued it to be comparable to DBH https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4126634

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Xenoblade also has the infinite branching stuff so if that helps.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Thanks, so I think incon since both just think

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What even is incon about this? Shulk gets one shot and his Precog shouldn't work here given he's fighting the future that he's seeing. Doesn't help that Shulk lacks any sort of survivability.

 

[Schnee_One]

Shulk doesn't have immortality either, so he gets outlived even if Precog worked and Arceus could not hit him.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Is because an AE1 guy endlessly revives him, and Arceus can't kill that

 

[Everything12]

One word to both those points Alvis (Xenoblade Chronicles)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Arceus kills the AE1 guy then. Arceus can hit AE1s as ridiculous to think Arceus can't hit himself.

 

[Schnee_One]

Oh right, True Alvis

Does Shulk have infinte stamina?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Has Arceus show to be able to kill AE1 guys? The CT still isn't AE1

 

[Everything12]

Pretty sure that if Original Spirit can harm the Abstract Alvis without feats then Alvis passives the Original Spirit as it can in turn can then affect it without feats.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Arceus kills the AE1 guy then. Arceus can hit AE1s as ridiculous to think Arceus can't hit himself.

Same logic can be applied to Alvis then who can then passively hax Arceus.

@Schnee

Kinda? He naturally has Near infinite but then Alvis does have infinite stamina and Alvis is doing all the heavy lifting.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Arceus simply cant


"All Conceptual Manipulators are bound by the use of the power. A character who embodies a concept cannot create, manipulate, or destroy it unless otherwise show. A character who can create a concept cannot destroy it unless otherwise shown, and vice versa."

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alvis embodies the beginning and end of time...something Arceus has physically beaten within an inch of its life. Don't really see Alvis being more than a thorn in Arceus's side. Worst case scenario, Arceus shapes True Alvis into another Dialga.0

 

[StrymULTRA]

But Dialga isn't AE1 unlike Alvis

 

[Everything12]

It embodies the Type 2 Concept that has passives that Arceus doesn't resist.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I don't know what passives Alvis has.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If it wasn't clear Incon FRA

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

I don't know what passives Alvis has.

They're listed right at the top of the thread.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'd agree that Arceus couldn't affect Alvis if they embodied no correlated abstracts. But they embody the same thing, with Alvis on a lesser scale. Alvis embodies the beginning and end of time on an AE1 scale. Arceus embodies all of time on an AE1 scale, alongside all of space, antimatter, emotion, knowledge, and willpower. If Alvis was like, the embodiment of truth or whatever, it would be no problem justifying that Arceus couldn't hit Alvis. But Arceus quite literally is what Alvis is and more.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also Alvis's only passive that'd matter is fate manipulation. Everything else gets no sold either by the plates KE the nature of Arceus's existence.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The conceptual manip page literaly says that if you are a concept you can't affect it unless shown with feats, and Arceus never shown to be able to damage a concept similar to his

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

The conceptual manip page literaly says that if you are a concept you can't affect it unless shown with feats, and Arceus never shown to be able to damage a concept similar to his

The Creation Trio are comparable to the concept Alvis is

 

[Everything12]

You know there is a reason Arceus doesn't have Concept Manipulation Type 2 despite having Abstract Existence from a Type 2 Concept, but anyway Fate Manipulation is a pretty big power to have when Shulk & Alvis also have Resistance Negation that allows them to EE.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The concept isn't just similar, it is his. And because of that, there's no reason for Arceus to not be able to affect him, unless Arceus incapable of affecting himself. Furthermore his children, which are aspects of him, can hit Arceus, albeit it's futile.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The Creation Trio are comparable to the concept Alvis is

And they aren't AE1, they were AE3 before it was removed, DBH characters have unironically a wincon against even the CT TFs despite they don't have concept manip

 

[Everything12]

On the Conceptual Manipulation page is "All Conceptual Manipulators are bound by the use of the power. A character who embodies a concept cannot create, manipulate, or destroy it unless otherwise shown. A character who can create a concept cannot destroy it unless otherwise shown, and vice versa."

Plus the Creation Trio can hit a Avatar Arceus, they have never interacted with the Abstract Original Spirit.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I didn't say they have AE1, I said they can affect Arceus who is AE1, albeit barely.

 

[StrymULTRA]

>there's no reason for Arceus to not be able to affect him, unless Arceus incapable of affecting himself

And this is exactly the point, the concept manip page literally says so, you can be a concept, but unless you show feats, you can't destroy it, so Arceus isn't able to knowcking out itself

 

[Everything12]

Arceus isn't Abstract though, The Original Spirit is, when has the Creation Trio ever interacted with The Original Spirit?

 

[StrymULTRA]

>I didn't say they have AE1, I said they can affect Arceus who is AE1, albeit barely.

They never fought True Arceus, just Avatar Arceus in their Avatar form so no

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

The Creation Trio are comparable to the concept Alvis is

And they aren't AE1, they were AE3 before it was removed, DBH characters have unironically a wincon against even the CT TFs despite they don't have concept manip

That doesnt matter if the concept is the same, as he can still affect it

 

[Everything12]

Yeah but the Creation Trio only have Type 3 Concepts, world apart from Alvis' Type 2.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

>Alvis is Type 2

From the description, nothing implies Type 2, so it would be Type 3

 

[Bware1]

What even is incon about this? Shulk gets one shot and his Precog shouldn't work here given he's fighting the future that he's seeing. Doesn't help that Shulk lacks any sort of survivability.

Arceus doesn't one shot. Thier AP is comparable

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Alvis is neither Type 2 or 3 (3 doesn't even exist anymore)

Alvis also mostly embodies the Monado and plus if you're saying that Arceus can affect him via embodying the same concept then the reverse is also true which means Alvis can use all his passives and other hax on Arceus.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Alvis is neither Type 2 or 3 (3 doesn't even exist anymore)

Type 3 Concepts still exists, which is what we were referring to

 

[Everything12]

If Alvis isn't Type 3 then Arceus should be able to destroy the verse to get rid of it and him, as I was told that the Xenoblade verse is also Ad Infinitum x 2