Should We Make Profiles For The Divine Comedy?

[Ultima_Reality]

This is not a tiering-related thread, and the title is self-explanatory, really. As you can see:

The Divine Comedy

The Divine Comedy is an Italian narrative poem by Dante Alighieri, begun c. 1308 and completed around 1321, shortly before the author's death. It is widely considered the pre-eminent work in Italian literature and one of the greatest works of world literature. The poem's imaginative vision of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

We already kind of index the Divine Comedy on-site, even if poorly. That said, from what I can gather, this has pretty much gone under the radar for quite a while, so I figured that it would be good to bring attention to it so that we can come to a formal agreement. Especially given that, as I recall, people have expressed uncertainties on whether this is fine to do, in the past. So, I'd rather get this out of the way, lest I waste time making profiles that would just be rejected anyway.

That said, I did potentially waste time making one profile. God. And this one, I think, summarizes all the potential woes that people might have with indexing the Comedy. Since, as you can see, it's.... well, pretty damn close to actual Christian theology. But on the other hand: The Divine Comedy is just a fantasy novel, even if one that's exceptionally faithful to its inspirations. So, yeah.

Discuss.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Oh, yeah, a relevant data point: We index Journey To The West, another work of classical literature that's very faithful to its religious inspirations. That probably gives us further precedent to say this is fine.

 

[Gasper]

I personally think it should be fine. Christians don't take Divine Comedy as serious religious text.

Besides, Journey to the west has it's roots way earlier than 16th century.
There are cave paintings of earlier versions of the story that date back to 12th-13th century CE.

"The Story of How Tripitaka of the Great Tang Procures the Scriptures" is an earlier version of Journey to the west written in 13th century. It's proto-journey to the west story that evolved orally over centuries.

 

[Armorchompy]

Italian here, confirming that even in the country in which it was written (and where we study it in schools) nobody considers the Divine Comedy a religious text (save for like, ignorant people I suppose). Fine to index

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Regardless of how closely a religiously-inspired or even derived work conforms to or aligns with the original beliefs, so long as it is not considered canonical to most major branches and/or constituents of said religion, it should be acceptable to index. I know the Divine Comedy is often assigned in otherwise secular or non-affiliated schools, as a means to educate students of all beliefs in the subjects of literary analysis and Western history. Most Christians are fine with the work being used in such ways, and how we would handle it on the wiki (i.e. analyzing a work closely tied to a religion under a clinical lens) is not, fundamentally, very different.

 

[Yasuda_144]

Oh, yeah, a relevant data point: We index Journey To The West, another work of classical literature that's very faithful to its religious inspirations. That probably gives us further precedent to say this is fine.

I would say that indexing JTTW is actually kinda iffy itself. The reason being that most of what's justifying the rating is taken directly from actual religious philosophy with next to no embellishment or artistic license taken. It's about as close as you can get to tiering the real-world concepts as you can get without doing it outright.

But if it's already considered fine, I guess The Divine Comedy is fine for the same reasons (although I have no clue why someone would want to powerscale centuries old works of high art in the first place).

 

[Gasper]

I would say that indexing JTTW is actually kinda iffy itself. The reason being that most of what's justifying the rating is taken directly from actual religious philosophy with next to no embellishment or artistic license taken. It's about as close as you can get to tiering the real-world concepts as you can get without doing it outright.

But if it's already considered fine, I guess The Divine Comedy is fine for the same reasons (although I have no clue why someone would want to powerscale centuries old works of high art in the first place).

What are you on about? That's just not true at all.
Everything on Sun Wukong's profile is taken specifically from JTTW novel.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

(although I have no clue why someone would want to powerscale centuries old works of high art in the first place).

Bored.

 

[Yasuda_144]

What are you on about? That's just not true at all.
Everything on Sun Wukong's profile is taken specifically from JTTW novel.

What I mean is that the cosmology and metaphysics of the novel itself are extremely faithful to actual Buddhism, to the point that indexing them is only one step removed from indexing actual Buddhist theology.

 

[Gasper]

What I mean is that the cosmology and metaphysics of the novel itself are extremely faithful to actual Buddhism, to the point that indexing them is only one step removed from indexing actual Buddhist theology.

Yeah, so? World of Darkness (a board game) is also very faithful to Buddhism, Hinduism etc as are many fictional works of literature.

 

[Robo432343]

What I mean is that the cosmology and metaphysics of the novel itself are extremely faithful to actual Buddhism, to the point that indexing them is only one step removed from indexing actual Buddhist theology.

so should we remove the presence from DC vertigo comics

 

[Yasuda_144]

I'm not arguing that JTTW should definitely be removed or anything, I just consider it a kind of gray area in terms of the standards surrounding real religions.

The Presence is also not the best example since there's a lot about the character that isn't based on Christian theology in any way. He's very much a fictionalized version of the Biblical God as opposed to a fictional depiction that has accuracy as a central concern.

 

[Gasper]

so should we remove the presence from DC vertigo comics

Yeah that's not the best example.

 

[Yasuda_144]

Yeah, so? World of Darkness (a board game) is also very faithful to Buddhism, Hinduism etc as are many fictional works of literature.

I mean, I guess that makes sense. There's things that could be said about how the context in which the ideas are used differs from a story like Journey to the West, but ultimately there's a lot of fiction out there that translates the author's spiritual or metaphysical views onto the page in a fairly direct way. There's really no telling where you could draw the line and say that the contents are too similar to the source faiths to be considered separate from them.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

although I have no clue why someone would want to powerscale centuries old works of high art in the first place

Because some of us like seeing a monkey slap anime pretty boys.

 

[Armorchompy]

(although I have no clue why someone would want to powerscale centuries old works of high art in the first place).

it's funny

 

[Gasper]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

As a Nondenominational Christian myself, I personally do not mind this one bit.

 

[ThanatosX]

I am honestly in favor of profiles for the Divine Comedy. Given it's huge influence in literature and the fact that it is definitely not a religious text (as an italian I can confirm what Armorchompy said and that here it is considered an important piece of literature, but far from being a religious text in any form), there should be no problem with indexing it, like we do with other pieces of fiction that uses religion as their basis.

 

[Gasper]

Bump?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that this would invite too much potential controversy from visitors and more sensitive members, as it is too close to actual Christian theology.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I think that this would invite too much potential controversy from visitors and more sensitive members, as it is too close to actual Christian theology.

I don't really understand... unless the characters or stuff are from the bible or something I don't really see how there would be controversy unless I'm missing something? Not too knowledgeable on it tho

 

[Duedate8898]

It's fiction, in fact, it's a pretty big piece of literature. If we can index Chronicles of Narnia, we can index the divine comedy as both have immensely and overt ties to Christanity and that's understood by everyone. And it's not like the Divine Comedy is a religious text, it's fiction and understood to be fiction.

It should be good to go

 

[Qawsedf234]

That said, I did potentially waste time making one profile. God. And this one, I think, summarizes all the potential woes that people might have with indexing the Comedy. Since, as you can see, it's.... well, pretty damn close to actual Christian theology. But on the other hand: The Divine Comedy is just a fantasy novel, even if one that's exceptionally faithful to its inspirations. So, yeah.

Its a fictionalized version of a IRL religion, which we allow for other major stuff like Hinduism or Buddhism. I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed since its a basically just a dude's Bible fanfic.

That said, I did potentially waste time making one profile. God. And this one, I think, summarizes all the potential woes that people might have with indexing the Comedy. Since, as you can see, it's.... well, pretty damn close to actual Christian theology. But on the other hand: The Divine Comedy is just a fantasy novel, even if one that's exceptionally faithful to its inspirations. So, yeah.

Wouldn't it be easier to just have the God profile just have one key since the Divine Comedy uses the Trinity doctrine, where the three are the same-substance of a God-Head entity? Splitting them into three, while correct doctrine wise, seems weird profile wise since like, they'd all have the same abilities.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Wouldn't it be easier to just have the God profile just have one key since the Divine Comedy uses the Trinity doctrine, where the three are the same-substance of a God-Head entity? Splitting them into three, while correct doctrine wise, seems weird profile wise since like, they'd all have the same abilities.

They are one yee even tho they work separately... It's like separating ones soul to ones body, they are still 1 being

But I would very much disagree with allowing that sandbox to be made... It's using the names and information from the Bible itself. Something that heavily respected and defended, would seem very disrespectful to add something so close related to the bible like that to a "Battle Wiki" in my view

Did not know that was on the op before

 

[Gasper]

They are one yee even tho they work separately... It's like separating ones soul to ones body, they are still 1 being

But I would very much disagree with allowing that sandbox to be made... It's using the names and information from the Bible itself. Something that heavily respected and defended, would seem very disrespectful to add something so close related to the bible like that to a "Battle Wiki" in my view

Did not know that was on the op before

No it doesn't. I read divine comedy and Ultima is using everything specifically from the book.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

No it doesn't. I read divine comedy and Ultima is using everything specifically from the book.

Which the book got from the Bible... That doesn't matter

The sandbox is still using a near perfect replica of god from the Bible...

Christians give God more importance/value than their own family members, it's still very disrespectful and something that shouldn't be in a "Battle wiki"

The book as a whole is probably fine, it's not fine if your using a book that's taken of off the bible to then make a profile solely on that... There's no difference at that point

 

[Gasper]

Which the book got from the Bible... That doesn't matter

The sandbox is still using a near perfect replica of god from the Bible...

Christians give God more importance/value than their own family members, it's still very disrespectful and something that shouldn't be in a "Battle wiki"

The book as a whole is probably fine, it's not fine if your using a book that's taken of off the bible to then make a profile solely on that... There's no difference at that point

I'm sorry but no, it doesn't. Non of this applies to the bible. This is taken from theology which isn't synonymous with the Bible, period.

Also, what do you mean by "Which the book got from the Bible"?
Did you even read Divine Comedy? It literally is it's own thing lol.

There are multiple Christians in this thread who are fine with this so unless you're one too don't act offended on their behalf.

 

[Flashlight237]

This one is just ******* weird. Like, in pop culture, works involving biblical entities would lump the Divine Comedy in there as well (even if The Divine Comedy is basically just Dante bitching about his place of employment), the Divide Comedy itself only drawn loosely from it. As such, I'd scrutinize it just as much as I would scrutinize Greek mythology (which is, like, not at all given how most Hellenists I came across didn't really care if the Greek gods got stereotyped to hell and back).

Personally, I'd say do what you want with it, just make sure you detail the cosmology of the Divine Comedy before you try and do anything else with it. Although I think that begs the question as to how the Divine Comedy went since I don't think either the Bible or the Divine Comedy ever defined the scale of Hell itself. The Divine Comedy just sectioned off Hell into nine different sections (which Dungeons and Dragons decided to then take the idea and call them The Nine Hells) and left it at that iirc.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

There are multiple Christians in this thread who are fine with this so unless you're one too don't act offended on their behalf.

Calling themselves Christian or not doesn't matter to what I said

I am an Orthodox Christian but mainly am a serious follower of Christ, I'm not acting offended on their behalf... I'm talking behalf of the people who will get offended by that sort of stuff as they put importance to that more than anything.

Also, what do you mean by "Which the book got from the Bible"?
Did you even read Divine Comedy? It literally is it's own thing lol.

I did not read it, only some parts... But it's still got the information from the Bible and used it for it with barely any difference

Just because it's from another book doesn't mean it's not talking about the same one in the same way... Which it does in that sandbox

I'm sorry but no, it doesn't. Non of this applies to the bible. This is taken from theology which isn't synonymous with the Bible, period.

... The theology of Christianity which is the Bible

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the issue is that there are many Christians, and likely Muslims, who would find this offensive due to being too similar to their faith, so I do not think that we should risk the controversy. It is very unnecessary, and does not cause any gain for us.

 

[Gasper]

Calling themselves Christian or not doesn't matter to what I said

I am an Orthodox Christian but mainly am a serious follower of Christ, I'm not acting offended on their behalf... I'm talking behalf of the people who will get offended by that sort of stuff as they put importance to that more than anything.

I did not read it, only some parts... But it's still got the information from the Bible and used it for it with barely any difference

Just because it's from another book doesn't mean it's not talking about the same one in the same way... Which it does in that sandbox

... The theology of Christianity which is the Bible

People will get offended over an inspired work of fiction? Get real.

I seen most Christians insulting the work because some people take it as canon to Christianity.

No it's not.
Non of this applies to Bible. It's inspired by platonism. You're not going to tell me Christianity owns that shit.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

People will get offended over an inspired work of fiction? Get real.

I seen most Christians insulting the work because some people take it as canon to Christianity.

I've literally said the book is fine... The sandbox is not, especially in a "battle wiki" as it heavily relates to the God in the Bible.

 

[Gasper]

I've literally said the book is fine... The sandbox is not, especially in a "battle wiki".

Re-read what I said.
What are you even on about

 

[Antvasima]

More specifically, the problem would not be that we include pages for Dante or Beatrice within the story, but rather the following page, which is nearly identical to the Christian perception of God.

Ultima Reality/TheOne

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Re-read what I said.
What are you even on about

It's not the "inspired work of fiction" that they'll get offended about is what I'm talking about

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

As long as the sources are simply referencing everything from the poem and doesn't take anything from the Bible, it is fine to me.

Although I think that begs the question as to how the Divine Comedy went since I don't think either the Bible or the Divine Comedy ever defined the scale of Hell itself. The Divine Comedy just sectioned off Hell into nine different sections (which Dungeons and Dragons decided to then take the idea and call them The Nine Hells) and left it at that iirc.

I believe Dante's Inferno was a relatively original adaptation when describing the 9 circles, but I'm unsure if I want to publicly be discussing that in detail.

 

[Duedate8898]

Well, the issue is that there are many Christians, and likely Muslims, who would find this offensive due to being too similar to their faith, so I do not think that we should risk the controversy. It is very unnecessary, and does not cause any gain for us.

Ant, the issue I take with this stance it that disregards how we already risk such controversy with the fact we index many profiles of God specifically on this wiki as he appears across a pleothra of fictional works.

Dante's Divine Comedy is not exceptional in this at all. Dante just took a lot of inspiration from the god of the bible when creating this story, and that's okay. It isn't a problem at all.

 

[Flashlight237]

I believe Dante's Inferno was a relatively original adaptation when describing the 9 circles, but I'm unsure if I want to publicly be discussing that in detail.

I'm sure a cosmology page will squeeze it out anyway, although I don't think it matters since it doesn't look like the verse would be added anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

As long as the sources are simply referencing everything from the poem and doesn't take anything from the Bible, it is fine to me.

Ant, the issue I take with this stance it that disregards how we already risk such controversy with the fact we index many profiles of God specifically on this wiki as he appears across a pleothra of fictional works.

Dante's Divine Comedy is not exceptional in this at all. Dante just took a lot of inspiration from the god of the bible when creating this story, and that's okay. It isn't a problem at all.

Hmm. I am still uncertain about if we are taking a too high risk in this case, but I am likely outvoted here, at least so far.