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Shion vs Kama (Battle for the 2nd Strongest 6-C)

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Kama has passive mind hax. Range does not matter here, not unless Shion can partition her mind between different universes.

Also, Kama's mind hax is mainly based on perception, lust, and corruption, all in relation to the nature of her existence. Her existence across multiple universes will not matter here
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
Kama has passive mind hax. Range does not matter here, not unless Shion can partition her mind between different universes.
Also, Kama's mind hax is mainly based on perception, lust, and corruption, all in relation to the nature of her existence. Her existence across multiple universes will not matter here
Click to expand...
Based off her profile, she's an omnipresent abstract on a multiversal scale, so... saying her mind will also exist on the same scale, is not far fetched at all.

Also, pretty sure that mindhax generally doesn't work on abstracts, unless shown otherwise, but even if it does work it doesn't matter here, because, well, see above.
 
I mean, yeah, but what's your point? Kama can mind hax on a 2-A level, the question was more of range. Kama's mind hax also isn't the usual kind of mind hax either, so just being around her or seeing her is enough to make people fall into lust, via the exploitation of the desire that is innate to all beings. Hell, just knowing she exists applys resistance negation, and makes people segnificantly more likely to fall into lust. If she has an arm 18 billion universes over, or an ear 3 trillion universes over, its not really gonna matter, since her mind still exists near Kama and knows about her.

Its usually assumed by default that non-existent beings can effect other non-existent beings, and that abstracts can effect other abstracts. At the very worst, then Kama just uses her fire to destroy her.
 
The point is, you NEED multiversal range to be able to actually affect her in any way shape or form, it's quite simple really, Kama doesn't have multiversal range, thus can't affect Shion at all, regardless of 2-A mindhax or whatever, potency is irrelevant. That mindhax you explained is just empathic manipulation (at least based off that description) nothing special, how is that relevant to the range anyway? Besides abstract gods don't typically have feelings of lust innate to them like humans, or really anything biological, but I don't know Touhou so maybe I'm wrong there. resistance negation is irrelevant, because that's not the problem, her existing across all the multiverse is.

Pretty sure that's not always the case, especially when Kama is a type 2 abstract and Shion is a type 1. Shion is an actual concept on a multiversal scale it seems, Kama is just tied to the universe, which actually seems like a pretty shaky justification to me but I won't argue, because I don't know enough on that. So Kama is gonna use her universal range fire to destroy the abstract that exists all across a multiversal scale? Well I'm convinced...
 
Shion is able to percieve and be aware of beings who aren't existent on a 2-A scale, right? If this is true, then Kama should have no problem effecting her. Her mind may exist across the multiverse, but it isn't broken up across it either, so if she can know about Kama or be around her, she should still be able to be effected. This isn't like a being who needs to erase her across the entire multiverse, or be able to cause destruction across infinite universes to effect her, she just needs her mind, and unlike attacking the body, she just needs to effect her in any part of where the mind exists. If she mind haxes Shion in one universe, its not like that the rest of her mind is cut off from that, the information and effects are still within her mind. I would like you to explain why a part of the mind being a few universes over matters for the intake of the effects of the mind, especially when she isn't conventionally attacking it or anything. iirc it doesn't need to be lust specifically, they just need desire in general. I brought up the resistance negation, not because of the effect itself, but because it proves that information alone can cause mental effects, and where or how she intakes the information does not matter so long as she takes it in, thus bypassing the range issue.

Oh yeah, i forgot Kama isn't a type 1 abstract anymore. Iirc she was before but then she got erased down to her concept. Either way, Nasu concepts are transcendent of the multiverse, so as long as she can erase her concept, she should be able to do it in totality.
 
Let me say this another way. If I wanted to tell Shion about a cursed AF piece of knowledge like any of the ones found here, just to ruin her day. So, I somehow manage to get her attention, and show this really ******* cursed meme, one that can make you cringe real hard. Is one only one part of her mind that exists across the entire multiverse gonna cringe hard, or is the totally of her being going to cringe with the info I just gave her?
 
Yeah, but, pretty damn assumptious to just say 'well she just needs to affect her mind and it being multiversal in scale doesn't really matter even though she doesn't have that range.' But honestly it doesn't really matter now, I entertained this argument under the assumption that Kama was a type 1 abstract, before you continue with the mindhax stuff, rather than talking about the multiversal range, I'd like evidence of Kama affecting a type 1 abstract, with her mindhax, nothing else will suffice because this is the argument you're going with, any examples of this? Because that's needed, you need to show that you can affect type 1 abstracts with mindhax in order for it to be assumed applicable against such opponents. Or I guess conceptual mindhax may work in some cases, but this ain't that. I have more arguments regarding this paragraph, but I want you to prove this first. Lust, desire, whatever it still can be classified as empathic manip and ain't anything special.That doesn't seem to bypass the range issue with no evidence to assume so, but atm this doesn't matter anyway.

Them being transcendent of the multiverse doesn't mean jack though, until there is a proof of Kama erasing a conceptual, omnipresent being on a multiversal scale, it doesn't matter, she needs to bypass the range, period.
 
Is Godjuna a Type 1 Abstract?


I know for sure Kama can affect HIM.


It's nothing conclusive, but if Godjuna is a Type 1 Abstract then the problem is solved.
 
Oh, the reason is that Kama was a type 1 abstract before, and since type 1 abstracts are generally assumed to be able to effect other beings of their nature, she shouldn't lose this ability when she god erased down to her concept. Even if her mind hax doesn't work, her concept manip will, which undoutedly works on type 1 abstracts. She can burn her out of existence just like any other concept, and although she may not need her concept to survive, she can still be effected with these same abilities. Nasu concepts are also transcendent of reality, so if they can erase her that should work across the multiverse.

Erasing the concepts that are above the multiverse proves that if she erases them, it will naturally carry out to such a degree. She can obviously already erase 2-A conceptual beings, based on what is already on her profile
 
She actually DID erase Kiara, another 2-A, by burning her out of existence.


But Kiara clung on using her special connection to Kama as her R Counterpart. Anyone else would've been burned out of existence--not that anyone else would require Kama to use her power like that.


And also, @ Squeedword


Do you know the Titanic? It was designed to be 'unsinkable' and had multiple chambers that could hold water. However, the chambers weren't properly partitioned, water rushed in and filled them up, and the Titanic sunk like a rock.


It's the same thing here. If Shion's multiversal mind isn't or can't be properly isolated into these 'chambers', Kama's mindhax will take them one by one, each spreading into the next, and Shion will end up getting mindhaxed. I think that's what Iapitus was talking about.
 
That should be on the profile then, if she was a type 1 abstract before, and where is the evidence for it exactly? I don't see why her getting erased down to her concept would take away type 1 AE, that's wierd, but if it's true then whatever. But, according to the profiles, the likes of goetia and other demon gods are also type 2, because they aren't actual complete abstractions, only beings that are proven to totally be abstractions or ideas are considered for type 1 AE. You kind of already made this argument, this is just unneeded further elaboration. How does them being transcendent of reality automatically mean that she can erase an omnipresent absract on a multiversal scale? please explain.

So you're saying that she erases concepts on a level transcendent of the multiverse and that she can erase 2-A conceptual beings? Yeah, sure, that's cool, but we're talking about range not potency they're two completely seperate things. I', just gonna make this simple so you understand what i'm saying, and that is that being able to affect conceptual beings with 2-A potency, doesn't mean you can completetly affect beings who are abstract and omnipresent on a 2-B scale.

Anyway I'm off for now, we'll talk about this tomorrow, I guess.
 
Squeedword said:
That should be on the profile then, if she was a type 1 abstract before, and where is the evidence for it exactly? I don't see why her getting erased down to her concept would take away type 1 AE, that's wierd, but if it's true then whatever. But, according to the profiles, the likes of goetia and other demon gods are also type 2, because they aren't actual complete abstractions, only beings that are proven to totally be abstractions or ideas are considered for type 1 AE. You kind of already made this argument, this is just unneeded further elaboration. How does them being transcendent of reality automatically mean that she can erase an omnipresent absract on a multiversal scale? please explain.
So you're saying that she erases concepts on a level transcendent of the multiverse and that she can erase 2-A conceptual beings? Yeah, sure, that's cool, but we're talking about range not potency they're two completely seperate things. I', just gonna make this simple so you understand what i'm saying, and that is that being able to affect conceptual beings with 2-A potency, doesn't mean you can completetly affect beings who are abstract and omnipresent on a 2-B scale.

Anyway I'm off for now, we'll talk about this tomorrow, I guess.
Click to expand...
Read where Vishnu erased her down to her concept with the same flames she uses herself. Its rather beside the point, because it is undeniably the flames can attack on a conceptual level which is what is required to effect type 1 abstracts. Erasing someone's concept would take away type 1 abstract existence, assuming the abstract could survive, because the concept they once were no longer exists. Because the concepts exist on an even greater scale than Shion does, that is why.

Because the concept exist even outside of the multiverse. They exist above a scale that Shion exists at. If they can erase a concept of a scale even greater than her, then erasing her concept should be no issue. And before you ask why their range isn't Low 1-C or whatever, because she doesn't need to be able to touch the spiral of origin to be able to erase the concepts that exist in there, and this in general isn't how we tier range in relation to concept manip. If shion just didn't exist in the universes that Kama did, then Kama wouldn't have the range to effect her, but since Kama's fire can reach her, she can erase her concept on a transcendental level superior to what Shion exists on
 
true, but the fire is still able to damage abstract entities, which is all the fire needs. She may not need concepts to exist, but she certainly needs her abstract body, which is still getting burned in the same way
 
If she is a type 1 abstract, then she can be burned just like any other concept. If they can burn concepts that are transcendental of reality, then they should be able to burn Shion's concepts which isn't.

Actually, let's bring this up. If they are a Type 1 abstract then they are that concept. They shouldn't be able to exist without themselves. Kama at least is able to continue while not-existing, but unless someone wants to explain a quirk of touhou cosmology where a being who is a specific concept doesn't need that concept to survive, that's a pretty decent contradiction. If they are truly are an idea, then unless they have a form where they are not that idea and therefore are not abstract, they should not be able to preceed that idea.
 
Read where Vishnu erased her down to her concept with the same flames she uses herself. Its rather beside the point, because it is undeniably the flames can attack on a conceptual level which is what is required to effect type 1 abstracts. Erasing someone's concept would take away type 1 abstract existence, assuming the abstract could survive, because the concept they once were no longer exists. Because the concepts exist on an even greater scale than Shion does, that is why.

Okay, that still doesn't explain why Kama would'vs had type 1 absract existence in the 1st place, I asked you to give me proof for that and you didn't do it, so I have no reason to actually believe you. Concepts existing on a greater scale again means jackshit, concepts by default aren't omnipresent, they don't exist absolutely everywhere on a multiversal scale, at least certainly not the ones that have been destroyed by Kama AFAIK.

Because the concept exist even outside of the multiverse. They exist above a scale that Shion exists at. If they can erase a concept of a scale even greater than her, then erasing her concept should be no issue. And before you ask why their range isn't Low 1-C or whatever, because she doesn't need to be able to touch the spiral of origin to be able to erase the concepts that exist in there, and this in general isn't how we tier range in relation to concept manip. If shion just didn't exist in the universes that Kama did, then Kama wouldn't have the range to effect her, but since Kama's fire can reach her, she can erase her concept on a transcendental level superior to what Shion exists o

Kama's is not erasing Shion's concept Shion IS a concept, that's what type 1 abstract exitence is, you saying stuff like this gives me even less reason to believe that Kama was formely a type 1 absract, because you don't even seem to understand how it works. And again, no, Shion doesn't have a concept she is the concept, again, that's what type 1 AE is, destroying the bodies on a conceptual level doesn't do anything, they're just meat puppets, or manifestations, it even says on the page she can just create as many bodies as she wants from her omnipresent, abstract form. So, you need to prove that Kama can attack a concept that extends throughout the multiverse, not that she can 'erase a being on this conceptual level transcendental to this one.' Do you get me now?
 
From what folks have said on my Touhou question thread regarding the matter, unless Shion can grant herself a new concept, she will be something appropriating incapacitated if her concept is erased. Kama can still erase her.

Also, no, concepts are omnipresent by default (I'm gonna come back to this). Its straight up on the page for type 3 and 2 concepts. They intersect with all of reality that participates in them, which is all of reality. That being said, concepts in the nasuverse are not omnipresent, and they only intersect with each world individually across infinite timelines. If Vishnu's flames can erase a being down to a conceptual level, then that means he can erase their concept from the spiral of origin, which exists on a greater scale than the concept that Shion is.
 
You didn't actually respond to really anything I said properly other than the omnipresent concepts thing, and to clarify on that, I mean yes, concepts are omnipresent, however I'm pretty damn sure that a beings conceptual existence is not, at least not in all cases. That's what I meant, I didn't mean something like the concept of strength isn't omnipresent (I mean it's TECHNICALLY not more like nigh-omnipresent but whatever). All you've given me is Kama erasing beings on a conceptual level, which gives her type 3 conceptual manipulation,but it doesn't mean she can affect omnipresent concepts I'm pretty sure. This goes with any ability, such as soul manipulation, the conventional standard is being able to hit and destroy souls, however some characters with the ability can't actually do that, and instead can just take them in and out of the afterlife or something. Like Randall Flagg, at least currently, on his profile, only has the latter, despite having soul manipulation, and I'm pretty sure it's not limited soul manipulation.

The rest of your comment is irrelevant to any of my arguments, so I have no reason to respond, and I won't if you continue to seemingly just ignore what I'm saying. You never proved Kama formely had type 1 AE, you never talked about how Shion is a concept and that destroying the physical body, regardless of how it's done is irrelevant, you just keep doubling down on the same damn argument.

Actually the first thing you said might seem like it can hold some water, but it falls apart when one realises, that you've yet to prove Kama can erase an outright concept, rather than just a beings conceptual existence. Which I believe is also something you need proof of here.
 
The stuff I didn't respond to, I didn't respond to because I don't have issue with them, and you seemed to missunderstand what I was claiming. I know that type 1 abstracts are themselves concepts, and I know that bodies don't specifically mean anything, because I was more generally talking about her being in general, "body" was just a poor word choice. If a type 1 abstract is truly a concept, then they will be everywhere that the concept does, but there are specific exceptions such as Lucetta Quetzl who exists as a song, its just the the examples in question are not these exceptions. Nasu concepts do not fall into any of the usual categories, but the fact that the flames can effect concepts that exist within the spiral of origin proves that they bypass the range issue on a scale that far surpasses what Shion exists on. No idea what your soul manip point is

The rest of my comment was presenting new information towards the VS match we are discussing, so unless you are just ignoring the match at hand to discuss Verse mechanics, you should definitely respond to them. The kama previously being a type 1 abstract was a throw away supporting point, and doesn't matter since she has plenty of other conceptual means to effect Shion.

A beings conceptual existence and their concept are the exact same ******* thing, what are you talking about? If you can erase a beings concept, you can erase concepts, its not that hard. Kama also flat out has it on her profile that she can create concepts, and that she has conceptual erasure.
 
Yeah, and Kama needs multiversal range to do that, why would she be able to attack Shion's very being, that exists on a multiversal scale with universal range? Either you'vs worded this poorly again, or, you've shot yourself in the foot. Don't really know how that is relevant here, but, whatever. So the concepts are completely different from the usual conceptual shit? And no, that doesn't really prove anything, they can say, destroy something on a conceptual scale and it can extend all the way to the spiral of origin, at least that's what it seems you're saying, but this is a concept that is here and there, it's not tied to anything other than the multiverse itself, they're two different things altogether, and it seems you yourself admit that. The soul manip point is just me saying that someone having access to an ability, doesn't at all mean that you can use essentially everything that defines that power, meaning I think it's baseless to say Kama can affect omnipresent concepts because she can destroy beings on a conceptual level. You're basically saying Kama can do anything that can be used to define concept manip on a type 3 scale, despite concepts being different in nasuverse than they are in, like, anything else. A tad unfounded, to say the least.

The parts I was refering to didn't seem like anything new, I haven't checked the thread again today, I just click a notification and read your new comment, so maybe it's just deja vu but I'm positive that, at least as far as what I'm refering to is concerned, that was something you already brought up. So her being a type 1 abstract was just baseless then? No point in talking about it? Great. And you stil haven't given undeniable evidence that proves she can affect Shion. All you've really given is that Kama can erase concepts that exist within the spiral of origin, which seems to be where the concepts come from anyway, it doesn't at all prove that she can erase concepts that are omnipresent on a multiversal scale. Especially now that you've just said concepts in nasuverse are different from how they are in whatever else. Unless you have better elaboration than that.

How did you misunderstand that badly? I wasn't talking about 'a being's conceptual existence and their concept,' I was more refering to comparing a concept like life or death to a being's concept, being able to affect a beings concept doesn't mean you can like, you know, destroy the concepts of life or death. Shion is more comparable to the concept of life or death (obviously not on the same scale) than she is to a beings conceptual existence, as she is a literal concept that is omnipresent on a multiversal scale, based off her profile at least, while the nature of a beings concept is completely dependent on what verse it's from. I know she does I've read her profile, doesn't stop me from contesting these arguments though.
 
She doesn't need 2-B range to erase a concept because she can already erase concepts on an at least Low 1-C scale, for the love of ****. Do you disagree with this or just not understand it? What exactly about what I said isn't relavent? If the concept that is tied to the spiral of origin, an at least Low 1-C structure, can be erased by a lower range, then please explain why a concept tied to The Touhou Multiverse, a 2-B structure, cannot be erased by a lower range. What I'm saying is that the relavent property of type 3 concepts in this case is shared or at least bypassed with Nasu concepts, that's what I'm saying.

Some of it is new some of it is rehighlighted. Her previous type 1 abstract existence isn't baseless, but its beside the point is all. Existing on an at least Low 1-C scale is superior to existing on the totality of a 2-B scale, so yes, if she can erase concepts from the spiral of origin, she can erase a concept from the multiverse as long as at least part of the concept intersect with her range. Attacking with a concept or being able to attack a concept lets you effect an abstract like Shion, this is undeniable, and is an accepted fact of this wiki. I can link you examples of other VS threads to prove this if you want.

First off, no, Shion is not a concept comparable to the concepts of Life and Death. She is an idea, nothing more, nothing less. Ideas are much easier to erase then a fundamental aspect of existence. Second, it is an accepted fact that if you can effect and harm concepts then you can effect and harm abstracts. Third, yes, she is able to burn away concepts. If it isn't spelled out as nicely on her profile as you would like, then feel free to read it even more frankly stated on Berserker (Arjuna Alter)'s profile. The use of the exact same fire can be used to burn away concepts. If you disagree, make a CRT.
 
After all this argument, gonna say it's a tie for me boys. This one's a close one to me. But all this reasoning has me decide on that aspect.
 
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying at all, I'm not asking if Kama can hit an abstract or erase an abstract from this level of existence or anything like that, at least I'm not now, I want you to show me Kama interacting with an omnipresent, not a concept. Yeah, I've talked about the abstract and conceptual stuff on a few posts, mostly because some of this shit doesn't make any sense. I mean if Kama can erase concepts from the sphere of origin, doesn't that just mean you don't need Low 1-C range to affect it? Based off what I'ver seen, this isn't the case with any of the Touhou gods, that's what I'm saying, these two are completely incomparable, they work differently from each other, is that such a hard concept to grasp? Anyway, like I said, don't want to talk about that for now, just prove kama can hit an omnipresent first.

Attacking a concept doesn't mean you can attack an omnipresent, pretty sure that's why rimuru and devimon, both of whom have concept manip, are below Shion on that top strongest characters list this is for. If they can't do it, why can Kama? Because she can apparently erase things conceptually from a Low 1-C realm I guess you're gonna say for the millionth ******* time, because apparently you still don't realise that destroying the bodies does jack. Hell, if you don't get it by now, go to that old Pelinal vs Iwanagahime thread, sure I disagree with pelinal not being able to interact with Iwanagahime 100%, especially since he has outerversal range. But in that thread, it was argued pelinal wouldn't be able to win if he lacked range despite him being able to do what you keep saying Kama can just on a beyond infinitely better scale. I don't really want to point to a thread I disagree with, but the points there are basically what I'm arguing here, it's just more valid to me, because Pelinal had more than enough range to win, while Kama has nowhere near enough, do you finally ******* understand?

I never said she's comparable to the concepts of life and death, I said she's closer to them than a beings conceptual existence, but whatever, believe what you want to believe. Yeah, but not omnipresents, which is basically what I'm arguing. Never said she couldn't burn away concepts generally, I basically said it's NLF to say she can burn away an omnipresent concept she can't interact with, not gonna make a CRT on it. I don't get how you've just glossed over the omnipresence for so damn long, even after saying yourself Shion's bodies don't mean anything, most people at that point would just try to prove that the character they're arguing for can hit omnipresents, rather than constantly double down on the same conceptual arguement over and over and over.
 
Ok, so I see you've changed your point from before. Effecting an omnipresent being is no different from effecting any other incredibly large or non-corporeal being. You need a lot more than just range to effect the swirl of the root, but that's not what she is doing. She is erasing a concept that also exists within the at least Low 1-C structure, and also exists within The World(s) and universe(s) they inhabit, so since she can erase the concept that exists across this scale, she can erase Shion who exists on a far lesser scale. Her being omnipresent doesn't save her.

You are right. Attacking a concept doesn't mean you can attack an omnipresent being. Know what does mean you can effect an Omnipresent being? Non-Physical Interaction, which is on Kama's profile. Rimuru is bellow Shion because he cannot effect Non-existent beings, but Kama can. Devimon is bellow Shion because he cannot erase her in totality, due to his concept manip working differently from Kama's. We stopped talking about the bodies thing a while ago when I said it was the wrong term to use. I completely understand your point, the difference between this thread and that thread is that Kama's concept manip can bypass range as long as at least part of the concept intersects with her range.

Because all it takes to attack an omnipresent being is Non-Physical Interaction, that's why I've glossed over it. If the issue is being able to effect the entire thing, then she can bypass that need due to the nature of her concept manip.
 
It's not really different no, part of the reason I started bringing up the abstract existence was because of the omnipresence I'm aware Kama can affect abstracts, I'm not convinced she can affect an omnipresent abstact but I decided to just ask why she could hit an omnipresent because you never actually gave any evidence as to why she could, don't see why it matters anyway.

No, non-physical interaction by default doesn't mean you can hit omnipresents, non-corporeals, intangibles or non-existents, hell even abstracts can be hit by it see D&D, they're all quite different, show me Kama hitting an omnipresent rather than just saying 'LOl noN-PHysiCAl INTeractION yOU'rE wRONg maTe.' I mean, you could make the argument that non-corporeals and omnipresents are similar, but you do realise how different many non-corporeals are from each other right? Some are like souls, some are data, some are just really potent. Just slapping two abilities on to your point won't get you anywhere, please prove Kama, in this form can affect omnipresents, if you don't, no one who can put two and two together is gonna believe you. Yep, and as far as I'm aware Kama can't hit omnipresents. All Kama can affect is the bodies AFAIK so that's why I brought them up.

Once again there are many different forms of non-physical interaction, just saying Kama can hit omnipresents because she has it, is a NLF, and this also ties in with that soul manip argument I brought up earlier. Also I told you to read that Pelinal vs Iwanagahime thread, even though I think it's stupid and disagree with it, I can tell you didn't.
 
And to clarify, at the time that thread was made, Pelinal is capable of erasing things from the dream of the Godhead, a far greater level of EE than what Kama is capable of, and yes, it was on his profile at the time. I think this is relevant because Kama's way of attacking conceptually is through whatever fire she uses, and she can't attack something that is omnipresent throughout a multiverse despite what her conceptual EE might do AFTER it has erased something, this argument is actually kind of the same.
 
And, sorry to spam posts, but thinking about it more deeply, what should it mean to erase something on a conceptual level? Simple, it SHOULD mean that the don't exist, didn't exist and won't exist. So I think that if a 2-C erases something on a conceptual level, it shouldn't exist even across a 1-A reality anymore. This argument should hold some weight, because above, I believe that you said concepts in Nasuverse aren't omnipresent, correct? Or was it a typo? If it was a typo, ignore this, if not, I think you should see where I'm coming from.

Anyway I'm gonna go now, so I'll finally vote inconclusive, as I don't believe either one can affect the other, if you have anymore arguments we can go again tomorrow, but for now I'm off.
 
Yeah, i don't think both of them can affect each other despite Kama had hax advantage

Inconclusive for Mr. Pillarman Squidward reason above
 
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