Shinza banshou discussion thread~Revival~

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Didn't know only fat people can't fit inside a box the size of my hand

That's assuming the box can be of any arbitrary size. If you can prove the angels in question can't fit inside the world regardless of how big the world becomes then this can be applicable.



My example can apply to all of that.

btw what do you think about 1-B gods with 1-A hax?

 

[PrinceofPein]

My example can apply to all of that.

You should go and downgrade nyarlothortep to 3D since he also need avatar to enter the human world, as your box analogy apply to that
This is ******* laughable

 

[PrinceofPein]

btw what do you think about 1-B gods with 1-A hax?

The gods themselves embody their own law it can't work.

 

[Odinson]

That's assuming the box can be of any arbitrary size. If you can prove the angels in question can't fit inside the world regardless of how big the world becomes then this can be applicable

Your comprehension is really bad no offense. Pain isn't saying "Angels need Avatars because they are too stronk so they're beyond 3D World" but "Angels are beyond 3D World, infact they need Avatars itself to interact with the inferior dimension".

 

[Odinson]

btw what do you think about 1-B gods with 1-A hax?

They are themselves walking Laws. This is why Ren had High 1-A time manipulation because he himself is a walking Hax.

 

[Darksmash]

Coupled with them called higher dimensional and that only attacks from higher dimensions can hurt them, even their avatars cannot be hurt by anything aside something from the higher dimension the true anti-angel is or something from an even higher world.

This isn't really relevant at all.

how higher dimensions is infinitely above lower ones e.t.c.

Was it verbatim stated that those dimensions are infinitely above lower ones? If yes then it should be fine.

You should go and downgrade nyarlothortep to 3D since he also need avatar to enter the human world, as your box analogy apply to that
This is ******* laughable

Calm down, Lovecraft dimensions have enough evidence and context to be transcendent.

 

[Darksmash]

Your comprehension is really bad no offense. Pain isn't saying "Angels need Avatars because they are too stronk so they're beyond 3D World" but "Angels are beyond 3D World, infact they need Avatars itself to interact with the inferior dimension".

I would suggest not resorting to ad hominems, especially when you can't even comprehend what I am arguing yourself. I said that needing avatars to interact with something doesn't equate to necessarily having infinite superiority. I don't know what you are trying to prove by saying what you did, but it surely has no relation to what I said.

 

[Odinson]

but it surely has no relation to what I said

It has relation though. "I can't see the picture means it doesn't exist" isn't what we do here.

And PL has tons of the fact that dimensions are transcendent In fact the one from.PL is so much that a 4D cannot enter a 3D world except through an avatar

In fact one from PL is so much

 

[PrinceofPein]

This isn't really relevant at all.

It is relevant when it was stated that only higher dimensional energy can hurt them cause they are higher dimensional

Was it verbatim stated that those dimensions are infinitely above lower ones? If yes then it should be fine.

Yes I have said that plenty of times

Calm down, Lovecraft dimensions have enough evidence and context to be transcendent.

Do they tho?
I remembered you trying to downgrade them

I would suggest not resorting to ad hominems, especially when you can't even comprehend what I am arguing yourself. I said that needing avatars to interact with something doesn't equate to necessarily having infinite superiority. I don't know what you are trying to prove by saying what you did, but it surely has no relation to what I said.

Demons reside in the higher dimension to Gaia, and thus unable to remain in the physical realm for a long time. In order for demons to interact with the material world, they require a host to possess. Even after possessing the host, attacks from the material world will no longer harm the host, and only higher dimensional hax/attack can harm the host.
Material world here is 3D
While demons can come from.the higher worlds up to 13D

 

[Darksmash]

Yes I have said that plenty of times

In that case it is fine.
Though that still doesn't prevent the issues with saying Pseudo Gods being called higher dimensional was actually beyond dimensional

 

[Darksmash]

Do they tho?
I remembered you trying to downgrade them

Also
Please don't bring up bad memories

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

They are themselves walking Laws. This is why Ren had High 1-A time manipulation because he himself is a walking Hax.

hm, shouldn't the fact that the gods themselves are the law is kinda flowery language? i mean we see that they have a physical body, higher dimensional maybe, it could be that the god is just the physical manifestation of the law.Even tho, gods can still affect singularity with it, which isn't said to be bound by dimensions. which should grant them 1-A hax, if not outright 1-A.

 

[PrinceofPein]

In that case it is fine.
Though that still doesn't prevent the issues with saying Pseudo Gods being called higher dimensional was actually beyond dimensional

the pseudo god of a thing was an analogy of akuro and soujiro fight
"it was not because akuro was robust or tanky, but because he exist from another phase of physics, so attacks from higher dimensions are easier to pass than twisting a baby hands. akuro was simply disconnected from the world" this was just explaining how akuro can attack soujiro with no problem compared to soujiro attacking him
well currently a 1A world can be a mathematical or physics according to the tiering system.
also if we are to take the narrators speech the way you are analysing them, that would make the tenmas 4D, cause soujiro was 3D here.

 

[Everything12]

hm, shouldn't the fact that the gods themselves are the law is kinda flowery language? i mean we see that they have a physical body, higher dimensional maybe, it could be that the god is just the physical manifestation of the law.Even tho, gods can still affect singularity with it, which isn't said to be bound by dimensions. which should grant them 1-A hax, if not outright 1-A.

 

[Darksmash]

well currently a 1A world can be a mathematical or physics according to the tiering system.

Yes it can be, but the problem arises when you get the 1-A by arguments such as "beyond dimensions" or "beyond physics" in the first place, which is what most argue for Hadou Gods.

also if we are to take the narrators speech the way you are analysing them, that would make the tenmas 4D, cause soujiro was 3D here.

Not necessarily, since a higher dimension can be arbitrarily higher compared to a lower one. You just can't say it would be something like beyond dimensional if the analogy used is higher dimensional. Couple this with the throne being called higher dimensional in PL, and seemingly again in Avesta as well kinda makes the whole thing very suspicious.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Yes it can be, but the problem arises when you get the 1-A by arguments such as "beyond dimensions" or "beyond physics" in the first place, which is what most argue for Hadou Gods.

well with the fact that increase in dimensions and decrease in dimensions of the cosmology has no effect on the gods too.
i am arguing countless into 1B and that is what my CRT is for

Not necessarily, since a higher dimension can be arbitrarily higher compared to a lower one. You just can't say it would be something like beyond dimensional if the analogy used is higher dimensional. Couple this with the throne being called higher dimensional in PL, and seemingly again in Avesta as well kinda makes the whole thing very suspicious.

This PL thing is soomething else, the throne is not only higher dimensioned but inaccessible, there are up to 13D, but everything is else can be reached the higher you go but it becomes inaccessibe when you get to climbing up to the throne, it cannot be reached by any means

 

[Darksmash]

well with the fact that increase in dimensions and decrease in dimensions of the cosmology has no effect on the gods too.

Why would it need to have effect on them in the first place though?
For example if Gods are any arbitrary X dimensional, why would it matter to them if creation is Y dimensional or Y-1 dimensional as long as Y is less than X?

i am arguing

That's fine, since I was mainly talking about the 1-A shit.

This PL thing is soomething else, the throne is not only higher dimensioned but inaccessible, there are up to 13D, but everything is else can be reached the higher you go but it becomes inaccessibe when you get to climbing up to the throne, it cannot be reached by any means

It depends on the algorithm of the Inaccessibility. Do they have the ability to keep going to higher and higher dimensions? Or does their ability just cap at 13D, being unable to reach the last dimension?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Why would it need to have effect on them in the first place though?
For example if Gods are any arbitrary X dimensional, why would it matter to them if creation is Y dimensional or Y-1 dimensional as long as Y is less than X?

It helps the claim that taiji is the source of all of existence, duality, concepts and phenomena(including dimesnsions) and also disconnected from it, as it is not affected by any change made to reality

It depends on the algorithm of the Inaccessibility. Do they have the ability to keep going to higher and higher dimensions? Or does their ability just cap at 13D, being unable to reach the last dimension?

yes they can keep ascending but they cannot reach the Judecca due it nature

 

[Darksmash]

It helps the claim that taiji is the source of all of existence, duality, concepts and phenomena(including dimesnsions) and also disconnected from it, as it is not affected by any change made to reality

Any X dimensional being would be disconnected from all the lower X-1 dimensions. Plus as I already explained the beyond dimensional arguments won't really help due to counter context for the terminology with calling things like Pseudo Gods and Throne higher dimensional. I am pretty sure Yuri addressed most of this stuff on his thread.

yes they can keep ascending but they cannot reach the Judecca due it nature

If that happens verbatim like how you stated it then why hasn't anybody used that as an argument till now? That's like textbook example of 1-A, continuously ascending but being unable to reach the 1-A realm.

 

[PrinceofPein]

f that happens verbatim like how you stated it then why hasn't anybody used that as an argument till now? That's like textbook example of 1-A, continuously ascending but being unable to reach the 1-A realm.

cause masada himself said he wants to scratch PL, and i also think he should

 

[Everything12]

That's neither here or there. Hasn't been retconned yet so everything in it is still applicable as is how the Wiki treats such statements. As Tsukihime can attest to.

 

[PrinceofPein]

he will get there soon
i personally think everyone should wait before making drastic changes to the profiles aside from making them countless into 1B everything else should wait
cause we are about to get the backstory of the shinza world which will decide how the gods are actually, just a single thing like taiji predates existence is enough i will be the one making the 1A+ CRT myself, and maybe H1A for the naraka

 

[Everything12]

I completely veto that idea, the Avesta story took two years to finish. We aren't waiting that long to use information hat is already out. We update information as we gain new information, we don't sit on our laurels and wait for information hat may or may not come.

Plus we already have this
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616966401344667678/image0.png

Taikyoku--Origin of all things in Onmyoudou (Way of Yin and Yang), concept pointing to the nucleus of the universe.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616966401969881138/image1.png

To draw power and grasp the knowledge of everything, the source of all phenomena and the origin of all things. To see all and do all.

 

[Odinson]

If that happens verbatim like how you stated it then why hasn't anybody used that as an argument till now? That's like textbook example of 1-A, continuously ascending but being unable to reach the 1-A realm.

Because some of us were trying to get them to 1-A via the beyond dimensional stuff.

I agree that we should use the info we have for upgrades/downgrades. If Masada retcons stuff we can just edit the profiles by making revision threads.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I completely veto that idea, the Avesta story took two years to finish. We aren't waiting that long to use information hat is already out. We update information as we gain new information, we don't sit on our laurels and wait for information hat may or may not come.

Plus we already have this
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616966401344667678/image0.png

Taikyoku--Origin of all things in Onmyoudou (Way of Yin and Yang), concept pointing to the nucleus of the universe.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616966401969881138/image1.png

To draw power and grasp the knowledge of everything, the source of all phenomena and the origin of all things. To see all and do all.

this is okay too

 

[PrinceofPein]

At Least High Complex Multiverse Level (Gods are higher dimensional beings that exists beyond the multiverse, with the throne being described as a world inaccesible by demons in Paradise Lost, with dimensions holding the same difference as the one between reality and fiction), likely Hyperverse level (Gods can pierce through the Singularity and its dimensional layers, including that of its center, where the Throne resides. While the amount of layers depends of the Throne God in place, Mercurius' stated that goingthrough the one under his heaven would be like "falling forever" while Hajun's was stated to be above the former, to the point of it only taking "the time a person would hold their breath" in comparison to the thousands of years Yato put drilling through it. Whether these dimensional layers works on a power is however left vague, since Soujirou and Shiori, two Gods below Yato, succeeded in breaching the last layer he didn't get through).

 

[PrinceofPein]

1- " The universe as a whole obeyed his script, and to a being who could realign the cosmos at will, a concept like time meant painfully little. By arranging the Milky Way, he could make it so that something never existed to begin with.", - Dies Irae, this states that Time is meaningless in the Realm of the Throne. This is further backed by, "No one knew exactly how many stars flickered and lived in the world since the advent of foreknowledge's tyranny.---And now all of them are in the palm of his hand." - Dies Irae, all Stars that ever existed across his era of the Throne, even those long since dead, all were able to be called back. This was not the creation of stars, for it explicitly mentioned that these were all the Stars from the past. This would in of itself imply that Mercurius, and by extension all other Gods, are beyond Dimensionality, time and space are basically equivalent after all. But this is ultimately not enough to extrapolate in a fictional context.

2- "The Caduceus rumbled. He commanded the laws of the universe to do his bidding, emanating light and waves which exceeded human comprehension. All phenomena and all foreknowledge; all cravings and souls that existed within the world- save for the Goddess, the substitute, and the Gold and his Legion- were inside his dominion", this is to say that all concepts, apart from the transcendent, Taikyoku ones, are all completely under his control, this backs up the idea that it includes dimensionality.

3- "万象の根源として、総てを司る主として、真実のこいつが表出しようとしているのだ。 その場所とは、すなわち太極座。既存の法を流れ出させている事象の中心、宇宙の核だ"

4- "己が法則で森羅万象を制圧する太極と、己が法則のみ森羅万象から外れるという太極である", Taikyoku controls all things.

5- "険えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと、それが現実の 人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ", -Kajiri Kamui Kagura, this painting metaphor is quite consistent, "No, I know it to be impossible. Once an Emanation begins, it expands to blanket all creation and reach permeance, at which point it can only be repainted by someone else.---At this moment, we are in a singularity. Owing to this phenomenon, the flow has been forced to a halt. The brush fell into the hole; the paint on the canvas is being neglected." -Dies Irae, and "It could be described with a piece of paper.---On it would be a picture representing 'Foreknowledge'--Two Fresh colours, 'Standstill' and 'the Dead', vied for supremacy upon one of its corners - The realm of Shambhala. Their struggle would be a ceaseless back-and forth, one painting over the other and vice versa.---The two colours differed in nature. "Standstill" was a pencil, while 'The Dead' amounted to the paint being released onto the paper directly from a tube. -- (skipped a little) -- The result was obvious.--- The combination of relentless pencil strokes and pierce recolouring tore open a hole in the paper before the picture was even close to being finished. Indeed - a hole. That was the result of reaching the critical point. Defining such a thing was no easy task.--- Though the picture served as the stage, the resulting phenomenon was neither picture, nor colour. To call it a singularity of the world would be most apt. --- The size of the hole was unknown. It could have been large enough to engulf Shambala, great enough to go beyond that, or perhaps, even small enough to fit on the tip of a needle.--- Regardless of its size, the singularity had manifested itself... and the ones responsible for making it appear to have fallen into it. What would they find below the paper?" -Dies Irae, the world is quite consistent shown to all be a Canvas in which concepts are painted upon, and which is like a harmless fiction compared to the Gods.

5- "何も難しい話ではない。前述した水中の法が太極と化したなら、全宇宙が水底に変わるというだけのこと。もしくは、宇宙を砕く領域の法でなければ蒸発も凍結もしない水が誕生するだけのこと" -Kajiri Kamui Kagura, this says that Taikyoku Laws apply to All Creation, and when changed, fundamentally change and paint the entire universe and all phenomena in it are shaped un accordance with a Taikyoku Law. Dimensionality is shown to be able to be changed on an entirely local scale, and is not immutable, but every changeable. This is to say, it is under the control of any Hadou God. As any Non-Taikyoku Concept is under their manipulation.

There are various other quotes on this, most are in Kajiri Kamui Kagura, which is harder to get my hands on quotes from.

This is shown to be able to be to any degree, as the World can be expanded to higher dimensionalities, look at the higher dimensions in Paradise Lost, or how Yakou Madara was able to expand the world to higher dimensions in a localized space. This, however, is not able to reach the Throne through dimensionality alone. Nor even could they reach the Singularity through it, for the Singularity is, according to Dies Irae, "It was a perfectly blank slate. Harbouring no colour, but open to any, it was a fitting location for the final battle", this means that the Singularity is free of any "colour" or "concept/law", and the Singularity always lays beyond and transcendent to the World, backed up by, "a single glance was enough for me to comprehend this place and its nature.--- Marie used to linger here, but the place was deserted once she had emanated with me. Visually, it remained the same, but if I were to borrow his words, it did resemble a picture frame. At its core, it was a completely blank slate.", furthermore "She is the world's singularity. A being outside the boundaries of that law.-- She is dead, yet she is not. She exists outside this world's concepts.-- Perpetual. Eternal. Immortal. Divine. Infinite. Life beyond Death."


Thus, it really means nothing as we already knew that they are beyond dimensionality. And the true "spirit of the word" if you will, behind "Super-High Dimension" actually is in reference to being beyond such concepts. I hope this is enough to back up by viewpoint on this matter.

• https://www.fanverse.org/posts/63234513/reactions?reaction_id=11

 

[Everything12]

That thing about piercing the Dimensional layers of the Singulairty, can you instead take screenshot of the relevant section instead instead of just linking a video with no timestamps.

 

[Tarang123]

That thing about piercing the Dimensional layers of the Singulairty, can you instead take screenshot of the relevant section instead instead of just linking a video with no timestamps.

I’ve seen that vid before, I could try making a scan based on that.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I’ve seen that vid before, I could try making a scan based on that.

that would be nice if you can help with that, i am also working on the CRT currently

 

[Everything12]

Still think that axing Higher Dimensions doesn't make sense, we know how they operate, we even have them currently accepted, and even if the barrier of Madara is suspicious we have all those mentions of Paradise Lost's Higher Dimensions.

 

[Tarang123]

At Least High Complex Multiverse Level (Gods are higher dimensional beings that exists beyond the multiverse, with the throne being described as a world inaccesible by demons in Paradise Lost, with dimensions holding the same difference as the one between reality and fiction), likely Hyperverse level (Gods can pierce through the Singularity and its dimensional layers, including that of its center, where the Throne resides. While the amount of layers depends of the Throne God in place, Mercurius' stated that goingthrough the one under his heaven would be like "falling forever" while Hajun's was stated to be above the former, to the point of it only taking "the time a person would hold their breath" in comparison to the thousands of years Yato put drilling through it. Whether these dimensional layers works on a power is however left vague, since Soujirou and Shiori, two Gods below Yato, succeeded in breaching the last layer he didn't get through).

Just a minor thing is that yato would have reached the bottom

 

[PrinceofPein]

Still think that axing Higher Dimensions doesn't make sense, we know how they operate, we even have them currently accepted, and even if the barrier of Madara is suspicious we have all those mentions of Paradise Lost's Higher Dimensions.

i am not axxing them, they would still be 1B, the thing is the dimensions in PL are only 10, with the throne the 11th one although the throne is inaccessible by anything not a god

 

[PrinceofPein]

Just a minor thing is that yato would have reached the bottom

yeah he did not though and he still wont have reached it

 

[Tarang123]

yeah he did not though and he still wont have reached it

He would, tho. Had habaki failed to reach his expectations he would have fought hajun himself, giving a pretty clear indication that he definitely would have reached the bottom.

 

[PrinceofPein]

He would, tho. Had habaki failed to reach his expectations he would have fought hajun himself, giving a pretty clear indication that he definitely would have reached the bottom.

i guess you should really really really read KKK

 

[Everything12]

I mean the Singularity is completely outside the Canvas the Higher Dimensuons operate, and is unaffected by the formation of a new Heaven unlike the Higher Dimensions. Its completely outside the Hierachy of Dimensions, and the Throne is called not a Higher Dimension but a Super High Dimension/Hyper Dimensional which suggests that its something else completely from Higher Dimensions.

The Keter might be what leads to the Throne, but itself is something different to the rest of the Sefirot and really can't be compared.

 

[Tarang123]

i guess you should really really really read KKK

Bruh, I already read the fight lol, and even the many implications of him reaching the bottom.

 

[Tarang123]

From what I remember, Keter is supposed to be a manifestation of the Throne.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Bruh, I already read the fight lol, and even the many implications of him reaching the bottom.

if you did then you will know a hadou god would never reach hajun throne