Shin sucks, Sakura fuc-am I allowed to finish the sentence?

[DavidTPPM]

This was originally going to be just a Shin revision but with the new speed upgrade for the verse there's more that needs to be said. I'll try to make this as simple as possible (and I will fail).

Shin is poopy (AP)​

Shins AP is currently scaled like this

Small Planet level (He could match and harm Sakura Haruno with his blows, with Sakura being able to parry blows from his Mangekyō Sharingan-controlled arm and take attacks from his Mangekyō Sharingan-controlled weapons[59][Note 1]), higher with Mangekyō Sharingan (He was able to harm both Sasuke and Naruto with his Mangekyō Sharingan controlled weaponry[60], even managing to pierce straight through Naruto's chakra cloak, which is especially resistant to cutting and piercing attacks[61][62], to the point that a Chidori from Part II Sasuke was unable to pierce it[63])

The Sakura part doesn't make sense because Sakuras L5B rating comes from Shin to begin with. Meaning Shins true L5B justification is this part

He was able to harm both Sasuke and Naruto with his Mangekyō Sharingan controlled weaponry[60], even managing to pierce straight through Naruto's chakra cloak, which is especially resistant to cutting and piercing attacks[61][62], to the point that a Chidori from Part II Sasuke was unable to pierce it[63]

Now here's the issue: He only cut off guard Naruto with Sasukes sword. Now I'm not really active on the Naruto side of vsbw and I'm sure this has been argued to death in the past, but this time it's different. This time we have official confirmation that Sasuke enhances his swords cutting power with his own chakra. Furthermore, the rating lists Naruto tanking war arc Sasukes chidori as a feat for its cutting resistance but that Naruto not only reacted to the chidori but also seemingly guarded himself. Meaning

1. The weapon used is not Shins and Shin can't normally access it.
2. The weapon used was most likely imbued with Sasukes chakra as Sasuke was just about to attack Shin with it.
3. Naruto was offguard.

This means Shins scaling to Naruto and Sasuke is now completely unjustified and generally unlikely.

Shin is stinky (speed)​

Shin scales to FTL+ after the upgrades with this justification

FTL+ (Can keep up with Sasuke on multiple occasions and partially reacted to Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo before getting caught[Note 2])

So let's break it down. First this part:

Can keep up with Sasuke on multiple occasions

Again, I think this was most likely discussed gajillion times already, but Sasukes chakra and visual prowess were greatly diminished due to Sasuke using a lot of chakra when going through Kaguyas dimensions. Naruto even notes "This explains things" in regards to Sasukes poor performance against Shin. Mind you, last time Naruto has seen Sasuke fight (at least to our knowledge) at full power it was in the war arc, so his statement isn't even referring to current Sasukes peak.
Meaning that not only is Shin keeping up with Sasuke here not a feat due to Sasuke being weakened, it's actually a noteworthy anti-feat.

Now for this part:

partially reacted to Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo before getting caught[Note 2]

That's just not really true. Shin only "reacts" to the susanoo after it's attack had already hit him and then immediately gets blitzed by it despite the susanoos enormous size and the fact it's literally coming from a large distance away.

To make matters worse, base Naruto was capable of reacting to Shins sneak attack and was completely unbothered by it, making Shin scaling to Naruto or Sasukes full speed completely unjustified and pretty much contradicted by his actual (anti) feats.

Sakuras fists get hit hard when she thinks of Sasuke (Sakuras new value ig)​

The same novel that was used to upgrade Sakuras speed mentions this fun little thing:

Sakura is said to possess "unparalleled superhuman strength" even in base, although when "spliced up with rage". This should make her physically stronger than 6 Paths Naruto who at this point scales to 845.9 Exatons, or low 5-B. Exactly the same value she currently scales to but for a different reason.

Shin took a shower? (Shins actual scaling)​

Shin still scales to Sakura. He clearly tagged her and his weapons were capable of piercing her skin. The is even more apparent in the anime version. Now without her current scaling to Shin, Sakuras new ratings would be Low 5-B and FTL with Empowerment. Sakuras empowerment is tied towards Sasuke and when fighting Shin, she was essentially doing it all for Sasuke, since Shin attacked and threatened both Sasuke and their daughter. New Shin scaling should therefore look like this:

AP:

At least Small Planet level (Capable of damaging and matching Sakura Uchiha in combat)

Speed:

At least FTL (Capable of keeping up with Sakura Uchiha)

This also makes full power Naruto and Sasuke scaling above shippudens top tiers more consistent.

Spoiler: Bonus

Since as I mentioned, base Naruto blatantly reacted to Shins attack, we can now remove the horrendous FTL justification he has now

FTL (Faster than his EOS and New era Base Form, who was able to dodge a photon gun multiple times while weakened and unable to manipulate chakra)

For

FTL (Faster than his EOS and New era Base Form, who was able to react to Shin Uchihas sneak attack despite his battle senses growing dull and his body growing so rusty Sasuke called his fighting display pathetic)

Furthermore this should also upscale the last BSM Naruto and TCM Toneri to FTL+ due to them being far faster than base Nard.

TL;DR: Sakura was carried by scaling to Shin, now Shin is carried by scaling to Sakura.

Agree:
Disagree:

 

[Samlex1234]

Following.

 

[Nierre]

on first glance this looks fine.

I definitely agree with changing the justifications so good job with that

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Shin is poopy (AP)​

Shin is stinky (speed)​

Shin took a shower?​

Idk guys I think he doesn't like Shin

Also shouldn't Sakura scale to 1.69 ZT? Shin pierced KCM naruto after all

 

[DavidTPPM]

Idk guys I think he doesn't like Shin

Nah i fw Shin actually, he's a fun character. I just don't like his goofy scaling justifications on the wiki.

Also shouldn't Sakura scale to 1.69 ZT? Shin pierced KCM naruto after all

Me genuinely tweaking after I spent an hour writing a CRT just for someone to completely ignore one of the first things it addresses:

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Nah i fw Shin actually, he's a fun character. I just don't like his goofy scaling justifications on the wiki.

Me genuinely tweaking after I spent an hour writing a CRT just for someone to completely ignore one of the first things it addresses:

mb dawg I stopped reading after realising this isnt a tier downgrade

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

This should make her physically stronger than 6 Paths Naruto who at this point scales to 845.9 Exatons, or low 5-B. Exactly the same value she currently scales to but for a different reason.

Sorry if I missed any part but shouldn't Six Paths Naruto be the doubled value of Hag's Calc?

this is boruto era versions of them which fought momo a few episodes later

 

[Nierre]

this is boruto era versions of them which fought momo a few episodes later

alot of time passed since Academy/Shin arc and the Versus Momoshiki arc (Sarada and Co are like 9-11, but then are 12 by Momoshiki's arc). Naruto's also suggested to have trained by the time of the invasion iirc

 

[DavidTPPM]

this is boruto era versions of them which fought momo a few episodes later

No. For one, Sakuras statement is made in the blank period meaning it refers to BP Naruto, not Momoshiki fight Naruto.
Second thing is, the Momoshiki fight happens chronologically like multiple months after Naruto Gaiden (iirc) and Naruto even has a little anime only training in between them. Meaning Sakura doesn't scale to Momoshiki arc Nard

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

alot of time passed since Academy/Shin arc and the Versus Momoshiki arc (Sarada and Co are like 9-11, but then are 12 by Momoshiki's arc). Naruto's also suggested to have trained by the time of the invasion iirc

I doubt a few year difference is realistically doing anything
We accept Kaguya scaling to Toneri because their boruto era forms find her strong
and what was the statement regarding them training again?

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

We accept Kaguya scaling to Toneri because boruto era forms find her strong

Where in the profiles is that mentioned?

 

[Nierre]

I doubt a few year difference is realistically doing anything
We accept Kaguya scaling to Toneri because their boruto era forms find her strong
and what was the statement regarding them training again?

characters get stronger for less

 

[Godernet]

a couple issues,

Now here's the issue: He only cut off guard Naruto with Sasukes sword. Now I'm not really active on the Naruto side of vsbw and I'm sure this has been argued to death in the past, but this time it's different. This time we have official confirmation that Sasuke enhances his swords cutting power with his own chakra.

you would have to prove that the chakra enhancement stays after the sword leaves Sasuke's hand, which if I remember correctly, isn't how his chakra-enhanced sword works.

Furthermore, the rating lists Naruto tanking war arc Sasukes chidori as a feat for its cutting resistance but that Naruto not only reacted to the chidori but also seemingly guarded himself.

Naruto's chakra cloaks don't have off-guard durability, it's literally just Kurama's chakra constantly shrouding Naruto's body, he doesn't have to infuse anything with chakra control to keep it up like chakra enhancement.

you also neglected to mention Sasuke taking damage from Shin, using his own weapons while Sasuke was clearly on guard.

Again, I think this was most likely discussed gajillion times already, but Sasukes chakra and visual prowess were greatly diminished due to Sasuke using a lot of chakra when going through Kaguyas dimensions. Naruto even notes "This explains things" in regards to Sasukes poor performance against Shin. Mind you, last time Naruto has seen Sasuke fight (at least to our knowledge) at full power it was in the war arc, so his statement isn't even referring to current Sasukes peak.
Meaning that not only is Shin keeping up with Sasuke here not a feat due to Sasuke being weakened, it's actually a noteworthy anti-feat.

a rinneganless Sasuke can still compete with Borushiki and Code in terms of speed so him being out of a bit of chakra and being unquantifiably weaker doesn't change much here.

That's just not really true. Shin only "reacts" to the susanoo after it's attack had already hit him and then immediately gets blitzed by it despite the susanoos enormous size and the fact it's literally coming from a large distance away.

that is not a blitz, his speed didn't surpass Shin's reaction, movement, or combat speeds.

Shin literally just turned around and got snuck by the Perfect Susano'o, this can happen to people even with relative speed.

To make matters worse, base Naruto was capable of reacting to Shins sneak attack and was completely unbothered by it, making Shin scaling to Naruto or Sasukes full speed completely unjustified and pretty much contradicted by his actual (anti) feats.

Base Naruto is also FTL+ as he could still compete with Fused Momo somewhat, so this isn't really an anti-feat.

Sakura is said to possess "unparalleled superhuman strength" even in base, although when "spliced up with rage". This should make her physically stronger than 6 Paths Naruto who at this point scales to 845.9 Exatons, or low 5-B. Exactly the same value she currently scales to but for a different reason.

too flowery to be used as primary justification IMO, the shin stuff, based on actual feats is probably better, but this can be added as a side justification ig.

overall I probably disagree with the thread but adjusting Sakura's justification might be fine.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I doubt a few year difference is realistically doing anything

Few years? Naruto vs Momoshiki happens literally 13 years after Sakuras statement. And Naruto went from below Kakashi level to above sage Jiraya level in like a week of training so he most definitely should have the time to grow in strength

We accept Kaguya scaling to Toneri because their boruto era forms find her strong

Honestly idk what are you trying to argue about here. When Sakuras statement is made Naruto only scales to the value I listed in the OP so she can only scale to that.

and what was the statement regarding them training again?

I remember there being a scene in the anime where Naruto trained + he admitted he's pitifully rusty in Gaiden so it would be only logical for him to train knowing a beyond Kaguya level threat might be approaching earth.

 

[DavidTPPM]

you would have to prove that the chakra enhancement carries on after the sword leaves Sasuke's hand, which if im remember correctly, isn't how his chakra enhanced sword works.

I don’t see a reason to assume it would disappear, especially in such a short period of time. Chakra charged weapons are thrown all the time and the chakra doesn't just magically disappear from them.

The sword is also so close to Sasukes hand after it already enters Naruto that it was probably still touching Sasuke as it went in, so all things considered I feel like you would need evidence the chakra disappeared rather than that the chakra was still there.

Naruto's chakra cloaks don't have off-guard durability, it's literally just Kurama's chakra constantly shrouding Naruto's body, he doesn't have to infuse anything with chakra control to keep it up like chakra enhancement.

You'd have to prove Naruto can't amp it further. Otherwise there's no reason for the durability of the cloak to be any higher than like, standard Kurama chakra.
We clearly see Naruto can enhance his punches with chakra beyond the standard cloak against Toneri so no reason for his durability to be restricted by his cloak.

you also neglected to mention Sasuke taking damage from Shin, with his own weapons while Sasuke was clearly on guard.

No I didn't. I very clearly mentioned that Sasuke was weakened due to using up a lot of chakra before the fight, meaning there's no reason for Sasukes durability to scale to his full power. This is even further supported by base Naruto swatting away several of Shins blades despite his performance being "pathetic" and "pitiful".

a rinneganless Sasuke can still compete with Borushiki

A weaker Borushiki who actively needs to suppress Borutos chakra quantity, and who even base Kawaki reacted to…

and Code

When?

him being out of a bit of chakra and being unquantifiably weaker doesn't change much here.

Actually it does. Him being unquantifiably weakened means his power level was, well, unquantifiable.

that is not a blitz, his speed didn't surpass Shin's reaction, movement, or combat speeds.

He literally flies around Shin and grabs him before Shin even reacts. That very much is a blitz (not that it matters since susanoo > Sasukes base speed. I'm just pointing out Shin doesn't scale to the susanoo)

Shin literally just turned around and got snuck by the Perfect Susano'o

No? How would the gigantic PS sneak up on Shin?

Base Naruto is also FTL+ as he could still compete with Fused Momo somewhat, so this isn't really an anti-feat.

This is a rusty Naruto who doesn't scale to his FM fight self.

too flowery to be used as primary justification IMO,

Flowery? "unparalleled strength" seems pretty straight forward to me. Definitely million times better than harming an unquantifiably weakened Sasuke.

the shin stuff, based on actual feats is probably better, but this can be added as a side justification ig.

The Shin stuff outright ignores any context behind the actual feats and just makes him unquantifiably weaker than Sasuke.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Another issue I forgot to mention in the OP is that Shin harming Sasuke his striking strength as his SS scales to Sakuras and Sakura got clearly hurt by the blades as well. Basically
Shins blades > Sakura ~ Shin.

And even ignoring Sasukes sword chakra enhancements, there's no evidence Shins blades >= Sasukes swords + again,
Blades > Sakura ~ Shin.

So the entire current justification is just full of flaws

 

[Godernet]

I don’t see a reason to assume it would disappear, especially in such a short period of time. Chakra charged weapons are thrown all the time and the chakra doesn't just magically disappear from them.

The sword is also so close to Sasukes hand after it already enters Naruto that it was probably still touching Sasuke as it went in, so all things considered I feel like you would need evidence the chakra disappeared rather than that the chakra was still there.

you're claiming that Sasuke's chakra was still on the blade, so the burden is on you for proof.

Otherwise there's no reason for the durability of the cloak to be any higher than like, standard Kurama chakra.

considering the Kurama Cloak by Boruto era can provide an amp from Base Momo to Fused Momo level, we quite literally accept that it is an 845.9 Exaton level amp rn.

we've also had a lot of statements from Otsutsuki talking about the potency and volume of Kurama's chakra, so it's definitely relative to the other god tiers.

We clearly see Naruto can enhance his punches with chakra beyond the standard cloak against Toneri so no reason for his durability to be restricted by his cloak.

well ofc, because Kurama isn't all of his power, but being off guard doesn't change how durable Kurama's chakra is.

No I didn't. I very clearly mentioned that Sasuke was weakened due to using up a lot of chakra before the fight, meaning there's no reason for Sasukes durability to scale to his full power. This is even further supported by base Naruto swatting away several of Shins blades despite his performance being "pathetic" and "pitiful".

Base Nard is still L5B, and a weakened Sasuke is unquantifiable, so this isn't something that would change his value

When?

when Code still saw him as a threat and when he slashed Code's eye during the TS.

Actually it does. Him being unquantifiably weakened means his power level was, well, unquantifiable.

if someone is L5B, and weaker but not by a quantifiable amount, unless they're near death, we would just say the character at most scales, the value wouldn't change.

you're also forgetting the current L5B Value comes from a literally dying Hagaromo, a slightly rusty Adult Naruto or a kinda fatigued Adult Sasuke are both still stronger than that.

He literally flies around Shin and grabs him before Shin even reacts. That very much is a blitz

This is definitionally not a blitz,

Speed Blitz is the act of one attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving or reacting to them.

It was never that Shin could not perceive him, it was that he looked away and was caught off guard because of it.

for people at FTL to FTL+ speeds, looking away for a fraction of a second will get you caught, it's not about huge speed differences between the two.

No? How would the gigantic PS sneak up on Shin?

by moving to him at faster than light speeds while he's turned away.

This is a rusty Naruto who doesn't scale to his FM fight self.

"rusty" doesn't mean massively weaker.

not by any quantifiable measure that would change the values or make this an anti-feat.

Flowery? "unparalleled strength" seems pretty straight forward to me. Definitely million times better than harming an unquantifiably weakened Sasuke.

having "unparalleled strength" is flowery because we know she's not top 1 in the verse or the strongest of the known characters, so it's at best an exaggeration or at worst just wrong.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Where in the profiles is that mentioned?

here

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

here

What does that have to do with Toneri?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

What does that have to do with Toneri?

that was used to get Kaguya to 88 exatons prior to Net's L5B upgrade

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

that was used to get Kaguya to 88 exatons prior to Net's L5B upgrade

Should have phrased your statement differently then

 

[DavidTPPM]

you're claiming that Sasuke's chakra was still on the blade, so the burden is on you for proof.

No not really. You're claiming Sasukes chakra disappeared from the blade so the burden is on you. Without the evidence that Sasukes chakra disappeared you can't claim it did and therefore can't claim the AP responsible for the feat was Shins.

Without evidence for either side the situation is still greatly in my favor because you are the one trying to claim Shin scales to this feat and you're missing crucial evidence for that.

Which is exactly what my scaling is for. My scaling has evidence for everything. Current scaling is heavily reliant on baseless assumptions.

considering the Kurama Cloak by Boruto era can provide an amp from Base Momo to Fused Momo level, we quite literally accept that it is an 845.9 Exaton level amp rn.

We don't consider a basic kcm2 cloak as a 845.9 exaton amp. We consider Naruto using the 6p+kcm2 amp for ON GUARD NARUTO to be an 845.9 exaton amp. Being offguard is an unquantifiable nerf as otherwise pre-fruit Kaguya would outscale base Isshiki fight Naruto.

we've also had a lot of statements from Otsutsuki talking about the potency and volume of Kurama's chakra, so it's definitely relative to the other god tiers.

When actively utilized sure but this is offguard Naruto. Offguard Narutos durability just doesn't scale anywhere here.

well ofc, because Kurama isn't all of his power, but being off guard doesn't change how durable Kurama's chakra is.

But it changes how durable it can be with chakra enhancements. Juubidaras Juubi chakra cloak legit dropped to dying Obito level just because he was offguard.
Obitos Juubi chakra cloak dropped to sage Naruto level when he got caught offguard.

Chakra cloaks don't make you immune to offguard attacks.

Base Nard is still L5B,

That's doesn't matter. You're scaling Shin to SASUKE and base Naruto being >~ Shin contradicts that scaling. Shin can't scale to full power Naruto or Sasuke if he also scales to base Naruto and weakened Sasuke.

and a weakened Sasuke is unquantifiable

Exactly, so he's unusable for scaling Shin.

, so this isn't something that would change his value

Given that you admitted weakened Sasuke is unquantifiable and Shins current scaling is heavily based around his Sasuke interactions, it actually changes everything.

when Code still saw him as a threat and when he slashed Code's eye during the TS.

Base Code (unquantifiable) got hit in an unknown circumstance (most likely offguard, which is also unquantifiable) into his weak spot (even base kid Boruto could stab Momoshikis eye despite only being like tier 8).

Not only does it mean nothing but this was also Sasuke 6 months after losing the rinnegan so there's no evidence he was as weak or weaker than when he fought Shin.

if someone is L5B, and weaker but not by a quantifiable amount, unless they're near death, we would just say the character at most scales, the value wouldn't change.

That's just outright not true. We would evaluate it on a case by case basis.

In this case the nerf is said and shown to be really big. Base Naruto blocking Shins attack was still considered a "pathetic fighting display". In other words Shins power level is literally considered pathetic to Naruto so scaling him to them is just completely illogical.

you're also forgetting the current L5B Value comes from a literally dying Hagaromo, a slightly rusty Adult Naruto or a kinda fatigued Adult Sasuke are both still stronger than that.

Those are completely unquantifiabe nerfs. And saying they're stronger than that Hagoromo is a baseless assumption.

Which btw I'm not denying they are. My proposed scaling literally gives us
Weakened Sasuke >~ Shin ~ Sakura > 6 paths Naruto > dying Hagoromo.

I'm saying that we don't have any evidence to scale weakened Sasuke anywhere by himself.

This is definitionally not a blitz,

Speed Blitz is the act of one attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving or reacting to them.

It was never that Shin could not perceive him, it was that he looked away and was caught off guard because of it.

First of all, a speed blitz doesn't need to be a perception blitz. The definition clearly states

attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving OR reacting to them.

And Shin didn't get caught offguard. The susanoo flied completely around him in the time it took to turn his head. Meaning the susanoo moved hundreds of meters in the time Shin moved few centimeters.

for people at FTL to FTL+ speeds, looking away for a fraction of a second will get you caught, it's not about huge speed differences between the two.

The values are irrelevant. If Shin is FTL-FTL+ then so is him turning his head around. The susanoo doing what it did just blatantly shows it's much faster than Shin.

by moving to him at faster than light speeds while he's turned away.

You mean while he's moving his head few centimeters at faster than light speeds?

"rusty" doesn't mean massively weaker.

Never said it did. But we can't quantify how much stronger Naruto got between the 2 fights and given Narutoverse standards, it could have been a massive jump. We have no reason to believe SF Nard is anywhere near FM fight Nard.

not by any quantifiable measure that would change the values or make this an anti-feat.

It being unquantifiably literally goes against Shins ratings.

having "unparalleled strength" is flowery because we know she's not top 1 in the verse or the strongest of the known characters,

The statement was made during Sakura Hiden. The top 5 known alive characters at that point were Naruto, Sasuke, Toneri, Sakura, and maybe like Kakashi.
We didn't know about Momoshiki, Kinshiki, or any of the inner Kara members yet. So Sakura having top 1 physical strength is absolutely possible and not contradicted by anything.

If anything, her damaging Kaguya in the war further supports this statement.

so it's at best an exaggeration or at worst just wrong.

Completely baseless assumptions. Sakura being top 1 physically hardest hitting known character at that point is narratively consistent and not contradicted by anything.