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We could put a censor bar around Mara's head...
Okay, it's best to remove it.
Okay, it's best to remove it.
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Shin Megami Tensei Discussion thread
- Thread starter MagiSinbad
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Also: Odin appears to be High-Ranking Member of the Polytheism Alliance in SMT IV Final, so I doubt he's that weak. We could have Low 2-C as Lowballing.
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He is also one of the two Mini-Bosses you need to fight in IMAGINE to face-off against Metatron, not sure that counts anything.
He is also not tha lower in stats than other characters in the SMT Series:
https://gyazo.com/5ff97a30e2faab7bb6203da350939e1c Odin
https://gyazo.com/c66d9bef4971c8347e6aa11dbced72ce Ishtar
https://gyazo.com/cf1bda5ad3862cfef96921e4d456599a Michael (Might be inconsistency)
https://gyazo.com/a7cf80888b84c4f60cbc39f20bc87e5c Odin in SMT 3
https://gyazo.com/b46e4eb731358ad6af68f728e4f8a97d Michael in SMT 3
He is also not tha lower in stats than other characters in the SMT Series:
https://gyazo.com/5ff97a30e2faab7bb6203da350939e1c Odin
https://gyazo.com/c66d9bef4971c8347e6aa11dbced72ce Ishtar
https://gyazo.com/cf1bda5ad3862cfef96921e4d456599a Michael (Might be inconsistency)
https://gyazo.com/a7cf80888b84c4f60cbc39f20bc87e5c Odin in SMT 3
https://gyazo.com/b46e4eb731358ad6af68f728e4f8a97d Michael in SMT 3
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Until the FINAL english version come out, we have no idea how strong Odin isMatthew Schroeder said:
Also, stat doesnt mean anything. Their stats can be change from this game to the others game. We need specific proof =3=
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So far, our SMT hierachy :
God tier :
YHVH (True form)
Top tier (At least 2-A) :
YHVH ( Goldie head form)
Satan
Lucifer
Merkabah
Mem Aleph
Demiurge
Mid tier (2-A) :
Baal
Beezulbub
Metatron
Hindu Gods
Michael
Sandalphon
Asura
Kagutsuchi (The origin of Multiversal SMT, lol)
Low tier :
Ishtar
Odin
Mara ( Sombody please remove his pic oAo)
God tier :
YHVH (True form)
Top tier (At least 2-A) :
YHVH ( Goldie head form)
Satan
Lucifer
Merkabah
Mem Aleph
Demiurge
Mid tier (2-A) :
Baal
Beezulbub
Metatron
Hindu Gods
Michael
Sandalphon
Asura
Kagutsuchi (The origin of Multiversal SMT, lol)
Low tier :
Ishtar
Odin
Mara ( Sombody please remove his pic oAo)
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Where do Demi-Fiend and Aleph fit in all this? owo
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I think i'll make a protag/Sidekick list based off Magi's Demon list just to make things clear.
DeSu2 Tier:
Hibiki.
God tier :
Flynn (IV:FINAL)
Nanashi (Possibly)
Top tier :
Aleph/Hiroko
Overlord Abel
Demi-Fiend
Raidou
Nakajima/Yumiko(Game)
Shujinko (SJ)
Serph/Sera
Kyouji / Rei Reiho
Kazuya (Neutral Hero)/Yuka(Heroine)
Mid tier :
Tatsuya
Maya
Nakajima/Yumiko (Novels)
Hacker/Nemissa (Non canon)
Low tier :
Naoya
Makoto
Hacker/Nemissa (Canon)
Yu
Aigis
DeSu2 Tier:
Hibiki.
God tier :
Flynn (IV:FINAL)
Nanashi (Possibly)
Top tier :
Aleph/Hiroko
Overlord Abel
Demi-Fiend
Raidou
Nakajima/Yumiko(Game)
Shujinko (SJ)
Serph/Sera
Kyouji / Rei Reiho
Kazuya (Neutral Hero)/Yuka(Heroine)
Mid tier :
Tatsuya
Maya
Nakajima/Yumiko (Novels)
Hacker/Nemissa (Non canon)
Low tier :
Naoya
Makoto
Hacker/Nemissa (Canon)
Yu
Aigis
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This seems reasonableõ║║õ┐«þ¥à said:
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i only use the mainline demons as the powerscailing source for the verses. In Dante's case, i dont think there will be another SMT game that would "feature Dante from Devil may cry series" (Maybe we will have "Feature Bayonnatte from Bayonnatte series" ,lol :3 )õ║║õ┐«þ¥à said:
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Anyway, Nice YHVH page Matt :3
But... "Strongest being in the main Shin Megami Tensei Series" I think THe Great Will would probally above him so you might wanna change that statement o3o
Also... about Serph 's page, i was try to avoid from create any Digital Devil Saga page because some people said that Higher Dimensions do exist in DDS asthe higher reality where the lower beings cannot percieve the higher one. From everyone's line there should be 4 upper level of higher reality, this would put Serph as the strongest SMT Protagonist. But i'm not sure about this
But... "Strongest being in the main Shin Megami Tensei Series" I think THe Great Will would probally above him so you might wanna change that statement o3o
Also... about Serph 's page, i was try to avoid from create any Digital Devil Saga page because some people said that Higher Dimensions do exist in DDS asthe higher reality where the lower beings cannot percieve the higher one. From everyone's line there should be 4 upper level of higher reality, this would put Serph as the strongest SMT Protagonist. But i'm not sure about this
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Final words : i will leave this wiki for a long time (University exam, of course) so i will leave this verse and this discussion thread to you guy , take care of our SMT verse okay ? :3
Make sure it's not turn out to be a mess okay >.>
Make sure it's not turn out to be a mess okay >.>
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Ah... I will do my best.MagiSinbad said:
Good luck on your exams!
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Okay, So first Hitoshura/Raihou, now, MagiSinbad. For some times, we'll have to take care of this @ Matthew Schroeder.
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MagiSinbad said:
Good luck on the exams magi
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From my understanding YHVH is Omnipresent within the timeline the game takes place, justified in that he's the "Supreme Being" and ruler of that Universe.
Mem Aleph I honestly don't know.
Mem Aleph I honestly don't know.
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Ah, got it. It's because Kagutsuchi, one of his Avatars, is omnipresent within the Amala Multiverse, being everywhere at once and creating and destroying billions of universes every second just by existing.Fnckpo said:
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Mem Aleph is the one that i dont know about, havent play strange journey yetFnckpo said:
For YHVH I think he's more like Nigh-omnipresent
From what the other senpais has told me, I think it was from Lucifer's line in SMT 2, where he stated that YHVH "Also exist everywhere". But i only have finished the chaos route in SMT 2 and havent seen this statement yet, it's probally in Law or Neutral route.
The other is what Matt just say, Kagutsuchi's existence was so great that it emcompass entire Amala multiverse, making him exist everywhere in Amala. In my opinion, if YHVH was omnipresent, he can only omnipresent in Amala multiverse.
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I only have a little time so i will make this quick
First, Matt, Thor is definitely NOT Chaos.
In SMT 1, he serve YHVH as his Iron fist. In SMT 1, Thor became the Thorman, the president of the United State and try to destroy the Tokyo because it's full of demon, some of them was gonna summon Lucifer on the earth
Second, i really doubt he's 2-C. Because he need the nuclear bomb to destroy the Tokyo, if he's stronger than that then there is no reason for him to use the bomb
Also, speaking of Thor :3
First, Matt, Thor is definitely NOT Chaos.
In SMT 1, he serve YHVH as his Iron fist. In SMT 1, Thor became the Thorman, the president of the United State and try to destroy the Tokyo because it's full of demon, some of them was gonna summon Lucifer on the earth
Second, i really doubt he's 2-C. Because he need the nuclear bomb to destroy the Tokyo, if he's stronger than that then there is no reason for him to use the bomb
Also, speaking of Thor :3
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Well, the Multiversal Shin Megami Tensei only first appeared in Nocturne, almost a decade after SMT I...
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@Fnckpo Mem Aleph created the Schwartzwelt, Polaris and DeSu 2 cast recreated the world as they pleased, and let's not start about YHVH....
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YHVH basically created lots of Universes and rules them, created most of the Demons (including Lucifer and Satan) & is above Mem Aleph at his peak.
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Regarding power of SMT
There are a large number of characters in SMT that have the power to wrap the reality. And No, there are no reality wraper in SMT until SMT 3 Nocturne.
The very first reality wraper in SMT is Kagutsuchi, who responsible for the Conception which occured in billion universes at the same time, what is Conception ? This . Good enough to be called reality wrap yet ? :3 there are more, Kagutsuchi later has show that he has Conceptual Manipulation. After a Reason holder confront Kagutsuchi, he will lend that Reason Holder the power to rewrite the very concepts of the universe based on whatever Reason the user held.
Various universe born from the Reason (Took these from the wiki)
Shijima universe : a universe where the concepts of conflicts, destruction, self, passion, inviduality. A perfect world where everyone is equal to God
Yosuga universe : a universe where only the strong can make the rules and the weaks has to obey uncondictional to the strongs
Musubi : a universe where everyone can define their own damn parad. How it work and how it's develope, it's depend on their own decision
In the end of Nocturne, it's turn out that Kagutsuchi is also the concept of time as well, since after his death, the concept of time itself was destroyed
Next, is the reality wrapers in Devil Survivor 2.
The Akashic Record, a system that encompass entire the multiverse (No, not Amala multiverse) has the power to rewrite the past, future, present of entire multiverse as how the Administrators want. The biggest boss in Devil Survivor 2 (Canopus) have the power to control the fundamental Prime Factors (Heat, Gravity, Space and time) that contructed entire multiverse. In the end of Devil Survivor 2, entire cast had absorbed Canopus's power and gained the control over his Prime Factors. So in the end of DeSu2, you have over 12 High Multiversal reality wrapers
That's the top tier
For the lower tiers, we have Nyalarthotep and Philemon. Nyarlathotep can turn any persuado information ( in other word, the rumors) into the reality, no matter how impossible it is, if it's a rumor, then Nyarlathotep can make it become true. This may be considered as a NLF, but since that's how Nyarlathotep works, we can assume he can only do this on the Universal scale.
In the end of the Innoncent Sin, Philemon gave the power of CU (Which is Philemon and Nyarlathotep's power) to the Tat-chan's team to reset entire universe, causing a the birth of a new universe
There are more but that's what i can say for now
I See, thanks. Uh, can someone explain to me what the manipulation of souls in SMT? I saw it on Metatron page.
It's a very common power of EVERY DEMONs in SMT, all of them can punch the ghosts in the face, damage them, eat them, and some how, the demons with the light magic can instantly "Kill" the ghost-type demons. If i has to say what kind of soul manipulation do they got, then it would be soul Destruction
There are a large number of characters in SMT that have the power to wrap the reality. And No, there are no reality wraper in SMT until SMT 3 Nocturne.
The very first reality wraper in SMT is Kagutsuchi, who responsible for the Conception which occured in billion universes at the same time, what is Conception ? This . Good enough to be called reality wrap yet ? :3 there are more, Kagutsuchi later has show that he has Conceptual Manipulation. After a Reason holder confront Kagutsuchi, he will lend that Reason Holder the power to rewrite the very concepts of the universe based on whatever Reason the user held.
Various universe born from the Reason (Took these from the wiki)
Shijima universe : a universe where the concepts of conflicts, destruction, self, passion, inviduality. A perfect world where everyone is equal to God
Yosuga universe : a universe where only the strong can make the rules and the weaks has to obey uncondictional to the strongs
Musubi : a universe where everyone can define their own damn parad. How it work and how it's develope, it's depend on their own decision
In the end of Nocturne, it's turn out that Kagutsuchi is also the concept of time as well, since after his death, the concept of time itself was destroyed
Next, is the reality wrapers in Devil Survivor 2.
The Akashic Record, a system that encompass entire the multiverse (No, not Amala multiverse) has the power to rewrite the past, future, present of entire multiverse as how the Administrators want. The biggest boss in Devil Survivor 2 (Canopus) have the power to control the fundamental Prime Factors (Heat, Gravity, Space and time) that contructed entire multiverse. In the end of Devil Survivor 2, entire cast had absorbed Canopus's power and gained the control over his Prime Factors. So in the end of DeSu2, you have over 12 High Multiversal reality wrapers
That's the top tier
For the lower tiers, we have Nyalarthotep and Philemon. Nyarlathotep can turn any persuado information ( in other word, the rumors) into the reality, no matter how impossible it is, if it's a rumor, then Nyarlathotep can make it become true. This may be considered as a NLF, but since that's how Nyarlathotep works, we can assume he can only do this on the Universal scale.
In the end of the Innoncent Sin, Philemon gave the power of CU (Which is Philemon and Nyarlathotep's power) to the Tat-chan's team to reset entire universe, causing a the birth of a new universe
There are more but that's what i can say for now
I See, thanks. Uh, can someone explain to me what the manipulation of souls in SMT? I saw it on Metatron page.
It's a very common power of EVERY DEMONs in SMT, all of them can punch the ghosts in the face, damage them, eat them, and some how, the demons with the light magic can instantly "Kill" the ghost-type demons. If i has to say what kind of soul manipulation do they got, then it would be soul Destruction
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Well, the Multiversal Shin Megami Tensei only first appeared in Nocturne, almost a decade after SMT I...
That doesnt change anything, if he doesnt has a power scailing feat nor a good on-screen feat, i'm affraid he gonna get downgrade to Unknow
If i has enough free time, i will make a Belial but i will put him at City level because his best feat is casting a illusion spell on entire Roppongi city, despite the fact that he's one of the strong demon of Lucifer
That doesnt change anything, if he doesnt has a power scailing feat nor a good on-screen feat, i'm affraid he gonna get downgrade to Unknow
If i has enough free time, i will make a Belial but i will put him at City level because his best feat is casting a illusion spell on entire Roppongi city, despite the fact that he's one of the strong demon of Lucifer
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@ MagiSinbad It's good to see you back 
Belial? which game will you use as a reference?
In your opinion, what would be his tier if we were to use him as Uncle Red of DeSu2 and Raidou Kuzunoha 2?
Belial? which game will you use as a reference?
In your opinion, what would be his tier if we were to use him as Uncle Red of DeSu2 and Raidou Kuzunoha 2?
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Shucks. I hope Thor shows up in SMT IV: Final and can be scaled to Odin... Or whatever, really, not that big a lost.
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I remember posting this a while ago but I'm pretty sure it never got resolved
"I'm still not familiar with his battle with YHVH and his power. I mean, is his profile based on his own power or because of his weapons and the demons he controls? If the latter, perhaps there should be a separation for his base level and when he uses his "equipment". Again, very new and unfamiliar with everything. Just wanted to clarify somthing bugging me about Aleph. "
I also found some stuff about him being a type of artificial human and that he was aged 10 years for every 24 hours during his incubation. Also on tv tropes, he's labelled as a badass normal (a person without powers/superpowers yet still badass) cause he doesn't use magic and probably because his summoning is done through the COMP device on his arm.
Again, I am still very new and inexperienced, so I'm sorry if I got any of this wrong and wasted anyone's time
"I'm still not familiar with his battle with YHVH and his power. I mean, is his profile based on his own power or because of his weapons and the demons he controls? If the latter, perhaps there should be a separation for his base level and when he uses his "equipment". Again, very new and unfamiliar with everything. Just wanted to clarify somthing bugging me about Aleph. "
I also found some stuff about him being a type of artificial human and that he was aged 10 years for every 24 hours during his incubation. Also on tv tropes, he's labelled as a badass normal (a person without powers/superpowers yet still badass) cause he doesn't use magic and probably because his summoning is done through the COMP device on his arm.
Again, I am still very new and inexperienced, so I'm sorry if I got any of this wrong and wasted anyone's time
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MagiSinbad It's good to see you back
Haiz... i dont have much time so i dont think i can give you guy much help =3= (If i fail the exam, my laifu will be OVER !!! OAO )
Belial? which game will you use as a reference?
In your opinion, what would be his tier if we were to use him as Uncle Red of DeSu2 and Raidou Kuzunoha 2?
SMT 1 feat : casting a city level illusion spell on the Roppongi city
DeSu2 feat : fought the DeSu2 cast
For the second feat, the DeSu2 cast didnt do much before they got the Prime Factors so fight with them and survived would be a city level feat
I have no idea about Belial in Radou's series. I'm still stuck in the middle of Souless Army
Shucks. I hope Thor shows up in SMT IV: Final and can be scaled to Odin... Or whatever, really, not that big a lost.
Well, we currently have several tier 2-Cs and a shitload number of tier 2-As and "At least 2A" so yep, we're still okay :3
Haiz... i dont have much time so i dont think i can give you guy much help =3= (If i fail the exam, my laifu will be OVER !!! OAO )
Belial? which game will you use as a reference?
In your opinion, what would be his tier if we were to use him as Uncle Red of DeSu2 and Raidou Kuzunoha 2?
SMT 1 feat : casting a city level illusion spell on the Roppongi city
DeSu2 feat : fought the DeSu2 cast
For the second feat, the DeSu2 cast didnt do much before they got the Prime Factors so fight with them and survived would be a city level feat
I have no idea about Belial in Radou's series. I'm still stuck in the middle of Souless Army
Shucks. I hope Thor shows up in SMT IV: Final and can be scaled to Odin... Or whatever, really, not that big a lost.
Well, we currently have several tier 2-Cs and a shitload number of tier 2-As and "At least 2A" so yep, we're still okay :3
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"I'm still not familiar with his battle with YHVH and his power. I mean, is his profile based on his own power or because of his weapons and the demons he controls? If the latter, perhaps there should be a separation for his base level and when he uses his "equipment". Again, very new and unfamiliar with everything. Just wanted to clarify somthing bugging me about Aleph. "
I'm pretty sure you're talking about Aleph's previous profile, you can re-check his profile if you want. He's more like a physical fighter than a mage or esper, AND i'm pretty sure that there are no Reality Wraping nor time manipulation in SMT 1
For "his true power"( Yeah, PHYSICAL power), allow me quote some demon's comment about Aleph
Astaroth :I guess you're not an ordinary human after all. Satan or Messiah, i dont care whatever you are. With your power, please, you can do it ( the "Do it" line refering to slay YHVH because it's was YHVH that Astaroth has became a demon)
Lucifer : Still, while not the true YHVH, he was still extremely powerful in his own right. How it's that you were able to defeat him. Could it be that you're Satan, God's instrument of destruction, judgement, retribution ?
There are alot more, most of them are about how mighty and powerful Aleph is. So yeah, it's his own power
I also found some stuff about him being a type of artificial human and that he was aged 10 years for every 24 hours during his incubation. Also on tv tropes, he's labelled as a badass normal (a person without powers/superpowers yet still badass) cause he doesn't use magic and probably because his summoning is done through the COMP device on his arm.
It's true, Aleph in SMT 2 has no power than summoning Demon, thus, which gave him the tiltle "Badass normal"
Again, I am still very new and inexperienced, so I'm sorry if I got any of this wrong and wasted anyone's time
Nah, dont worry. It's our job to explain for the new comer about the Shin Megami Tensei series ^__^ if you look above of the comment section, you will see that you're not the only one who ask the question o3o
I'm pretty sure you're talking about Aleph's previous profile, you can re-check his profile if you want. He's more like a physical fighter than a mage or esper, AND i'm pretty sure that there are no Reality Wraping nor time manipulation in SMT 1
For "his true power"( Yeah, PHYSICAL power), allow me quote some demon's comment about Aleph
Astaroth :I guess you're not an ordinary human after all. Satan or Messiah, i dont care whatever you are. With your power, please, you can do it ( the "Do it" line refering to slay YHVH because it's was YHVH that Astaroth has became a demon)
Lucifer : Still, while not the true YHVH, he was still extremely powerful in his own right. How it's that you were able to defeat him. Could it be that you're Satan, God's instrument of destruction, judgement, retribution ?
There are alot more, most of them are about how mighty and powerful Aleph is. So yeah, it's his own power
I also found some stuff about him being a type of artificial human and that he was aged 10 years for every 24 hours during his incubation. Also on tv tropes, he's labelled as a badass normal (a person without powers/superpowers yet still badass) cause he doesn't use magic and probably because his summoning is done through the COMP device on his arm.
It's true, Aleph in SMT 2 has no power than summoning Demon, thus, which gave him the tiltle "Badass normal"
Again, I am still very new and inexperienced, so I'm sorry if I got any of this wrong and wasted anyone's time
Nah, dont worry. It's our job to explain for the new comer about the Shin Megami Tensei series ^__^ if you look above of the comment section, you will see that you're not the only one who ask the question o3o
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Thanks MagiSinbad, you really helped me out. If you need help with anything, I'm here. Again thanks!
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demi-fiends best feat is beating kagtusuchi who can destroy and create billions of universes at one so his tier is at least 2-AFnckpo said:
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