Shibai Ōtsutsuki Profile Creation

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Nice job with the profile

My opinion about this current topic is I don't think Low 2-C or 2-C is warranted for Shibai, but I think the statements are plausible for HDI so "possibly Higher-Dimensional Existence".

You could interpret the statement of Shibai ascending to a higher dimension as merely him moving from one place to another, but at the same time the fact that his body was discarded and Shikamaru mentions "God is meant to be a flawless being" infers that the hypothesis here is Shibai attaining a different state of being entirely, and that would be different from being a physical being, or even an astral being like Hagoromo. So it isn't just Shibai going somewhere, but Shibai also changing fundamentally as well.

 

[Robo432343]

aside from those vague statements what is something 4-D shibai actually did

 

[KaydeeX]

aside from those vague statements what is something 4-D shibai actually did

summoning lightning without hand signs

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

It’s 100 percent correlated to his countless devouring of chakra fruits and evolution. It’s literally the plot and why Isshiki wants Code to keep devouring chakra fruits.

so what?
repeating the same point does not make your argument better


0 correlation on top of an already debunked premise

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

so what?
repeating the same point does not make your argument better


0 correlation on top of an already debunked premise

We can agree to disagree, but I provided evidence there is explicit correlation

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

We can agree to disagree, but I provided evidence there is explicit correlation

0 scans provided
0 dialogues quoted
non coherent reasoning


If I ask you to prove the connection youll fail, you also ignored the actual narrative reasoning

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

0 scans provided
0 dialogues quoted
non coherent reasoning


If I ask you to prove the connection youll fail, you also ignored the actual narrative reasoning

Scans are in the blog in the OP I don’t need to read the series to you either

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Scans are in the blog in the OP I don’t need to read the series to you either

Your claim

Your job to back up your claims
Refuse : concession accepted

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Your claim

Your job to back up your claims
Refuse : concession accepted

I uh didn’t refuse anything

and no amount of you pretending I did refuse will change that

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

arc cannot make a correlation between two points hes made
he refuses to address what the actual canon says
and denies not showing scans LMAOOOOOO

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

arc cannot make a correlation between two points hes made
he refuses to address what the actual canon says
and denies not showing scans LMAOOOOOO

I quite literally pointed out where the scans were. Your inability to click on page 1 of this thread and open the blog is your issue not mine.

No one believes you when you just keep screaming "Arc didn't prove his point!" Stop whining.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I quite literally pointed out where the scans were. Your inability to click on page 1 of this thread and open the blog is your issue not mine.

No one believes you when you just keep screaming "Arc didn't prove his point!" Stop whining.

your specific claim needs to be backed up with a relevant scan
not my job to hunt down a whole profile worth of imgur scans to find stuff that backs up your nonexistent meta


hell your argument isnt even on his sandbox cuz you made it up on the spot

+No one is whining

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

your specific claim needs to be backed up with a relevant scan
not my job to hunt down a whole profile worth of imgur scans to find stuff that backs up your nonexistent meta


hell your argument isnt even on his sandbox cuz you made it up on the spot

+No one is whining

Read his AP section... I don't need to copy paste from the OP contrary to what you believe

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Read his AP section... I don't need to copy paste from the OP contrary to what you believe

I've reread it several times, you showed me a completely different argument


I have addressed what it is in the OP already, Your reasoning of chakra overdose wasnt there at all,
hence me saying its made up on the spot.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I've reread it several times, you showed me a completely different argument


I have addressed what it is in the OP already, Your reasoning of chakra overdose wasnt there at all,
hence me saying its made up on the spot.

Uh aight, well it's clear with the way you're misrepresenting my argument, that we aren't getting anywhere here. My interest in interacting with you is waning, so I'll agree to disagree and let Deceived apply this when he gets the time since it has enough votes to go through.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Uh aight, well it's clear with the way you're misrepresenting my argument, that we aren't getting anywhere here. My interest in interacting with you is waning, so I'll agree to disagree and let Deceived apply this when he gets the time since it has enough votes to go through.

I'm not misrepresenting you at all, you can go ahead and see your argument and point me to where I am doing so (spoilers he cant)

but it seems the votes have been decided regardless of the debate so whatevs

 

[Nierre]

Ghost what exactly is your argument? If you could make a TL;DR with scans if possible so I can actually verify what ur saying. TL;DR but descriptive

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Ghost what exactly is your argument? If you could make a TL;DR with scans if possible so I can actually verify what ur saying. TL;DR but descriptive

bet, initially these were my counterarguments, the HDE stuff seems to be relying on specific wording which the opposers better understand so I see understand if thats dismissed

I still stand on the opinion that the evidence and arguments for base shibai does not qualify for uzuhiko or etso, a few meaningless back and forth happened and then we got to arc and my argument

and then we had a back and forth where I kept telling him more or less the same thing that
1)its a new argument not present in the op
2)it does not line in with what the narrative says
3)narrative debunks arc proven by scans, he does not address that
4)arc refuses to prove a correlation that even if what he said was true that it justifies decieveds ap stuff
5)arc refuses to show scans and tells me its already in his op (i assume the sandbox) and then then I tell him i did read the op's ap parts several times, not finding his unique argument that conveniently showed up today and not before and he tells me he doesnt wanna continue and here we are
6) Idk if I brought this up but arcs line of reasoning only supports shibai getting etso's per sec value, not full scale ETSO or uzuhiko

 

[Damage3245]

Shibai isn’t scaling for being merely massively above Kaguya. He scales because he absorbed so much chakra energy and power that he couldn’t maintain physical form. Whereas the ETSO could maintain physical form. Indicating that Shibai soared to greater heights than that jutsu explicitly.

It's been a while since I refreshed myself on Shibai lore exactly, but it was stated that he couldn't maintain physical form? I thought he just chose to ascend to a higher plane of existence one day.

 

[Samlex1234]

It's been a while since I refreshed myself on Shibai lore exactly, but it was stated that he couldn't maintain physical form? I thought he just chose to ascend to a higher plane of existence one day.

Nope it was never stated and yes the information we have verbatimly says

“It’s a hypothesis that Shibai deliberately discarded his body”

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It's been a while since I refreshed myself on Shibai lore exactly, but it was stated that he couldn't maintain physical form? I thought he just chose to ascend to a higher plane of existence one day.

So the TLDR is that we know Otsutsuki need to keep devouring countless chakra fruits (amassing energy and power) such that they can reach a point where they can ascend right. Meaning that Shibai reached a point of "enough energy/nigh enough energy to ascend" prior to ascending himself. Whereas someone like Kaguya who had all that IT chakra inside her before expelling the ETSO out of her body, was not capable of performing any such ascension. Hence, we arrive at the conclusion of Shibai > ETSO.

Couldn't is poor wording on my part, I can see where that created some confusion. The key point of focus is that Shibai had enough or was at the precipice of possessing enough power to ascend, whereas ETSO level power isn't.

 

[Samlex1234]

So the TLDR is that we know Otsutsuki need to keep devouring countless chakra fruits (amassing energy and power) such that they can reach a point where they can ascend right. Meaning that Shibai reached a point of "enough energy/nigh enough energy to ascend" prior to ascending himself. Whereas someone like Kaguya who had all that IT chakra inside her before expelling the ETSO out of her body, was not capable of performing any such ascension. Hence, we arrive at the conclusion of Shibai > ETSO.

Couldn't is poor wording on my part, I can see where that created some confusion. The key point of focus is that Shibai had enough or was at the precipice of possessing enough power to ascend, whereas ETSO level power isn't.

Where did you get this argument from

 

[Damage3245]

I see where you're coming from now Arc, but I think we may have too little information to work with for that conclusion. We don't know that it is solely a requirement of raw power; there could be some jutsu or method required to achieve ascension too rather than it being an innate process that anyone can just will themselves to do if they had enough chakra.

Not to mention (getting a bit hypothetical here) we don't know for certain if Kaguya would even want to ascend to a higher dimension if the means were available for her to do so, or that it's the kind of thing you can just do mid-fight.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Where did you get this argument from

Deceived and I talked about it in vc like months ago

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

your existence by default cannot be peerless if its contextual. and we are not told specifically that shibai is only peerless in a specific category.

yes it does because one character is quite literally a fruit away while the other and has no feats or statements to imply he is, and we know the progression of power is linear with the consumption of fruits (the more you eat, the stronger you get; though the power that each fruit gives does vary)and if the ascension is the apex of power then being one fruit away would by default be above one that isnt.

both goku and a random house cat would be massively above a microbe, this doesnt mean they comparable.

its not being shoved under the rug, its not being addressed because its not relevant to the CRT nor am i here to address potentially dozens of peoples arguments who may no longer even hold those same arguments and risk straw manning them, the point to take away from this isnt that A cant be > B, its that people may disagree with the method of getting from A to B and that generalizing every counter argument as the same is incorrect.

why would UES apply to Shibai

pardon me for missing this

1) I accept gods are peerless in a general sense, that would help you be above per sec stuff maybe but not full scale stuff? given the wikis ultra conservative nature where everything requires overwhelming amount of evidence the proper stance would be that his strongest jutsu>etso per second
not that he will tank something that takes 15 years to charge
2)peerless wasnt the original justification for this btw, when I used CTRL+F on the sandbox only time that word popped up was the intelligence section
the argument was power enhancement via fruits, the first thing you see behind the word planet level, isshiki has that, he had power enhancements from countless fruits
3)why did you call it bad? if you dont wanna deal with that here why call it bad and not just ignore it outright?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I see where you're coming from now Arc, but I think we may have too little information to work with for that conclusion. We don't know that it is solely a requirement of raw power; there could be some jutsu or method required to achieve ascension too rather than it being an innate process that anyone can just will themselves to do if they had enough chakra.

Not to mention (getting a bit hypothetical here) we don't know for certain if Kaguya would even want to ascend to a higher dimension if the means were available for her to do so, or that it's the kind of thing you can just do mid-fight.

Yeah I can see that, I don't agree with the Kaguya point though. It is made rather clear that all Otsutsuki strive to ascend, and Kaguya's entirely purpose was to consume chakra (it's why she backstabbed Isshiki and wanted all the chakra on earth back). So I think it's safe to assume she follows the Otsutsuki credo.

I don't think the evidence or lack of evidence we have currently debunks the notion of him at least "likely" scaling above it for the provided reasoning, since a major component in Otsutsuki ascension is just getting more power. Like they're all power hungry aliens who want to amass more power until the get strong enough to ascend. Someone mentioned this earlier, but I guess you could scrutinize moreso whether this should apply to physicals or not vs just applicable to his Shinjutsu. I'm fine extending the charity to it, but I can absolutely see validity in having it as a partial rating, or only comparing jutsu to jutsu, etc etc until we get more information. That's something that I'm fine conceding to staff vote for.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

So the TLDR is that we know Otsutsuki need to keep devouring countless chakra fruits (amassing energy and power) such that they can reach a point where they can ascend right. Meaning that Shibai reached a point of "enough energy/nigh enough energy to ascend" prior to ascending himself. Whereas someone like Kaguya who had all that IT chakra inside her before expelling the ETSO out of her body, was not capable of performing any such ascension. Hence, we arrive at the conclusion of Shibai > ETSO.

Couldn't is poor wording on my part, I can see where that created some confusion. The key point of focus is that Shibai had enough or was at the precipice of possessing enough power to ascend, whereas ETSO level power isn't.

it's very odd to me you claim this argument is several months old but still misphrase it to this degree and need to correct yourself

Also as I said before this would only support the per sec value not 4B or 5B
Also this argument supports shibai being able to output the per sec value in terms of ninjutsu as youre only arguing he has greater quantity not physical stats, as kaguya kept her own etso powers without scaling to them directly

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah I can see that, I don't agree with the Kaguya point though. It is made rather clear that all Otsutsuki strive to ascend, and Kaguya's entirely purpose was to consume chakra (it's why she backstabbed Isshiki and wanted all the chakra on earth back). So I think it's safe to assume she follows the Otsutsuki credo.

I don't think the evidence or lack of evidence we have currently debunks the notion of him at least "likely" scaling above it for the provided reasoning, since a major component in Otsutsuki ascension is just getting more power. Like they're all power hungry aliens who want to amass more power until the get strong enough to ascend. Someone mentioned this earlier, but I guess you could scrutinize moreso whether this should apply to physicals or not vs just applicable to his Shinjutsu. I'm fine extending the charity to it, but I can absolutely see validity in having it as a partial rating, or only comparing jutsu to jutsu, etc etc until we get more information. That's something that I'm fine conceding to staff vote for.

I'm not opposed to a likely/possibly rating like it was before.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'm not opposed to a likely/possibly rating like it was before.

Yeah I'm chill with that too lol not that my vote matters here, but you get what I mean.

Also as I said before this would only support the per sec value not 4B or 5B
Also this argument supports shibai being able to output the per sec value in terms of ninjutsu as youre only arguing he has greater quantity not physical stats, as kaguya kept her own etso powers without scaling to them directly

Kaguya scaling physically to the ETSO is an entirely separate can of worms, and no she doesn't have the same logic to apply as Shibai, also I'm not going to derail this thread with Kaguya ~ ETSO talk. This also doesn't support only the per second value, but if you hold a more conservative scaling for Shibai that's fine, end of the day we both in some flavor have Shibai above the ETSO, I just believe the higher end interpretation is just as valid.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Yeah I'm chill with that too lol not that my vote matters here, but you get what I mean.


Kaguya scaling physically to the ETSO is an entirely separate can of worms, and no she doesn't have the same logic to apply as Shibai, also I'm not going to derail this thread with Kaguya ~ ETSO talk. This also doesn't support only the per second value, but if you hold a more conservative scaling for Shibai that's fine, end of the day we both in some flavor have Shibai above the ETSO, I just believe the higher end interpretation is just as valid.

I'm not reopening said can of worms, everyone here is at peace with her not scaling to the jutsu
im saying since she doesnt get it in her physicals he shouldnt have it in his physicals solely based of posessing more quantity of chakra


im not saying kaguya should get etso physicals do not misquote me

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'm not reopening said can of worms, everyone here is at peace with her not scaling to the jutsu

Good.

im saying since she doesnt get it in her physicals he shouldnt have it in his physicals solely based of posessing more quantity of chakra

It's not based solely on having a higher quantity. But if you're conceding it's fine for him to scale to it with his own jutsu instead of his physical strikes, I'm fine with that interpretation so I won't press further.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Good.


It's not based solely on having a higher quantity. But if you're conceding it's fine for him to scale to it with his own jutsu instead of his physical strikes, I'm fine with that interpretation so I won't press further.

not the full scale jutsu, just the per sec value is what im cool with, he'll still be tier 4 tho

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

not the full scale jutsu, just the per sec value is what im cool with, he'll still be tier 4 tho

Aight I disagree

 

[Godernet]

Isshiki told Code to cultivate a God Tree to absorb all life on earth, and then absorb countless worlds to eventually become a peerless existence, or a God. Depicting an image that is strikingly similar to Shibai.

All of the chakra Kaguya would have needed for the hypothetical fully formed ETSO was achievable through Earth and it’s life forms.

We can draw a pretty blatantly conclusion from Isshiki that an Otsutsuki God > the energy of a single planet and its life. Especially since earth was directly used in his statement.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Isshiki told Code to cultivate a God Tree to absorb all life on earth, and then absorb countless worlds to eventually become a peerless existence, or a God. Depicting an image that is strikingly similar to Shibai.

All of the chakra Kaguya would have needed for the hypothetical fully formed ETSO was achievable through Earth and it’s life forms.

We can draw a pretty blatantly conclusion from Isshiki that an Otsutsuki God > the energy of a single planet and its life. Especially since earth was directly used in his statement.

well


1) shibai in theory could have more chakra in his body than kaguya+earth, its not provable that all of it is sent out within a single second
2) earth is an outlier planet
its an established abnormality with far greater chakra reserves than a standard planet to the point of making momoshiki who devoured planets before look at it with excitement, making him hungry for that worlds chakra

it's mass was grand enough to cause cracks in space too, most planets dont do that at all (I doubt even stars do)

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I've changed my mind

I align with Shadow's reasons
I am okay with Shibai getting full on 4B physicals
being peerless would mean you are untouchable by others including established ninjutsu and dwarf them by a massive massive amount

 

[Samlex1234]

Isshiki told Code to cultivate a God Tree to absorb all life on earth, and then absorb countless worlds to eventually become a peerless existence, or a God. Depicting an image that is strikingly similar to Shibai.

All of the chakra Kaguya would have needed for the hypothetical fully formed ETSO was achievable through Earth and it’s life forms.

We can draw a pretty blatantly conclusion from Isshiki that an Otsutsuki God > the energy of a single planet and its life. Especially since earth was directly used in his statement.

Hmm, are you saying based on Isshiki’s statement, even after code absorbs all the energy on Earth, it still wouldn’t be enough for him to ascend? And he would need to devour countless other planets after that. Considering Kaguya was able to destroy her dimension without absorbing all the energy from the Infinite Tsukuyomi, the energy from Earth pales in comparison to what is needed to achieve godhood.

 

[Godernet]

Hmm, are you saying based on Isshiki’s statement, even after code absorbs all the energy on Earth, it still wouldn’t be enough for him to ascend?

That’s practically what his statement implies.

And he would need to devour countless other planets after that. Considering Kaguya was able to destroy her dimension without absorbing all the energy from the Infinite Tsukuyomi, the energy from Earth pales in comparison to what is needed to achieve godhood.

Mhm

Otsutsuki Godhood > All of the energy on Earth

 

[Samlex1234]

That’s practically what his statement implies.

Mhm

Otsutsuki Godhood > All of the energy on Earth

Wait Net just to get you clearly are you saying Kaguya did not evolve after the IT energy that she absorbed ?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Evolution would require a physical change rather than stat upgrades which occur via extra chakra, we have seen what evolution looks like and kaguya possesses none of that, this change is drastically superior