Shenhe Tiering + Genshin Upgrade (Venti, Zhongli, Xiao, Andrius, Azhdaha (Genshin CRT) [NEW CRT IS NOW OUT]

[Shey]

I request you read the second sentence of my post.

He scales to god's because he was a legendary beast?, I was reading through books and even the cliffhanger commission but couldn't find anything about it being on a god's level

 

[Wdinatx]

He scales to god's because he was a legendary beast?, I was reading through books and even the cliffhanger commission but couldn't find anything about it being on a god's level

It’s in Beidou’s Vison story.
”Liyue and Inazuma share a common saying: ’Its fins formed the ocean deep, its tail the mountains high.‘ The fishermen learned this phrase while ashore long ago, and sang it over and over, spreading the tune far and wide till it became the much-loved song people know today. Whenever the mists gather over the sea's surface, one can hear the distant song of the fishermen hidden in the white shroud: ’its fins formed the oceans deep, its tail the mountains high...’

This was Beidou's childhood lullaby. The tale of Rex Lapis smiting the sea monsters had become legendary among the people of Liyue. As a child, Beidou loved tales like this, and in her dreams, she thought: ‘One day, I want to see this big fish too.’”

The ”ocean deep” and “mountains high” is obviously flowery language but the important part is that their defeat is directly associated with Rex Lapis rather than the Adepti in general, which would imply that it’s in a similar vein of power as the many gods he’s sealed.

 

[Shey]

It’s in Beidou’s Vison story.
”Liyue and Inazuma share a common saying: ’Its fins formed the ocean deep, its tail the mountains high.‘ The fishermen learned this phrase while ashore long ago, and sang it over and over, spreading the tune far and wide till it became the much-loved song people know today. Whenever the mists gather over the sea's surface, one can hear the distant song of the fishermen hidden in the white shroud: ’its fins formed the oceans deep, its tail the mountains high...’

This was Beidou's childhood lullaby. The tale of Rex Lapis smiting the sea monsters had become legendary among the people of Liyue. As a child, Beidou loved tales like this, and in her dreams, she thought: ‘One day, I want to see this big fish too.’”

The ”ocean deep” and “mountains high” is obviously flowery language but the important part is that their defeat is directly associated with Rex Lapis rather than the Adepti in general, which would imply that it’s in a similar vein of power as the many gods he’s sealed.

Okay, I see it now it just struck odd to me that Xiao and Beidou share the same tier

 

[Wdinatx]

Okay, I see it now it just struck odd to me that Xiao and Beidou share the same tier

Xiao ultimately is scaling from Beidou rather than the other way around. I’m not as confident as most when it comes to his stoic explanation of her being impressive meaning he’s stronger but given a lack of Xiao fighting non-fodder enemies both on and offscreen I’d say it’s probably for the best.

 

[Naito-desu]

Alright, I've come upon some new info that could change this, so I might recalculate this and see what this yields, then we can revive discussion on this CRT

 

[Pikaman]

Woah a lot happened while I was gone

 

[Pikaman]

Hi, I don't know if this helps

(New) Shenhe freezes a large wave

vsbattles.fandom.com

This definitely looks a lot better than my calc, but I feel like we’d still be better off using the Andrius Calc scaling for Map px to actual distance conversions?

 

[Naito-desu]

The post I sent above is the most accurate in my opinion in terms of scaling given it covers the nuances of the distances in-game vs in-lore and uses original Chinese translation to get a sense of distnace, I roughly crunched the numbers and it put Shenhe at 7-A

 

[Pikaman]

Xiao ultimately is scaling from Beidou rather than the other way around. I’m not as confident as most when it comes to his stoic explanation of her being impressive meaning he’s stronger but given a lack of Xiao fighting non-fodder enemies both on and offscreen I’d say it’s probably for the best.

Xiao is definitely stronger than Beidou, it’s a fact of his biology as one of the strongest Adepti, the fact he isn’t “At least High 7-A, potentially higher” based on the current scaling already suprises me tbh

 

[Pikaman]

The post I sent above is the most accurate in my opinion in terms of scaling given it covers the nuances of the distances in-game vs in-lore and uses original Chinese translation to get a sense of distnace, I roughly crunched the numbers and it put Shenhe at 7-A

Well if that’s accurate there isn’t really much to be done in terms of characters already with profiles, right? Only thing I can possibly see is Shenhe’s similar god slaying feat* when compared to Beidou’s meaning that Beidou is downgraded to 7-A, while Xiao got downgraded to “7-A, likely much higher” (this is a complete stretch but I’m just throwing something out)

*The fact that the God Shenhe faced was technically only a manifestation of a God’s anger, and thus not completely comparable to an actual God, should be negated by the fact that this feat happened before Shenhe received training from the Adepti, and while she was much younger, giving room for significant growth, and an opportunity to catch up to Beidou

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Well if that’s accurate there isn’t really much to be done in terms of characters already with profiles, right? Only thing I can possibly see is Shenhe’s similar god slaying feat* when compared to Beidou’s meaning that Beidou is downgraded to 7-A, while Xiao got downgraded to “7-A, likely much higher” (this is a complete stretch but I’m just throwing something out)

*The fact that the God Shenhe faced was technically only a manifestation of a God’s anger, and thus not completely comparable to an actual God, should be negated by the fact that this feat happened before Shenhe received training from the Adepti, and while she was much younger, giving room for significant growth, and an opportunity to catch up to Beidou

Do we even have any idea exactly how strong a black seelie is? Beidou and Xiao's Attack Potency justifications are independent from Shenhe, so I don't think that her rating would really affect them unless it is higher than what they currently have.

 

[Pikaman]

Do we even have any idea exactly how strong a black seelie is?

Not particularly, there’s a potential they’re corrupted by the abyss? Which would likely have them infused with magic from Low 7-B Abyss Mages

There’s a small potential that they scale to what Seelie once were, before they became Wisp like creatures, which according to a loading screen hint, made them “a mighty race that lived to guide mankind” which sounds similar to the role that Adepti like Xiao (High 7-A) have/had over the people of Liyue Harbour.

 

[Naito-desu]

That's highly speculative, until we know more about it, it sounds like a stretch to put them at High 7-A just because of that.

 

[Pikaman]

That's highly speculative, until we know more about it, it sounds like a stretch to put them at High 7-A just because of that.

Oh yeah agreed, we definitely don’t have the info we need to put a proper tiering on Black Seelie, still, a little speculation never hurt anyone

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Not particularly, there’s a potential they’re corrupted by the abyss? Which would likely have them infused with magic from 7-B Abyss Mages

There’s a small potential that they scale to what Seelie once were, before they became Wisp like creatures, which according to a loading screen hint, made them “a mighty race that lived to guide mankind” which sounds similar to the role that Adepti like Xiao (High 7-A) have/had over the people of Liyue Harbour.

These Abyss Mages aren't 7-B, they are Low 7-B.

 

[Pikaman]

These Abyss Mages aren't 7-B, they are Low 7-B.

OOP YEAH YOU’RE RIGHT

 

[Pikaman]

OOP YEAH YOU’RE RIGHT

Edited the post

 

[Wdinatx]

Well if that’s accurate there isn’t really much to be done in terms of characters already with profiles, right? Only thing I can possibly see is Shenhe’s similar god slaying feat* when compared to Beidou’s meaning that Beidou is downgraded to 7-A, while Xiao got downgraded to “7-A, likely much higher” (this is a complete stretch but I’m just throwing something out)

*The fact that the God Shenhe faced was technically only a manifestation of a God’s anger, and thus not completely comparable to an actual God, should be negated by the fact that this feat happened before Shenhe received training from the Adepti, and while she was much younger, giving room for significant growth, and an opportunity to catch up to Beidou

Given how they're a god who's lost most of their power I'd say they're on the level of Boreas and/or Dvalin given the similar circumstance. Dvalin isn't (as far as I recall) a god but his feats against Durin lead me to believe he was on that level those 500 years ago.

 

[Pikaman]

Given how they're a god who's lost most of their power I'd say they're on the level of Boreas and/or Dvalin given the similar circumstance. Dvalin isn't (as far as I recall) a god but his feats against Durin lead me to believe he was on that level those 500 years ago.

This makes sense but it still feels a bit speculative

 

[Nehz_XZX]

This makes sense but it still feels a bit speculative to try and justify 6-C, especially given the can of worms that opens for scaling (previously mentioned in OG Post)

Wouldn't Andrius' weakened state be the Lupus Boreas key which is 7-B?

 

[Wdinatx]

This makes sense but it still feels a bit speculative to try and justify 6-C, especially given the can of worms that opens for scaling (previously mentioned in OG Post)

Um, that's 7-B. I meant now that they lost their power they're still able to be on the level of Liyue Traveler and really strong vision wielders respectively.

 

[Pikaman]

Um, that's 7-B. I meant now that they lost their power they're still able to be on the level of Liyue Traveler and really strong vision wielders respectively.

I keep on doing this I got the keys mixed up…. sorry

 

[Pikaman]

Bump

 

[Rikimarox2]

So uh, what's the conclusion here?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

So uh, what's the conclusion here?

Losing 50/50 again.

Jokes aside regardless of the verse, I'm always dubious of upgrades that scale to a feat preformed by someone that doesn't have a profile (A classic pitfall into circular scaling) so at the very least Shenhe needs a profile first before reaching a conclusion.

 

[Wdinatx]

So uh, what's the conclusion here?

IDK.

 

[Naito-desu]

Jokes aside regardless of the verse, I'm always dubious of upgrades that scale to a feat preformed by someone that doesn't have a profile (A classic pitfall into circular scaling) so at the very least Shenhe needs a profile first before reaching a conclusion.

I already have the profile ready here, but I also didn't want to release it until all the feats are finalized (Class K, Wave-freezing, etc.)

 

[Pikaman]

So uh, what's the conclusion here?

So far:

-Original calc putting Shenhe at 6-C has been rejected

-Other Calcs putting Shenhe from Low 7-B to 7-A are being discussed

-If we can’t agree on any singular calc, scaling to Low 7-B or high 7-A with the Black Seelie feat from Abyss Mages or Beidou respectively is on the table

Consequences for other characters?

Low 7-B:

Two Options

-No Changes

-Potential (Unlikely) downgrades for Beidou and Xiao from High 7-A to 7-B, with some sort of “likely/potentially higher/far higher” added onto the end.

7-A

-Same potential changes as before just swapping out 7-B downgrades to 7-A for the second option

High 7-A

Two Options

-No Changes

-Xiao Upgrade to “High 7-A, potentially higher” (this should honestly already be a thing tbh)



My own personal pet peeves that I wanna bring up while a Genshin CRT is up?

The Archons at least and potentially the other God Tier Characters should be at “6-C, potentially higher”, as there isn’t really that much to suggest they should be significantly weaker than Raiden Shogun, all 3 of them standing victorious in the Archon War. This probably isn’t a popular opinion but I don’t get the disparity between Raiden Shogun and the other Archons when all 3 very clearly showed themselves capable of defeating some of the Archon War’s greatest threats and other Powerful Gods (Decabrian, Osial, etc)

 

[Pikaman]

Losing 50/50 again.

Jokes aside regardless of the verse, I'm always dubious of upgrades that scale to a feat preformed by someone that doesn't have a profile (A classic pitfall into circular scaling) so at the very least Shenhe needs a profile first before reaching a conclusion.

Agreed

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I already have the profile ready here, but I also didn't want to release it until all the feats are finalized (Class K, Wave-freezing, etc.)

I still don't think that Shenhe should scale to Xiao or other master adepti and we should also consider the fact that Beisht was weakened by the new type of Guizhong Ballista that was used against her.

So far:

-Original calc putting Shenhe at 6-C has been rejected

-Other Calcs putting Shenhe from Low 7-B to 7-A are being discussed

-If we can’t agree on any singular calc, scaling to Low 7-B or high 7-A with the Black Seelie feat from Abyss Mages or Beidou respectively is on the table

Consequences for other characters?

Low 7-B:

Two Options

-No Changes

-Potential (Unlikely) downgrades for Beidou and Xiao from High 7-A to 7-B, with some sort of “likely/potentially higher/far higher” added onto the end.

7-A

-Same potential changes as before just swapping out 7-B downgrades to 7-A for the second option

High 7-A

Two Options

-No Changes

-Xiao Upgrade to “High 7-A, potentially higher” (this should honestly already be a thing tbh)



My own personal pet peeves that I wanna bring up while a Genshin CRT is up?

The Archons at least and potentially the other God Tier Characters should be at “6-C, potentially higher”, as there isn’t really that much to suggest they should be significantly weaker than Raiden Shogun, all 3 of them standing victorious in the Archon War. This probably isn’t a popular opinion but I don’t get the disparity between Raiden Shogun and the other Archons when all 3 very clearly showed themselves capable of defeating some of the Archon War’s greatest threats and other Powerful Gods (Decabrian, Osial, etc)

Xiao and Beidou don't rely on Shenhe for their scaling, so them being downgraded because of Shenhe being weaker than High 7-A shouldn't even be up to debate.

I wouldn't be opposed to that since all of the Archons scale above Andrius' 6-C feat.

 

[Pikaman]

Xiao and Beidou don't rely on Shenhe for their scaling, so them being downgraded because of Shenhe being weaker than High 7-A shouldn't even be up to debate.

I’m discussing those downgrades (even though I’m personally leaning closer to disagreeing with them) because Beidou’s feat is defeating a Sea Monster comparable to the Gods (which btw, uses an outdated calc that has since upgraded the God Tier? Food for thought on that one)

One of Shenhe’s feats is defeating a black seelie, stated to be a manifestation of a God’s Anger, when she was a young child. Since her and Beidou’s feats are virtually the same, if Shenhe was only 7-B/7-A, then Beidou’s justification for High 7-A falls flat since characters with similar feats weren’t capable of reaching that tier.

Xiao’s tiering is (somehow) reliant on Beidou’s, so similar downgrades would likely happen to him


AGAIN, I disagree with this for several reasons, but I thought it was worth at least discussing.

As for the outdated Beidou Calc scaling, we could either;


A: Upgrade Beidou and Xiao to 6-C, and at that point there’s no excuse not to upgrade the God tier to “6-C, potentially/likely higher”

(This one sucks tbh)



B: Keep everything the same, assuming that the Sea Monster was being compared to weaker Gods that lost the Archon War in the lore, rather than, y’know, the 7 strongest Gods there are?



What I do agree with is that because of the similarities between Beidou and Shenhe’s feats, stuff like Low 7-B, if that’s what we ended up with, should have “Likely far higher” attached to it.

There’s enough difference that I disagree with direct scaling, but not enough difference we shouldn’t consider Beidou’s scaling when looking at a tier for Shenhe

 

[Pikaman]

I still don't think that Shenhe should scale to Xiao or other master adepti .

Agreed, Xiao should upscale fairly handily to Shenhe

 

[Pikaman]

we should also consider the fact that Beisht was weakened by the new type of Guizhong Ballista that was used against her

Also agreed, we should really try and reach a consensus on a calc for the Tsunami because trying to scale Shenhe and Beisht to others is really awkward and clunky, especially given how Beidou’s outdated profile kinda throws most of the Genshin High/God tier scaling slightly off.

 

[Pikaman]

Alright, I've come upon some new info that could change this, so I might recalculate this and see what this yields, then we can revive discussion on this CRT

Also need to potentially consider ANOTHER re-calc of the Andrius feat using this info

 

[Pikaman]

It does tho need to be noted that the Beidou scaled to calc I’m talking about isn’t technically fully outdated or re-calced, it just places a 6-C character at High 7-A which means it’s a bad calc to use when scaling

 

[Pikaman]

And the last thing I need to say is that there is an upcoming update which is seemingly going to give us a much better idea of the Raiden Shogun’s strength, so there’s a case to be made that we should hold fire until then?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I’m discussing those downgrades (even though I’m personally leaning closer to disagreeing with them) because Beidou’s feat is defeating a Sea Monster comparable to the Gods (which btw, uses an outdated calc that has since upgraded the God Tier? Food for thought on that one)

One of Shenhe’s feats is defeating a black seelie, stated to be a manifestation of a God’s Anger, when she was a young child. Since her and Beidou’s feats are virtually the same, if Shenhe was only 7-B/7-A, then Beidou’s justification for High 7-A falls flat since characters with similar feats weren’t capable of reaching that tier.

What Shenhe fought was a god's remains and these remains do not necessarily need to be as strong as the god they used to be. For example, we rate an eroded Azhdaha as weaker than his prime. This isn't even going into how there is little information on the god in question and the black seelie and therefore how strong it was with the only things we can know for sure being that it most likely wasn't weak and that it must have been quite dangerous.

PS: You shouldn't spam the thread with your comments. You can always edit your prior comments to add something that you forgot and it's perfectly possible to quote multiple other comments in one comment.

 

[Pikaman]

What Shenhe fought was a god's remains and these remains do not necessarily need to be as strong as the god they used to be. For example, we rate an eroded Azhdaha as weaker than his prime. This isn't even going into how there is little information on the god in question and the black seelie and therefore how strong it was with the only things we can know for sure being that it most likely wasn't weak and that it must have been quite dangerous.

Fair enough

 

[Wdinatx]

Given how they're a god who's lost most of their power I'd say they're on the level of Boreas and/or Dvalin given the similar circumstance. Dvalin isn't (as far as I recall) a god but his feats against Durin lead me to believe he was on that level those 500 years ago.

Um, that's 7-B. I meant now that they lost their power they're still able to be on the level of Liyue Traveler and really strong vision wielders respectively.

I still stand by my belief that the Black Seelie is as strong as Boreas as a manifestation of a lingering aspect of a dead god. Don’t know what else to say here.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I still stand by my belief that the Black Seelie is as strong as Boreas as a manifestation of a lingering aspect of a dead god. Don’t know what else to say here.

That level of power does make sense to me, so I wouldn't oppose it.