Self-evident intelligence revisions thread

[Jinx666]

Ash is a bit more popular than most characters so i'll wait if anyone immediate has any objections but otherwise hope its fine to apply

 

[Arceus0x]

Whilst I agree that he shouldn't be an Extraordinary Genius, he should be at least a Genius in Pokemon Battles. His tactics and mind process broke a robot made for Pokemon battles, he has beaten several Cynthia, Leon and Steven, all of whom have a solid decade (or more) of battling under their belt and who have developed unique strategies that dominate their opponents. Ash at the end of Journeys ranked at the very top of the World Championship, going above 10000 of the most skilled trainers. During Journeys he outplayed several E4 members or those on a similar level to them. He has adapted to and outsmarted over 40 Gym leaders, all of whom fight on pretty much a constant basis.

I think that Ash should have different ratings though. In gen 1 through 3 I can see Gifted which shifts further and further as in Battle Frontier and Gen 4 he faces opponents who are extremely talented or well above him in raw power. I'd say

Gifted (Indigo League to Advanced Battle) | At least Gifted (Battle Frontier to end of Unova) | Genius (XY to Current)

 

[Arceus0x]

The Supercomputer feat on his profile was a robot built by Clemont, whose inventions frequently combust, self-destruct and dont work right as a gag, so its not fair to say Ash is just incomprehensible for overwhelming it.

Many of his "random bullshit go" type gadgets blow up. His actual serious inventions work perfectly. As a child (Clemont is like 10-12 in the series so think when he was like 7-8) he built a city-wide system that can charge Electric Pokemon and it worked amazingly for years on end until TR screwed with it. His robot was specifically made to analyze combat and become more and more skilled. I agree it's not Supercomputer level but it is a highly advanced AI that still nearly fried itself trying to understand Ash.

 

[Jinx666]

Many of his "random bullshit go" type gadgets blow up. His actual serious inventions work perfectly. As a child (Clemont is like 10-12 in the series so think when he was like 7-8) he built a city-wide system that can charge Electric Pokemon and it worked amazingly for years on end until TR screwed with it. His robot was specifically made to analyze combat and become more and more skilled. I agree it's not Supercomputer level but it is a highly advanced AI that still nearly fried itself trying to understand Ash.

Still doesnt qualify for Extraordinary Genius but like, as much as Clemont is an intelligent inventor (his age doesnt necessarily matter, it just shows his potential), the anime version at leats made it a huge, consistent gag in itself that his inventions have a lot of flaws and will blow up over the slightest overload. This can speak to Ash against the average trainer, but it creates a huge level of uncertainty given Clemonts track record. Clemont works on a trial and error basis rather than getting things right the first time.

Clemont gets Genius in his general engineering and intellectual prowess, but that obv doesnt translate to his Pokemon battling (hes skilled at it as a gym leader but not to that level. You'd say he was smarter intellectually than someone like Diantha but shes a better Pokemon trainer than him in every way as the champion). Either way, this at its core says that Ash is just extremely unpredictable which doesnt necessarily mean you're super smart. We know Ash is strategic but its not something he thinks about deeply. He thinks of things on the fly and can stick to it. This doesnt translate to his Intelligence and more that he has a slight resistance to Analytical Prediction for example

As for the rest of your points.
1) Gifted works well for beating characters who simply have decades more experience than you, and Ash's ingenuity. You dont need to be a genius to do any of what you described. and its not like Ash cakewalked the Masters 8 (Fell for Cynthia's destiny bond, Leon had him on the ropes and was more disadvantaged in that fight for letting Ash use all 3 of his gimmicks). None of the characters you listed qualify for Genius really either, and the Cynthia Anime profile lists her as Gifted (I wrote that profile tbf but she genuinely hasnt shown Genius capability. Shes intelligent but the series never elaborates by how much). He's never outwardly portrayed as someone thats just in a league of his own either, and works very much on instinct and adaptability.
2) Ash varies a lot more in what region. He's a lot dumber in Unova for example (for whatever reason) than prior regions and he hasn't dont anything completely unfathomable, even someone like Fantina or Paul could copy his unique techniques such as the counter shield just by observation. While there should be separate ratings for his time in other regions, that'd need a whole CRT. Heck, Ash is the sorta character, like Goku and Naruto, that could qualify for multiple timeskip profiles

 

[Arceus0x]

Still doesnt qualify for Extraordinary Genius but like, as much as Clemont is an intelligent inventor (his age doesnt necessarily matter, it just shows his potential), the anime version at leats made it a huge, consistent gag in itself that his inventions have a lot of flaws and will blow up over the slightest overload. This can speak to Ash against the average trainer, but it creates a huge level of uncertainty given Clemonts track record. Clemont works on a trial and error basis rather than getting things right the first time.

Not only are you again arguing about his failed inventions, the robot was very much something that went through trial and error, he pretty much perfected it once he got the Gym back. Just because his RiceCooker5000 he made somewhere along the way blew up doesn't mean the robot he carefully worked on for weeks or months in a lab is gonna do the same. When it matters, his inventions work.

Clemont gets Genius in his general engineering and intellectual prowess, but that obv doesnt translate to his Pokemon battling (hes skilled at it as a gym leader but not to that level. You'd say he was smarter intellectually than someone like Diantha but shes a better Pokemon trainer than him in every way as the champion). Either way, this at its core says that Ash is just extremely unpredictable which doesnt necessarily mean you're super smart. We know Ash is strategic but its not something he thinks about deeply. He thinks of things on the fly and can stick to it. This doesnt translate to his Intelligence and more that he has a slight resistance to Analytical Prediction for example

Not really. The robot's task was specifically to try and comperhend his style and it failed. I never said Clemont's intellect scales to his battle prowess.

Being unpredictable and capable of thinking on his feat isn't an intelligence antifeat. Being able to think in action is also something that can qualify for Genius intelligence. He doesn't do it on instinct, he does it when he is pushed. A great example is Luffy who can think up of wild solutions to extreme situations on the fly. He gets Genius combat intellect despite the fact that normally he is an utter dunce. Being creative in a situation where its do or die is very much a measurable aspect of combat intelligence.
This is what the page says
"Combat skill encompasses a range of factors that together describe how well a person can fight. This includes not only how effectively they use their abilities, but also whether they can apply them in ways that usually require special training or practice, as seen in martial arts. It covers aspects such as knowledge of fighting techniques, variety in combat styles, precision, experience, strategy, prediction, information processing, learning ability, and more."

He has trained unique techniques and tactics, he has figured out strategies on the spot, he has precision in figuring out the timing of his opponents tactics and can predict them (think Olympia fight), he constantly learns from battles, he has figured out peculiar and unique tactics and strategies and more. He fits.

As for the rest of your points.
1) Gifted works well for beating characters who simply have decades more experience than you, and Ash's ingenuity. You dont need to be a genius to do any of what you described. and its not like Ash cakewalked the Masters 8 (Fell for Cynthia's destiny bond, Leon had him on the ropes and was more disadvantaged in that fight for letting Ash use all 3 of his gimmicks). None of the characters you listed qualify for Genius really either, and the Cynthia Anime profile lists her as Gifted (I wrote that profile tbf but she genuinely hasnt shown Genius capability. Shes intelligent but the series never elaborates by how much). He's never outwardly portrayed as someone thats just in a league of his own either, and works very much on instinct and adaptability.

Despite falling for strategies he did manage to get out of them on the fly without prior analysis. Just because you made Cynthia a bum doesn't mean it makes her intelligence rating legit.

2) Ash varies a lot more in what region. He's a lot dumber in Unova for example (for whatever reason) than prior regions and he hasn't dont anything completely unfathomable, even someone like Fantina or Paul could copy his unique techniques such as the counter shield just by observation. While there should be separate ratings for his time in other regions, that'd need a whole CRT. Heck, Ash is the sorta character, like Goku and Naruto, that could qualify for multiple timeskip profiles

Unova is just a major outlier in basically everything. It feels like a gap because the moment he gets to XY he gets immediately way better after gym 1.

 

[Jinx666]

Not only are you again arguing about his failed inventions, the robot was very much something that went through trial and error, he pretty much perfected it once he got the Gym back. Just because his RiceCooker5000 he made somewhere along the way blew up doesn't mean the robot he carefully worked on for weeks or months in a lab is gonna do the same. When it matters, his inventions work.

And sadly, with no consistency theres no concrete proof this is the exact case for Ash. Hes not Extraordinary Genius leve

This is official description: " Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits. At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Intelligence#cite_note-1"><span>[</span>Note 1<span>]</span></a> and even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations. This is where super scientists of exceptional scientific knowledge begin to appear."

Not really. The robot's task was specifically to try and comperhend his style and it failed. I never said Clemont's intellect scales to his battle prowess.

Okay so theres no arguemnt for Genius then, cause Clemont isnt Extraordinary Genius even with that. The whole scene follows the same gag throughout the whole series, if Ash was incomprehensible he wouldnt be losing multiple times afterwards.

Being unpredictable and capable of thinking on his feat isn't an intelligence antifeat. Being able to think in action is also something that can qualify for Genius intelligence. He doesn't do it on instinct, he does it when he is pushed. A great example is Luffy who can think up of wild solutions to extreme situations on the fly. He gets Genius combat intellect despite the fact that normally he is an utter dunce. Being creative in a situation where its do or die is very much a measurable aspect of combat intelligence.
This is what the page says
"Combat skill encompasses a range of factors that together describe how well a person can fight. This includes not only how effectively they use their abilities, but also whether they can apply them in ways that usually require special training or practice, as seen in martial arts. It covers aspects such as knowledge of fighting techniques, variety in combat styles, precision, experience, strategy, prediction, information processing, learning ability, and more."

Okay name one thing you think hes a Genius at. Making up neew ways to enact moves on the fly isnt on that level btw.

He has trained unique techniques and tactics, he has figured out strategies on the spot, he has precision in figuring out the timing of his opponents tactics and can predict them (think Olympia fight), he constantly learns from battles, he has figured out peculiar and unique tactics and strategies and more. He fits.

Why does that fit Genius? Olympia is Gym-Leader level. not E4, or Champion level.

Despite falling for strategies he did manage to get out of them on the fly without prior analysis. Just because you made Cynthia a bum doesn't mean it makes her intelligence rating legit.

You say that but name one thing that Cynthia, Ash or even Leon has done that goes by this wiki's standards of 'Genius'. Being really good at something perfectly qualifies under Gifted, but Genius is on an unparalleled level. Ash is still very much paralleled.

Unova is just a major outlier in basically everything. It feels like a gap because the moment he gets to XY he gets immediately way better after gym 1.

Its not an outlier just cause its inconvenient. It's solid proof of his inconsistent episodic proof of his skill as a trainer. he still beats gym leaders and as of S/M gets to Champion/E4 level but theres still many flaws and he doesnt completely outshine

Can you name any other feats that put him on this level other than the Clemont computer-explosion one? (his inventions explode as an entire series-gag?)
If not, Gifted fits

 

[Arceus0x]

Will reply later

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Can you name any other feats that put him on this level other than the Clemont computer-explosion one?

This might come close, funnily enough it's from Unova lol

 

[Antvasima]

Based on the above information, Genius seems fine as a compromise solution for Ash.

 

[Jinx666]

This might come close, funnily enough it's from Unova lol

imgur, cant see it
EDIT: Managed to see it and like, i guess its a showing of angles but this dude in the same prior battles lost against a Panpour with Pikachu.

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind. Can each side summarise the evidence for and against a Genius rating please?

 

[Jinx666]

Never mind. Can each side summarise the evidence for and against a Genius rating please?

My side is that everything Ash has simply proven is perfectly fine for 'At least Gifted', at least for a self-evident rating outside of any major CRT project. Genius is a very big stretch other than just the vibes of a 25+ year running protag. Ash is Gifted, and his battling is also somewhat realistic with the ups and downs he's had to face as opposed to just being someone like a Genius who is unparalleled and climbed to their ranks so effortlessly.

The main argument Ash gets is the fact Clemont's robot exploded when trying to adjust to his battle strategy, but with context applied:
A) Its a frequent common running gag in the series that Clemont's inventions will explode and overload, even at the most minor things. As such, we cant trust the true integrity that its really Ash's 'strategic ability' that purely overloaded the robot. Clemont is smart but we cant act as if his stuff frequently doesnt blow up on its own.
B) This strategic ability of Ash's is a lot more imbedded in his adaptability and quick-fly strategies. Being simply hard to predict isn't necessarily a feat of Genius intelligence. This robot can also battle and is capable of losing to skilled enough trainers

Not only this, but his intelligence is very inconsistent, namely Gen 5 anime where he's had some pretty embarassing losses and showings. Being able to make up moves on the fly and apply some of the anime's infamous unique moves (which are absent from the games) is good but not genius level. Ash's strategies have easily been replicated by other characters in a single battle so its not like they're hard to pull off.

Im sure with a full gathering of Ash's best feats he could possibly be rated Genius, which in itself intelligence ratings are just ballparks, but without a proper compilation and the main argument for it being flawed then I think Gifted fits a lot better. Just not Extraordinary Genius

 

[Antvasima]

So would "At least Gifted, possibly Genius" be the safest/most reliable rating for Ash?

 

[Arceus0x]

And sadly, with no consistency theres no concrete proof this is the exact case for Ash. Hes not Extraordinary Genius leve

Sure, but he should be Genius in his later keys

This is official description: " Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits. At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Intelligence#cite_note-1"><span>[</span>Note 1<span>]</span></a> and even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations. This is where super scientists of exceptional scientific knowledge begin to appear."

Brother you did not read the skill description, you only read the common intelligence description. You opened the page and yet you didn't look in the right spot.

Okay so theres no arguemnt for Genius then, cause Clemont isnt Extraordinary Genius even with that. The whole scene follows the same gag throughout the whole series, if Ash was incomprehensible he wouldnt be losing multiple times afterwards.

Gag this gag that is that like your only argument for everything? Clemonts inventions work perfectly when he puts serious effort into them. The robot in question is a highly advanced AI that not only has learning capabilities to make him similarly skilled to a gym leader but also has complete control over the systems of an entire high-end mechanical tower. It short-curcuiting when trying to understand Ash isn't a gag of Clemont being incompetent, it is a gag of Ash being so unpredictable that even a computer struggles with him.

Okay name one thing you think hes a Genius at. Making up neew ways to enact moves on the fly isnt on that level btw.

SKILL. HE IS GENIUS IN POKEMON BATTLES. How hard is it to understand that combat IQ and normal IQ aren't the same thing? He isn't a genius in the sense that he can build a rocket, he is genius in the sense that he is damn good at training mons.

Why does that fit Genius? Olympia is Gym-Leader level. not E4, or Champion level.

Just further proves you didn't even watch the anime where the supposed 'Clemont being incompetent' argument comes from. Ash's battle against Olympia had him on the ropes at first due to a combo strategy where the Meowstics used Future Sight and a combo of thunder wave, helping hand and dark pulse to pretty much position the opponent and then obliterate them in a predicted spot. Whilst in a tight spot Ash used Pikachu as a sort of timer to calculate when the next attack will be and then proceeded to turn the positioning strategy on Olympia, placing Meowstic under their own attack with a clever use of moves. This is a blatant skill level that supports quick strategic thinking and that's just a single battle. He improves even further during SM and Journeys.

You say that but name one thing that Cynthia, Ash or even Leon has done that goes by this wiki's standards of 'Genius'. Being really good at something perfectly qualifies under Gifted, but Genius is on an unparalleled level. Ash is still very much paralleled.

Again with the misunderstanding between skill and actual normal intelligence. This isn't about normal intelligence, this is about pokemon battle skill level, and for a Pokemon trainer, Cynthia, one of the top champions, and Leon, the actual top champion of the world.

Its not an outlier just cause its inconvenient. It's solid proof of his inconsistent episodic proof of his skill as a trainer. he still beats gym leaders and as of S/M gets to Champion/E4 level but theres still many flaws and he doesnt completely outshine

Flaws aren't evidence of him being dumb, a genius can make mistakes. An outlier is an outlier and Unova is basically the outlier of the whole damn series with the authors dumbing down Ash to the point where he folds to fodder. This doesn't happen in the season after and at most something similar happened in like season 1 when he was still a newbie.

Can you name any other feats that put him on this level other than the Clemont computer-explosion one? (his inventions explode as an entire series-gag?)
If not, Gifted fits

It is a feat that should be counted. Just because you think its a gag doesn't mean it actually is one.

 

[Arceus0x]

So would "At least Gifted, possibly Genius" be the safest/most reliable rating for Ash?

Alright so hear me out first before we jump to decisions. Let me summarize my points

-Clemont's robot frying itself trying to understand Ash is not a gag of his incompetence it is an example of Ash being so unpredictable that it's impossible for a computer to properly grasp him

-The disagreement about intelligence comes from an inherent misunderstanding of the difference between battle IQ and normal IQ, something we've been differentiating for years.

-Ash is Average in normal intellect as a kid, he is Genius in Pokemon Battles.

-Ash has shown so far
*Strategic thinking that allows perfect timing strategies to be executed like in the Olympia match I linked above
*He used an ineffective move to trick an opponent into missing an attack only to then use said attack to counter the opponent
*Trapped and manhandled one of Steven's (champion of Hoenn's) Cradily but coming up with a strategy against it on the spot
*Figured out a strategy to beat Grappoloct's Octolock which is essentially a jiu-jitsu grappling hold with 8 tentacles, making it better than some of the advanced techniques used by actual martial artists
*Used water shurikens as a smoke screen to bypass Diantha's gardevoir who was actively predicting every move he was using
*Beat several trained Metagross (including Steven's) that are canonically as smart as a supercomputer and predict every move as well.
*Constantly uses advantage of the terrain to the point where he can even use opponent's attacks as a way to hide his Pokemon. He also uses falling debris to jump into the sky to get an aerial advantage. He then uses a modified strategy with Iron tail to do the same with meteors. This is all on the spot spontaneous strategic thinking.

This is just some feats I brought up that I found interesting. In here there's dozens more of various cases of him using everything from terrain to actual moves to anything else to get an advantage and completely outwitting trainers that have anywhere from a decade to several decades of consistent combat experience.

I think he should be Average normally, but his skill as a Pokemon Trainer being anything below genius is an insult.

 

[Jinx666]

The underlying anger aside

A) I know what Combat skill is. We're debating Ash's skill as a Pokemon trainer. Im not talking about any other intelligence type. It still matters nonetheless that Ash's skill at that would have to compare to Genius standards. Please stop making it up that i'm not differentiating the two
B) The Clemont invention exploding gag is...just undisputedly a gag thats seen throughout the entire series. That isnt just in 'my opinion', it flat out is. Unfortunately it provides scrutiny in cases like this as Clemont's inventions aren't reliable.
C) I know about Ash's other skill feats, i just dont think they qualify under Genius.
D) I don't think an entire arc of the series becomes an outlier. Its bad writing sure, but its unfortunately canon. We cant cherrypick the best and not consider the worst, and sadly its no outlier when there are consistent antifeats for Ash.

EDIT: Pokemon rely on their trainers to fight and call commands. Something like Metagross, Alakazam etc are super smart on paper but they still follow the guide of their trainer. I don't think just because someone can defeat a Metagross, that doesnt apply its superior intelligence in battle blatantly (or its relying on a trainer to lead it) works for scaling

 

[Thunderman101]

Hope mikealson has a gifted rating with nothing to back it up https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Hope_Mikaelson

 

[Arceus0x]

The underlying anger aside

A) I know what Combat skill is. We're debating Ash's skill as a Pokemon trainer. Im not talking about any other intelligence type. It still matters nonetheless that Ash's skill at that compares to the Genius standards

Yes, and it shouldn't be treated the same as normal intelligence. A genius in chess doesn't need knowledge of various sciences or fields to be a genius in chess.

B) The Clemont invention exploding gag is...just undisputedly a gag thats seen throughout the entire series. That isnt just in 'my opinion', it flat out is. Unfortunately it provides scrutiny in cases like this as Clemont's inventions aren't reliable.

And I already proved why his inventions are reliable when there's effort put into them. Again, pikachufinderinator 5000 that he made somewhere along the journey shouldn't fall under the same scrutiny as a project he built overtime at a lab that worked perfectly. It is he who made the robot, it is he who mechanized Lumiouse tower with complex robotic systems, it is he who made a perfectly functioning city-wide system of electricity supply to electric Pokemon. When it matters, his inventions work perfectly, and the robot is one of the things that matter and worked perfectly under normal circumstances.

C) I know about Ash's other skill feats, i just dont think they qualify under Genius.

And I think they do, his vast usage of essentially everything available in a battle and doing so on the spot without any prior prep is perfect support of someone who is a genius in combat.

D) I don't think an entire arc of the series becomes an outlier. Its bad writing sure, but its unfortunately canon. We cant cherrypick the best and not consider the worst, and sadly its no outlier when there are consistent antifeats for Ash.

Lebron had several bad seasons throughout his career. Does that make him any less of a master at basketball? No, it just means he had a bad year. In this case, considering Ash's age, he had a bad month or so and then went back to whooping ass.