Self-evident intelligence revisions thread

[Jinx666]

Ash is a bit more popular than most characters so i'll wait if anyone immediate has any objections but otherwise hope its fine to apply

 

[Arceus0x]

Whilst I agree that he shouldn't be an Extraordinary Genius, he should be at least a Genius in Pokemon Battles. His tactics and mind process broke a robot made for Pokemon battles, he has beaten several Cynthia, Leon and Steven, all of whom have a solid decade (or more) of battling under their belt and who have developed unique strategies that dominate their opponents. Ash at the end of Journeys ranked at the very top of the World Championship, going above 10000 of the most skilled trainers. During Journeys he outplayed several E4 members or those on a similar level to them. He has adapted to and outsmarted over 40 Gym leaders, all of whom fight on pretty much a constant basis.

I think that Ash should have different ratings though. In gen 1 through 3 I can see Gifted which shifts further and further as in Battle Frontier and Gen 4 he faces opponents who are extremely talented or well above him in raw power. I'd say

Gifted (Indigo League to Advanced Battle) | At least Gifted (Battle Frontier to end of Unova) | Genius (XY to Current)

 

[Arceus0x]

The Supercomputer feat on his profile was a robot built by Clemont, whose inventions frequently combust, self-destruct and dont work right as a gag, so its not fair to say Ash is just incomprehensible for overwhelming it.

Many of his "random bullshit go" type gadgets blow up. His actual serious inventions work perfectly. As a child (Clemont is like 10-12 in the series so think when he was like 7-8) he built a city-wide system that can charge Electric Pokemon and it worked amazingly for years on end until TR screwed with it. His robot was specifically made to analyze combat and become more and more skilled. I agree it's not Supercomputer level but it is a highly advanced AI that still nearly fried itself trying to understand Ash.

 

[Jinx666]

Many of his "random bullshit go" type gadgets blow up. His actual serious inventions work perfectly. As a child (Clemont is like 10-12 in the series so think when he was like 7-8) he built a city-wide system that can charge Electric Pokemon and it worked amazingly for years on end until TR screwed with it. His robot was specifically made to analyze combat and become more and more skilled. I agree it's not Supercomputer level but it is a highly advanced AI that still nearly fried itself trying to understand Ash.

Still doesnt qualify for Extraordinary Genius but like, as much as Clemont is an intelligent inventor (his age doesnt necessarily matter, it just shows his potential), the anime version at leats made it a huge, consistent gag in itself that his inventions have a lot of flaws and will blow up over the slightest overload. This can speak to Ash against the average trainer, but it creates a huge level of uncertainty given Clemonts track record. Clemont works on a trial and error basis rather than getting things right the first time.

Clemont gets Genius in his general engineering and intellectual prowess, but that obv doesnt translate to his Pokemon battling (hes skilled at it as a gym leader but not to that level. You'd say he was smarter intellectually than someone like Diantha but shes a better Pokemon trainer than him in every way as the champion). Either way, this at its core says that Ash is just extremely unpredictable which doesnt necessarily mean you're super smart. We know Ash is strategic but its not something he thinks about deeply. He thinks of things on the fly and can stick to it. This doesnt translate to his Intelligence and more that he has a slight resistance to Analytical Prediction for example

As for the rest of your points.
1) Gifted works well for beating characters who simply have decades more experience than you, and Ash's ingenuity. You dont need to be a genius to do any of what you described. and its not like Ash cakewalked the Masters 8 (Fell for Cynthia's destiny bond, Leon had him on the ropes and was more disadvantaged in that fight for letting Ash use all 3 of his gimmicks). None of the characters you listed qualify for Genius really either, and the Cynthia Anime profile lists her as Gifted (I wrote that profile tbf but she genuinely hasnt shown Genius capability. Shes intelligent but the series never elaborates by how much). He's never outwardly portrayed as someone thats just in a league of his own either, and works very much on instinct and adaptability.
2) Ash varies a lot more in what region. He's a lot dumber in Unova for example (for whatever reason) than prior regions and he hasn't dont anything completely unfathomable, even someone like Fantina or Paul could copy his unique techniques such as the counter shield just by observation. While there should be separate ratings for his time in other regions, that'd need a whole CRT. Heck, Ash is the sorta character, like Goku and Naruto, that could qualify for multiple timeskip profiles

 

[Arceus0x]

Still doesnt qualify for Extraordinary Genius but like, as much as Clemont is an intelligent inventor (his age doesnt necessarily matter, it just shows his potential), the anime version at leats made it a huge, consistent gag in itself that his inventions have a lot of flaws and will blow up over the slightest overload. This can speak to Ash against the average trainer, but it creates a huge level of uncertainty given Clemonts track record. Clemont works on a trial and error basis rather than getting things right the first time.

Not only are you again arguing about his failed inventions, the robot was very much something that went through trial and error, he pretty much perfected it once he got the Gym back. Just because his RiceCooker5000 he made somewhere along the way blew up doesn't mean the robot he carefully worked on for weeks or months in a lab is gonna do the same. When it matters, his inventions work.

Clemont gets Genius in his general engineering and intellectual prowess, but that obv doesnt translate to his Pokemon battling (hes skilled at it as a gym leader but not to that level. You'd say he was smarter intellectually than someone like Diantha but shes a better Pokemon trainer than him in every way as the champion). Either way, this at its core says that Ash is just extremely unpredictable which doesnt necessarily mean you're super smart. We know Ash is strategic but its not something he thinks about deeply. He thinks of things on the fly and can stick to it. This doesnt translate to his Intelligence and more that he has a slight resistance to Analytical Prediction for example

Not really. The robot's task was specifically to try and comperhend his style and it failed. I never said Clemont's intellect scales to his battle prowess.

Being unpredictable and capable of thinking on his feat isn't an intelligence antifeat. Being able to think in action is also something that can qualify for Genius intelligence. He doesn't do it on instinct, he does it when he is pushed. A great example is Luffy who can think up of wild solutions to extreme situations on the fly. He gets Genius combat intellect despite the fact that normally he is an utter dunce. Being creative in a situation where its do or die is very much a measurable aspect of combat intelligence.
This is what the page says
"Combat skill encompasses a range of factors that together describe how well a person can fight. This includes not only how effectively they use their abilities, but also whether they can apply them in ways that usually require special training or practice, as seen in martial arts. It covers aspects such as knowledge of fighting techniques, variety in combat styles, precision, experience, strategy, prediction, information processing, learning ability, and more."

He has trained unique techniques and tactics, he has figured out strategies on the spot, he has precision in figuring out the timing of his opponents tactics and can predict them (think Olympia fight), he constantly learns from battles, he has figured out peculiar and unique tactics and strategies and more. He fits.

As for the rest of your points.
1) Gifted works well for beating characters who simply have decades more experience than you, and Ash's ingenuity. You dont need to be a genius to do any of what you described. and its not like Ash cakewalked the Masters 8 (Fell for Cynthia's destiny bond, Leon had him on the ropes and was more disadvantaged in that fight for letting Ash use all 3 of his gimmicks). None of the characters you listed qualify for Genius really either, and the Cynthia Anime profile lists her as Gifted (I wrote that profile tbf but she genuinely hasnt shown Genius capability. Shes intelligent but the series never elaborates by how much). He's never outwardly portrayed as someone thats just in a league of his own either, and works very much on instinct and adaptability.

Despite falling for strategies he did manage to get out of them on the fly without prior analysis. Just because you made Cynthia a bum doesn't mean it makes her intelligence rating legit.

2) Ash varies a lot more in what region. He's a lot dumber in Unova for example (for whatever reason) than prior regions and he hasn't dont anything completely unfathomable, even someone like Fantina or Paul could copy his unique techniques such as the counter shield just by observation. While there should be separate ratings for his time in other regions, that'd need a whole CRT. Heck, Ash is the sorta character, like Goku and Naruto, that could qualify for multiple timeskip profiles

Unova is just a major outlier in basically everything. It feels like a gap because the moment he gets to XY he gets immediately way better after gym 1.

 

[Jinx666]

Not only are you again arguing about his failed inventions, the robot was very much something that went through trial and error, he pretty much perfected it once he got the Gym back. Just because his RiceCooker5000 he made somewhere along the way blew up doesn't mean the robot he carefully worked on for weeks or months in a lab is gonna do the same. When it matters, his inventions work.

And sadly, with no consistency theres no concrete proof this is the exact case for Ash. Hes not Extraordinary Genius leve

This is official description: " Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits. At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Intelligence#cite_note-1"><span>[</span>Note 1<span>]</span></a> and even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations. This is where super scientists of exceptional scientific knowledge begin to appear."

Not really. The robot's task was specifically to try and comperhend his style and it failed. I never said Clemont's intellect scales to his battle prowess.

Okay so theres no arguemnt for Genius then, cause Clemont isnt Extraordinary Genius even with that. The whole scene follows the same gag throughout the whole series, if Ash was incomprehensible he wouldnt be losing multiple times afterwards.

Being unpredictable and capable of thinking on his feat isn't an intelligence antifeat. Being able to think in action is also something that can qualify for Genius intelligence. He doesn't do it on instinct, he does it when he is pushed. A great example is Luffy who can think up of wild solutions to extreme situations on the fly. He gets Genius combat intellect despite the fact that normally he is an utter dunce. Being creative in a situation where its do or die is very much a measurable aspect of combat intelligence.
This is what the page says
"Combat skill encompasses a range of factors that together describe how well a person can fight. This includes not only how effectively they use their abilities, but also whether they can apply them in ways that usually require special training or practice, as seen in martial arts. It covers aspects such as knowledge of fighting techniques, variety in combat styles, precision, experience, strategy, prediction, information processing, learning ability, and more."

Okay name one thing you think hes a Genius at. Making up neew ways to enact moves on the fly isnt on that level btw.

He has trained unique techniques and tactics, he has figured out strategies on the spot, he has precision in figuring out the timing of his opponents tactics and can predict them (think Olympia fight), he constantly learns from battles, he has figured out peculiar and unique tactics and strategies and more. He fits.

Why does that fit Genius? Olympia is Gym-Leader level. not E4, or Champion level.

Despite falling for strategies he did manage to get out of them on the fly without prior analysis. Just because you made Cynthia a bum doesn't mean it makes her intelligence rating legit.

You say that but name one thing that Cynthia, Ash or even Leon has done that goes by this wiki's standards of 'Genius'. Being really good at something perfectly qualifies under Gifted, but Genius is on an unparalleled level. Ash is still very much paralleled.

Unova is just a major outlier in basically everything. It feels like a gap because the moment he gets to XY he gets immediately way better after gym 1.

Its not an outlier just cause its inconvenient. It's solid proof of his inconsistent episodic proof of his skill as a trainer. he still beats gym leaders and as of S/M gets to Champion/E4 level but theres still many flaws and he doesnt completely outshine

Can you name any other feats that put him on this level other than the Clemont computer-explosion one? (his inventions explode as an entire series-gag?)
If not, Gifted fits

 

[Arceus0x]

Will reply later

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Can you name any other feats that put him on this level other than the Clemont computer-explosion one?

This might come close, funnily enough it's from Unova lol

 

[Antvasima]

Based on the above information, Genius seems fine as a compromise solution for Ash.